11.31 Thru the Stock Air Filter:

[snakerider]

Congrats on the new car Shaun! It's nice to see you have started a thread with all this great tech info on the new 2012 5.0's,. Gotta give up to you Shaun. " You are a bad ass tuner":rockon:.

P.S. Can't wait to get my car running and have you tune it buddy :burnout:

Ravi

 

[Shaun@AED]

Do you guys think the stock airbox is the way to go all the time or just over this type of intake?

What are your opinions on stock vs. Airaid/Steeda/JLT?

Results are inconclusive.
We've seen gains on the dyno from the other intakes, but never tested them at the track back to back.

IMO the stock cold air duct and box will keep high pressure in the intake tract better than an open box design, and the JLT / C&L doesn't use the stock air duct, which is also not well planned IMO.

The Steeda is an aluminum housing which will net higher inlet temps due to heat soak, but they will cool right down to ambient very quickly at WOT.

It seems the Airaid has all but one feature I'd look for and that is a closed filter box. On the dyno I saw a gain of 10 from the AirAid with insert installed. Removing the insert saw no additional gains.

The problem I'm running into with the stock Cold air is poor Maff resolution due to the high power/small housing. I have 2 data cells left for Maff adjustment at the top of the track. (very little room left for more air/power)

Now, to make things even more complicated there is far more to tuning the cold air than just adding the SCT value file! It's fine on the dyno, but real world conditions will require tune modifications.
Hotter intake air temps require IAT spark adjustment.
Higher load (calculated via Maff, Temp, displacement, and a few other variables) requires spark table adjustments. To throw another wrench in it I saw different timing in each gear after the CAI swap. Reviewing my logs from last week with the stock intake and it didn't have this problem.
For a quick fix (band aid) I set all the timing tables to the same as OP, which resulted in additional timing in lower gears, but no MPH gain.

IMO we do not yet have enough knowledge and acess via SCT alone to properly address this last issue. The ECU is targeting different TQ/spark tables, the question is WHY? What 'clip' did I hit by installing this CAI? Or was it due to the Maff spikes (TQ calc spikes). Further testing wih other cold air kits at the track is required.

Until these questions are answered, I'm recommending sticking with the factory Cold Air and re-scaling the top of the Maff curve to correct the lack of resolution with the stock table at high RPM/power.
Then here is temp compensation for Maff signal. I've already resolved this issue with the stock Maff and WMS, but need to test further with all the other units. The stock table is inadequate at compensating for Air temp changes at WOT. This is why some cars actually go slower as the air cools down. It depends on how far off the Maff curve is at WOT and high load/RPM.

I will be focusing elsewhere in order to sneak into the 10's.

 

[SicShelby09]

Results are inconclusive.
We've seen gains on the dyno from the other intakes, but never tested them at the track back to back.

IMO the stock cold air duct and box will keep high pressure in the intake tract better than an open box design, and the JLT / C&L doesn't use the stock air duct, which is also not well planned IMO.

The Steeda is an aluminum housing which will net higher inlet temps due to heat soak, but they will cool right down to ambient very quickly at WOT.

It seems the Airaid has all but one feature I'd look for and that is a closed filter box. On the dyno I saw a gain of 10 from the AirAid with insert installed. Removing the insert saw no additional gains.

The problem I'm running into with the stock Cold air is poor Maff resolution due to the high power/small housing. I have 2 data cells left for Maff adjustment at the top of the track. (very little room left for more air/power)

Now, to make things even more complicated there is far more to tuning the cold air than just adding the SCT value file! It's fine on the dyno, but real world conditions will require tune modifications.
Hotter intake air temps require IAT spark adjustment.
Higher load (calculated via Maff, Temp, displacement, and a few other variables) requires spark table adjustments. To throw another wrench in it I saw different timing in each gear after the CAI swap. Reviewing my logs from last week with the stock intake and it didn't have this problem.
For a quick fix (band aid) I set all the timing tables to the same as OP, which resulted in additional timing in lower gears, but no MPH gain.

IMO we do not yet have enough knowledge and acess via SCT alone to properly address this last issue. The ECU is targeting different TQ/spark tables, the question is WHY? What 'clip' did I hit by installing this CAI? Or was it due to the Maff spikes (TQ calc spikes). Further testing wih other cold air kits at the track is required.

Until these questions are answered, I'm recommending sticking with the factory Cold Air and re-scaling the top of the Maff curve to correct the lack of resolution with the stock table at high RPM/power.
Then here is temp compensation for Maff signal. I've already resolved this issue with the stock Maff and WMS, but need to test further with all the other units. The stock table is inadequate at compensating for Air temp changes at WOT. This is why some cars actually go slower as the air cools down. It depends on how far off the Maff curve is at WOT and high load/RPM.

I will be focusing elsewhere in order to sneak into the 10's.

You are the man shaun, plus you are going to save me some money sticking with the stock airbox and just going with your tune. Thanks for putting all this work into the 5.0, and I cant wait to see what happens when you add a K&N airfilter to the stock airbox. I think Im going to order one now.

 

[Z25OH]

Results are inconclusive.
We've seen gains on the dyno from the other intakes, but never tested them at the track back to back.

IMO the stock cold air duct and box will keep high pressure in the intake tract better than an open box design, and the JLT / C&L doesn't use the stock air duct, which is also not well planned IMO.

The Steeda is an aluminum housing which will net higher inlet temps due to heat soak, but they will cool right down to ambient very quickly at WOT.

It seems the Airaid has all but one feature I'd look for and that is a closed filter box. On the dyno I saw a gain of 10 from the AirAid with insert installed. Removing the insert saw no additional gains.

The problem I'm running into with the stock Cold air is poor Maff resolution due to the high power/small housing. I have 2 data cells left for Maff adjustment at the top of the track. (very little room left for more air/power)

Now, to make things even more complicated there is far more to tuning the cold air than just adding the SCT value file! It's fine on the dyno, but real world conditions will require tune modifications.
Hotter intake air temps require IAT spark adjustment.
Higher load (calculated via Maff, Temp, displacement, and a few other variables) requires spark table adjustments. To throw another wrench in it I saw different timing in each gear after the CAI swap. Reviewing my logs from last week with the stock intake and it didn't have this problem.
For a quick fix (band aid) I set all the timing tables to the same as OP, which resulted in additional timing in lower gears, but no MPH gain.

IMO we do not yet have enough knowledge and acess via SCT alone to properly address this last issue. The ECU is targeting different TQ/spark tables, the question is WHY? What 'clip' did I hit by installing this CAI? Or was it due to the Maff spikes (TQ calc spikes). Further testing wih other cold air kits at the track is required.

Until these questions are answered, I'm recommending sticking with the factory Cold Air and re-scaling the top of the Maff curve to correct the lack of resolution with the stock table at high RPM/power.
Then here is temp compensation for Maff signal. I've already resolved this issue with the stock Maff and WMS, but need to test further with all the other units. The stock table is inadequate at compensating for Air temp changes at WOT. This is why some cars actually go slower as the air cools down. It depends on how far off the Maff curve is at WOT and high load/RPM.

I will be focusing elsewhere in order to sneak into the 10's.

Wow...i have honestly never heard of someone taking so much time and pride into tunning.....real world testing > dyno testing too..... I'm very intrested in a tune from you shaun...not an e85 tune though....do you do regular tunes? And i must ask...are the knock sensor altered in your tunes?? thnx

 

[SicShelby09]

I just ordered my new K&N airfilter from amazon with free shipping for $39.27. Then I will be calling you shaun for a tune.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/33-2431-High-Performance-Replacement-Filter/dp/B002BASW5W/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top"]Amazon.com: K&N 33-2431 High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive[/ame]

 

[Z25OH]

I just ordered my new K&N airfilter from amazon with free shipping for $39.27. Then I will be calling you shaun for a tune.

Amazon.com: K&N 33-2431 High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive

NICE!

I personally went with AFE's DRYFLOW drop in filter....love it

 

[sloppymax]

NICE!

I personally went with AFE's DRYFLOW drop in filter....love it

Went with that one too a couple of months back. Perfect fit, simple to clean and no worries of oil filming up the maf.

 

[SicShelby09]

Went with that one too a couple of months back. Perfect fit, simple to clean and no worries of oil filming up the maf.

Myth.

Can Oil Come Off Our Filters? High Airflow Testing & Engine Air Filter Dynamics

 

[ViciousJay]

I just ordered my new K&N airfilter from amazon with free shipping for $39.27. Then I will be calling you shaun for a tune.

Amazon.com: K&N 33-2431 High Performance Replacement Air Filter: Automotive

personally thats a waste of money, i would just keep the stock filter in on DD basis, and if dragging pull the bitch out and run filter-less

 

[SicShelby09]

personally thats a waste of money, i would just keep the stock filter in on DD basis, and if dragging pull the bitch out and run filter-less

At this point, the JLT seems like a much bigger waste of money. And no matter where I was or what I was doing, I would never run filterless.

 

[sloppymax]

Myth.

Can Oil Come Off Our Filters? High Airflow Testing & Engine Air Filter Dynamics

My experience says fact. Ran a K&N in my stock box in my previous VQ35. After 5k miles, I used maf cleaner and funny enough there was red/pink oil on the sensor wire and housing. This was a new filter and therefore oiled at their factory. Ran an oem paper filter after I cleaned it and no film or buildup after 5k miles.

I like the AFE because it has an increased surface area and can be 100% cleaned by soap/water. The K&N oil has also shown up in plenty of oil analysis' that I have seen with increased silicon that mysteriously disappeared when switching back to a paper filter. Sorry for the tangent.

 

[ViciousJay]

At this point, the JLT seems like a much bigger waste of money. And no matter where I was or what I was doing, I would never run filterless.

I see Shaun hasnt said he's run the JLT yet, ill wait till he does and posts his numbers... i know we can bench mark here but the JLT, H pipe and Tune netted me 423/377, now mind you the h pipe is worth 8-10 and the tune maybe 20 at best

 

[davidhuff]

Shaun are you tuning with 91 octane?

 

[kdanner]

.

 

[Shaun@AED]

I have several customers with the JLT. It performs well on the dyno (as do other cold air kits), but I have not logged it at the track.

That's actually becoming very apparent to me. Dyno tuning is only part of getting a quality tune on these cars. Track testing shows different results. This is due to multiple factors in the tune that do not present themselves in a single gear dyno pull.

The main problem with the WMS IMO is the Maff variations. This *could* be the bulk of the problems seen in the log, or it could be that all Cold Air kits will do the same, or similar. At this time I just don't have the answer.
We have multiple customers with different Cold-Air kits. As they decide to race at the local drag strip, I will be there to log/support them via Tuning. Findings will be posted on this site.

As for mail order tuning... Yes, I can do it, but for maximum results both on the dyno and at the track it's my opinion that you simply can't beat a proper custom dyno tune.
TiVCT changes to maximize dyno results WILL translate to power at the strip. Every car is different and responds differently to TiVCT changes (from my experience). I can get the tables 'close' via Email, but changes on the dyno *may* result in increased power and a broader powerband.
Real world logging will then be required to ensure the Maff is spot-on. This is not a problem over email, just time consuming since I can't make changes at the track on your car after each run.
Maff Temp compensation from my limited testing (Stock CAI and WMS CAI) is now spot-on and *should* transfer over to other CAI's....the Aluminum housing units will vary a bit more due to false temp readings, but that can be accounted for in the tables....I just don't like doing it that way. I'd prefer plastic Maff housings for accuracy.

Point being I can not guarantee max power/MPH via email tunes (nobody can IMO), however I can work with your local custom tuner, send them a quality 'Base' file, and direct them on further modifications as they see fit.

My Base tunes have the following:
Conservative 91 octane Ignition timing.
TiVCT modifications based on local customers 5.0's (to be used as a Base for further modification by your tuner)
TQ limits removed between shifts (allowing aggressive launches and powershifting)
Maff Temp compensation re-scaled
Stock knock sensor rates/settings, but modified in other ways (higher RPM and adaptive limits)
And a host of other misc things.

I'm here to not only show you guys what we can do with these 5.0's, but help out the Custom SCT tuners as well. IMO you simply can't beat a Quality Custom Dyno tune.
The more tuners we get data from, the faster we'll progress with tuning these cars. (I can't do it all, there's too many different parts to buy and too many hours of testing involved.)

 

[SicShelby09]

I have several customers with the JLT. It performs well on the dyno (as do other cold air kits), but I have not logged it at the track.

That's actually becoming very apparent to me. Dyno tuning is only part of getting a quality tune on these cars. Track testing shows different results. This is due to multiple factors in the tune that do not present themselves in a single gear dyno pull.

The main problem with the WMS IMO is the Maff variations. This *could* be the bulk of the problems seen in the log, or it could be that all Cold Air kits will do the same, or similar. At this time I just don't have the answer.
We have multiple customers with different Cold-Air kits. As they decide to race at the local drag strip, I will be there to log/support them via Tuning. Findings will be posted on this site.

As for mail order tuning... Yes, I can do it, but for maximum results both on the dyno and at the track it's my opinion that you simply can't beat a proper custom dyno tune.
TiVCT changes to maximize dyno results WILL translate to power at the strip. Every car is different and responds differently to TiVCT changes (from my experience). I can get the tables 'close' via Email, but changes on the dyno *may* result in increased power and a broader powerband.
Real world logging will then be required to ensure the Maff is spot-on. This is not a problem over email, just time consuming since I can't make changes at the track on your car after each run.
Maff Temp compensation from my limited testing (Stock CAI and WMS CAI) is now spot-on and *should* transfer over to other CAI's....the Aluminum housing units will vary a bit more due to false temp readings, but that can be accounted for in the tables....I just don't like doing it that way. I'd prefer plastic Maff housings for accuracy.

Point being I can not guarantee max power/MPH via email tunes (nobody can IMO), however I can work with your local custom tuner, send them a quality 'Base' file, and direct them on further modifications as they see fit.

My Base tunes have the following:
Conservative 91 octane Ignition timing.
TiVCT modifications based on local customers 5.0's (to be used as a Base for further modification by your tuner)
TQ limits removed between shifts (allowing aggressive launches and powershifting)
Maff Temp compensation re-scaled
Stock knock sensor rates/settings, but modified in other ways (higher RPM and adaptive limits)
And a host of other misc things.

I'm here to not only show you guys what we can do with these 5.0's, but help out the Custom SCT tuners as well. IMO you simply can't beat a Quality Custom Dyno tune.
The more tuners we get data from, the faster we'll progress with tuning these cars. (I can't do it all, there's too many different parts to buy and too many hours of testing involved.)

Your post here is exactly why Im going to buy a tune from you.

 

[me32]

As always Shaun great info. With you talking the time to understand these cars you will help out tons of 5.0 owners.

 

[Z25OH]

Myth.

Can Oil Come Off Our Filters? High Airflow Testing & Engine Air Filter Dynamics

FACT for me.... i had oil on my maf in my vq37 and vq35....i'll never do k&n again...

 

[ViciousJay]

Go try that and come back and tell me how well it worked out for you. The airflow is going to be so screwed up through your MAF that I would have doubts about the car even idling.

did it on a stock run, car ran fine :shrug:

 

[kdanner]

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