I forgot more than I know too!
Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?
- Thread starter biminiLX
- Start date
I forgot more than I know too!
He can fight his own fight with you. I just know how you like to push.
Yes he can.
On another note, its all good, I dont want none of that "Tob trouble".....
He’s easily way easier than me.
I just deal with everything around here.
You are definitely more testy. Got that "old man dont put up with no shit" syndrome.
Tob is technical but can be a little biased (like most everyone), it can sometimes cloud his judgement.
Man... you guys are really putting me in a box here. Being friendly with both guys... its like after daddy slapped mommy at the dinner table and now the kids are real quiet, waiting to see what happens next.
The sock drawer will have to wait.
School me on how my "bias" has clouded my judgement. I'll defend any argument I've ever made with a logical conclusion and fair consideration.
Saying a TR6060 shifts like butter is an insult to butter and a heck of a lot of GT500 owners regardless of model year. It is indeed an extremely robust transmission. However, it is not optimized in terms of smoothness. Ford tried changing clutch material/diameters, clutch pedal assembly mods, fixed flange changes, and most importantly numerous shifter geometry configurations. All ancillary system alterations that never addressed the elephant in the room, the fact that it is a gearbox designed and manufactured to be simple, robust, and at reasonable cost. By '13 the effort became one of slowing shifts down. Ford learned this via hordes of complaints. The aftermarket picked up on it as well. I documented Ford's GT500 TR6060 shifter geometry changes a few years ago in a thread here.
Ford abandoned the TR6060 after '14. Simply put, it doesn't shift with precision at high rpm. The internals carry quite a bit of mass. Great for durability behind torque happy production engines. Not so much beyond that. GM/Tremec have done a great job taking it further than Ford did and tried to address its shortcomings while also addressing NVH concerns. Then again, the alternatives are pretty much non-existent. Short of using a 6070 box they had little choice. Ford engineering made it clear that the TR6060 was never even considered for use in a GT350 iteration. The TR3160 was viable due to the 5.2's much lower torque rating and if the rumors prove to be true about the upcoming GT500/whatever, Ford will in a similar position to GM. Hence my comment about being interested in their choice of transmission in this yet to be monster from Ford.
In a nutshell, the TR6060 is a beefy box. That same heft however limits the speed at which it can operate without rejecting user inputs. The OEM's want less weight and are finally getting serious about shafts, bearings, synchros, etc, that reward a fast shift instead of denying it. They still get dumbed down with guibo joints and numbed up shifters but the internals are evolving for the better.
School me on how my "bias" has clouded my judgement. I'll defend any argument I've ever made with a logical conclusion and fair consideration.
Saying a TR6060 shifts like butter is an insult to butter and a heck of a lot of GT500 owners regardless of model year. It is indeed an extremely robust transmission. However, it is not optimized in terms of smoothness. Ford tried changing clutch material/diameters, clutch pedal assembly mods, fixed flange changes, and most importantly numerous shifter geometry configurations. All ancillary system alterations that never addressed the elephant in the room, the fact that it is a gearbox designed and manufactured to be simple, robust, and at reasonable cost. By '13 the effort became one of slowing shifts down. Ford learned this via hordes of complaints. The aftermarket picked up on it as well. I documented Ford's GT500 TR6060 shifter geometry changes a few years ago in a thread here.
Ford abandoned the TR6060 after '14. Simply put, it doesn't shift with precision at high rpm. The internals carry quite a bit of mass. Great for durability behind torque happy production engines. Not so much beyond that. GM/Tremec have done a great job taking it further than Ford did and tried to address its shortcomings while also addressing NVH concerns. Then again, the alternatives are pretty much non-existent. Short of using a 6070 box they had little choice. Ford engineering made it clear that the TR6060 was never even considered for use in a GT350 iteration. The TR3160 was viable due to the 5.2's much lower torque rating and if the rumors prove to be true about the upcoming GT500/whatever, Ford will in a similar position to GM. Hence my comment about being interested in their choice of transmission in this yet to be monster from Ford.
In a nutshell, the TR6060 is a beefy box. That same heft however limits the speed at which it can operate without rejecting user inputs. The OEM's want less weight and are finally getting serious about shafts, bearings, synchros, etc, that reward a fast shift instead of denying it. They still get dumbed down with guibo joints and numbed up shifters but the internals are evolving for the better.
Haha...you guys are funny. I know how to drive better than most. I invite you down with your stock 13 and 14 with those shit Goodyears on them an we'll go for a run. I live in the desmoines iowa area. When your close, give me a PM.
Edit: I know some fellas around here that COULD ablige but they would have to change tires back and take off their upgrades.
Nobody has a stock one, know why? It sucked that way.
Edit: I know some fellas around here that COULD ablige but they would have to change tires back and take off their upgrades.
Nobody has a stock one, know why? It sucked that way.
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Nice write up! But here is the thing:
How are you gonna sit there and tell me how my experience with the TR6060 has been? I have owned 2 different cars with them and they are a joy to drive (around town / spirited). Other than allowing them to get to operating temps, they were/are trouble free. This included plenty of shifting quickly at high rpms.
I also know several people with TR6060s who have had no issues.
No one here denies that you have a wealth of knowledge in regards to the internal workings of the transmission. I can even admit that you are way more technical than I.
But perhaps you could have tailored your shifting a little bit, in order to have a "complaint free" experience with the TR6060.
T45 not so butter smooth... T56 not so butter smooth...TR6060 "butter smooth" compared to those.
Now in regards to being biased, I have had arguments with you in the past (when you had a 500), where you tried to argue that the 500 was the better driver's / handling car vs. a ZL1, which is simply not true (unless you are biased by ownership).
In the end, we can agree to dissgree. But please note that there are plenty of TR6060 users out there with a trouble free experience that are very pleased with the transmission.
It is true. I think Van settled that the first month or two the 13 GT500 was out.
Lmao. No it is not.
I OWN a 14' GT500 and owned a 5g camaro 1LE (the little brother to the 5g ZL1). I have also driven several diferent ZL1s.
The Trinity, as much as I love the car (again, I currently OWN it), is lesser to a 5g ZL1 in terms of handling / drivers experience. Even lesser than a 5g 1LE.
Saying the 500 is a better handling / drivers car than a ZL1, is as disingenuous as saying it is better handling / drivers car than a 350. Its just plain not true, unless you are a brand guy and not a car guy.
lol I promise you a stock 13/14 will outrun your GT350R on the street with the tires warm.
I wish I still had mine, Des Moines in a short drive for me. Next springs/summer you need to bring it out to Heartland! I have a few buddies that run their R's out there and love it.
Playing devil's advocate here, assuming TOB and Nick both are in the dark like everyone else with this car, other than just rumors....what happens if you don't like what you see when it is finally announced? Pass on it? I know Nick's grapevine has less branches than most people on here.
Yes, I'd pass on it. However, I think I'll probably love it and have to have it.
Regarding the TR6060, isn't the main "issue" the fact that the shifter is remote mounted? Or, are there other short comings that cause the lock-out during high-rpm shifts? I've never experienced the lock-out, but then again I rarely take the RPMs very high.
In your opinion.
Again Van ran a guy on track. Brand new 13 500 vs a brand new ZL1. It was not pretty.
Shall I find the thread for you?
I dont care what "Van" did against an inferior driver with his slightly modified car. I know exactly what you are talking about. He only won based on the raw power / acceleration of the 500.
Power / acceleration =/= handling / drivers car.
There won't be many people who 'pass' on it.
I'm very excited about it. If I get enough allocations, I'm going to buy one for myself.
My biggest problem is I have seen zero confirmation that the car even exists.
I came into the thread late, and admittedly haven't read the whole thing. I don't know if this was already covered... but I have not seen any concrete evidence that the car is even coming anytime soon, if at all. Is it?
Over the summer, I talked to a person "in the know" that told me the GT500 branding isn't locked in and the mules that have been being seen for the last year or so have been related to the refresh and model options for other cars (like the Bullet and GTPP) more than the next edition of the Shelby line-up. I just gave up on the idea of it even happening.
I came into the thread late, and admittedly haven't read the whole thing. I don't know if this was already covered... but I have not seen any concrete evidence that the car is even coming anytime soon, if at all. Is it?
Over the summer, I talked to a person "in the know" that told me the GT500 branding isn't locked in and the mules that have been being seen for the last year or so have been related to the refresh and model options for other cars (like the Bullet and GTPP) more than the next edition of the Shelby line-up. I just gave up on the idea of it even happening.
I promise there is concrete evidence, and I promise it's coming soon.
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