600 rwhp NA on e85 out of the question?

[Voltwings]

If the car is ONLY going to be a racecar. I forget who all was discussing in the thread i was following, but basically the design of that motor makes it not street friendly: as in it will not last 100k miles or so. I cant quote it exactly, but something about the piston ring design.

Lets do some quick ricer math However:

For the sake of argument and even round numbers, OP makes 500 whp at 8000 rpms, and to do so needs about 328 Ft/lbs.

5.0 to 5.8 is a 16% increase in displacement roughly, which means a proportional 16% increase in torque. Assuming this motor is capable of 8000 rpms, and assuming the heads / cams / whatever can flow the appropriate CFM, that now gives us 380 ft/lbs of torque or right about 580 whp at 8000 rpms.

Keep in mind that is all "in theory," the car could very well make more... but it could also very well make less. I doubt a 5.8L can spin 8000 rpms, but who knows.


*HP calculation is hp = (tq x rpm) / 5252 if anyone would like to check my math.

 

[pufferfish]

I spin 8k all day on a stock boss long block. The gt computer hard decks at 8200. Not sure about the boss, but it may be higher. For 9k or more, you would be working with an aftermarket ECU like FAST.

From a reliability standpoint, 8k+ is going to need phaser lockouts and better than boss springs. That gets the rpms needed to make a small displacement motor capable of 600rwhp.

Now, to get the extra power with these small engines, you are limited on torque. Make 400rwhp. Make 400ftlbs. Make 500rwhp. Still making 400ftlbs. It's going to be true for 600 as well. You can gain some tq with compression, but other than that cubes are the only tq adder. So, maitaining torque through the rpm range and extending the range is the only way.

You would need to make 400ftlbs at 8000rpm to make 600hp. How do you take a motor that makes a max of just over 400rwtq no matter what NA goodies you throw at it and have it make 400@8k? Tough job. Now extending it to 9000rpm, you only need 350ftlbs to get to 600hp. More doable. Or 320ftlbs at 10000rpm for 600hp.

Rpm is what it will take along with TONS of flow. Need to bring peak torque to around 7-8k. Street friendly, this motor is not!

 

[DSG2003SVT]

This is starting to remind me of rotary engine discussions.

 

[twistedneck]

hey pufferfish can you explain how the limiters help the coyote attain higher rpm levels? I have heard that before and can't figure it out.

On 600hp - shooting for a number is only dyno specific. So OP wants 600 rwhp on his dyno, that may not mean the same thing on another dyno like a superflow or a mustang, or the super ultimate AVL dyno.

There would be a lot of spintron work needed to make our engine work at 9000+ rpm, not to mention the huge piston speeds due to our 92.6mm stroke.

What about a deeper oil pan? That could free up HP in the higher rpm's. I think Livernois found some pretty big power increases just by using the deeper cj pan.

 

[pufferfish]

The springs needed to run the rpm, will overwhelm the phasers and then not keep proper timing. I got this information from both mmr and livernois. In fact, livernois said that any spring bigger than the boss springs needs at least phaser limiters to prevent PTV interference at high rpm levels. Rev auto backed that up when they disassembled an engine and found they had, at one point touched (without destroying anything, luckily). As a result, when I get my heads back from livernois with their springs on, limiters will be installed.

I know nothing about the oil pan thing. What is the theory? Windage? I have the moroso 10qt. Was that a power adder? I don't see how any bigger pan fits. It's super tight with the factory k member.

 

[Voltwings]

My only guess could be windage, same reason there were no piston oil squirters on the boss. The higher RPMS didn't seem to like them.

 

[redline5.0]

The springs needed to run the rpm, will overwhelm the phasers and then not keep proper timing. I got this information from both mmr and livernois. In fact, livernois said that any spring bigger than the boss springs needs at least phaser limiters to prevent PTV interference at high rpm levels. Rev auto backed that up when they disassembled an engine and found they had, at one point touched (without destroying anything, luckily). As a result, when I get my heads back from livernois with their springs on, limiters will be installed.

I know nothing about the oil pan thing. What is the theory? Windage? I have the moroso 10qt. Was that a power adder? I don't see how any bigger pan fits. It's super tight with the factory k member.

I'm running the mmr race springs and they were 105lbs closed and I have had zero issues with timing. Shaun was worried at first till we did a bunch of logs to verify targeted timing was being meet. I think he said 120 is where you start having issues but I don't remember.

 

[corysmach1]

When I do ported heads and custom big cams I hope for 550-560rwhp. Yes I am already on E85 with a Ported CJ setup making 466/400.

 

[pufferfish]

what i hear is that there isn't much power in e85 with na motors unless you are trying to combat knock from upping the compression ratio. the e85 does offer consistant hp though. bradley from rev auto was telling me you can run back to back to back on a dyno with e85 and not lose power. i am considering it as a road race fuel. having full power on every lap would be awesome!

redline, i have no doubt you are right, that you can have full phaser adjustment and bigger springs, but for how long? rev auto certainly didn't think their engine needed them. i can't say i would pull the motor apart just to add limiters, but since it is already apart, its a no brainer for me to add them.

that said, for the discussion at hand, i don't think anyone trying to achieve 600rwhp na would be able to do it with the phasers (even with limiters). too much rpm, too aggressive cams and springs.

 

[DSG2003SVT]

MMR's phaser delete kit also removes a significant amount of weight from the cams. That may make it easier to spin to the higher RPMs needed to really make power with these motors. I also don't think that the phasers are going to hold together making that much power at that high of engine speeds.

If you're really wanting those numbers, you're probably going to have to make the trade for low end power. With 3.90s or 3.73s, I honestly don't think that the car would be a dog around town anyway. The next issue you'd have to consider is a transmission that's strong enough and that will still shift at 8500+.

 

[pufferfish]

Funny thing is all non-stock cams outweigh stock cams by a large margin! The phaser deletes only partially compensate for this weight penalty, so you still end up heavier to make high rpm power.

I would bet the mt82 is good for 9k shifting, since it uses the triple cone synchros already. And with NA, as I said, torque is never going to be much more than 400ftlbs.

 

[DSG2003SVT]

I guess with the right clutch, the mt82 probably would work.

Are custom cams from the big name engine builders necessarily heavier? Could you get them to build lighter cams for extra cash?

 

[Mike Rousch]

the e85 does offer consistant hp though. bradley from rev auto was telling me you can run back to back to back on a dyno with e85 and not lose power. i am considering it as a road race fuel. having full power on every lap would be awesome!

Trust me you will love it on the track, Every time i mention this to people out there they look at me like I am crazy. I guess its not caught up to the road race crowd yet.

 

[pufferfish]

All aftermarket cams are solid cores. The factory cams are tubular with pressed on lobes. I would like to know if comp cams could gun drill the cores. It might reduce high rpm stability though.

 

[DSG2003SVT]

I wish we had access to E85 here.

 

[toomnymods]

I wish we had access to E85 here.

lol thiers e85 all over dfw..

 

[DSG2003SVT]

Closest one to where I live is 45 minutes away unless the locators aren't accurate.

 

[pufferfish]

Trust me you will love it on the track, Every time i mention this to people out there they look at me like I am crazy. I guess its not caught up to the road race crowd yet.

thats what i hear. rev auto has been converting some of the NASA AI boys. my only issues are 1) availability - 1 place within a 30 mile radius 2) need to bring lots of it to the track - with 30% more consumption than gasoline, it will take a 50 gallon drum to fuel a weekend. 3) my car is still street driven, so 1 station nowhere near my house is a problem. i would have to switch to gas on the street. 4) the Harbor Freight trailer i use to pull my gear behind my car to the track would be overtaxed by a 50 gallon drum...around 400 extra pounds. those wheelbarrow tires will be working hard!

but, if i could work out the logistics, e85 would be a great track fuel!

 

[darreng505]

thats what i hear. rev auto has been converting some of the NASA AI boys. my only issues are 1) availability - 1 place within a 30 mile radius 2) need to bring lots of it to the track - with 30% more consumption than gasoline, it will take a 50 gallon drum to fuel a weekend. 3) my car is still street driven, so 1 station nowhere near my house is a problem. i would have to switch to gas on the street. 4) the Harbor Freight trailer i use to pull my gear behind my car to the track would be overtaxed by a 50 gallon drum...around 400 extra pounds. those wheelbarrow tires will be working hard!

but, if i could work out the logistics, e85 would be a great track fuel!

That's why I got this!

 

[Voltwings]

Availability really is the only issue, most tracks around us don't have it anywhere near so we'd have to crate ours in as well.

What's real popular with the direct injection crowd (because no larger injectors) is we would just use E85 blends. Granted, E85 has an effective octane of around 160 in DI applications, so I could tune (mazdaspeed3's) to about 25% e85 per tank and still get 100% knock resistance.

Granted, you had to be real careful not to mess your blend up, and be actively monitoring your fuel trims to make sure everything is fine, but I wonder how effective a "blend" would be on a PI car. Assuming you're not boosted, it really shouldn't take much to stabilize the power right?

This gas tank is 16 gallons, so 4 gallons of E85 per tank gives you right around E30 (30% ethanol per tank), or effectively 96 octane give or take (calculators used: http://www.intercepteft.com/calc.html ). Basically, you may not be able to tune more aggressively, but should at least be able to maintain your current level of power... just gotta find a tuner willing to tune a blend.

This may need to be a separate thread just for the sake of not thread jacking.