Anyone else frustrated with Ford over the next GT500?

[biminiLX]

I'd like to see real numbers proving more people drag race Mustangs than road race them. I'd bet it's a pretty even split. Historically, the Mustang was a road racer before it was a drag racer. Thinking about the pro and semi-pro circuits, I see more Mustangs in road racing competitions than drag racing. Also, unless a hype machine ticket includes an SRT vehicle, how can you say Dodge is the hottest player right now when they have the fewest sales? Speaking of sales, haven't you noticed that the vast majority of people turning Mustangs into drag cars buy them as used cars? Why would Ford cater to a group that's not even buying from them? Used sales don't help FMC's bottom line, new car sales do. Ford is focusing on those of us who talk with our wallets, and the majority of us want a great performing/handling Mustang, not just a straight line car.

I'd like to see the numbers too, but I'm not wasting my time.
I'm a drag racer so my opinion is biased, but I'd put good money on more people drag racing Mustangs than road racing.
I agree with you on the used part, my wife used to ask me why Mustangs and I'd tell her it's the cheapest way to go fast. But now I have the means to buy whatever car I want and I'd prefer a Shelby GT500 with a drag pack option. I'd also put money on that option selling better than a track pack.
Part of that buying used reason is that Ford has been selling track focused Mustangs, with nothing Drag focused. Plus they're getting heavier. Few guys are like me that'll tear apart a new car to make it what I want. My car and the Demon both make excellent street cars, it's just they can also can perform better on the strip vs road course.
On the SRT thing, I've read an article about Challengers outselling Mustang and Camaro earlier this year. And you'd have to be blind to miss the SRT advertising.
Now I live in a town where they build Jeeps, and many have access to employee discounts, but most young guys with money are driving SRT over mustang and Camaro.
Just my observations.
-J

 

[Tob]

I like that Ford has been offering a hard core drag choice in the Cobra Jet over the past few years. No street compromise there for those that are serious about drag racing. The Demon is neat in that it goes against the enviro-sensitivity we've come to expect in this country and it definitely fills a void or niche. My hope would be that Ford has little interest in a one trick pony and instead offers something a bit more well rounded, ala the ZL1 1LE (a car that is actually far from it when you consider ride quality on the street).

As long as Ford has the major building blocks in place, great power with a robust drivetrain, I don't see why you couldn't make the car work for you and the venue you favor. The aftermarket will be there if you are a fan of the quarter mile just as it always has.

 

[biminiLX]

I like that Ford has been offering a hard core drag choice in the Cobra Jet over the past few years. No street compromise there for those that are serious about drag racing. The Demon is neat in that it goes against the enviro-sensitivity we've come to expect in this country and it definitely fills a void or niche. My hope would be that Ford has little interest in a one trick pony and instead offers something a bit more well rounded, ala the ZL1 1LE (a car that is actually far from it when you consider ride quality on the street).

As long as Ford has the major building blocks in place, great power with a robust drivetrain, I don't see why you couldn't make the car work for you and the venue you favor. The aftermarket will be there if you are a fan of the quarter mile just as it always has.

You're 100% right and I agree, just frustrating to always go aftermarket when OEM can do drag.
Example is the dual mode SVT Bilsteins in my '14. Instead of street and 'rock hard for track', why not street and strip settings.
Again I'd think you'd be surprised on the take rate of a drag pack.
Guys that buy these rarely go to the track anyway, but most want a good STREET car that is comfortable and rips in a straight line. It's why I drive a Hellcat and every single person that drives it wants one.
Again, why the GT350 should stay as the handling option and the GT500 as the street/strip option.
-J

 

[Tob]

As far as the Bilsteins, hey, I tried. I got pretty far with Bilstein and thought they were on-board and gearing up to do pretty much what you've been hoping for. They had all the hardware in place to offer some really neat suspension hardware solutions. They bailed. My sense is that Delphi's MR suspension took quite a bit out of their sails.

I can understand you relating the GT350 as more "roadcourse" and the GT500 as boulevard bruiser with drag roots. From a historical perspective you are spot on. That said, if you aren't going down the Demon road, why dump the front suspension module from the GT350 (stiff aluminum knuckle, HD hub, more than capable Brembo caliper and SHW rotor)? Why go backwards and go back to an iron spindle with smaller, less capable brakes? Why limit superb braking and handling capability? In essence, why limit vehicle dynamic capability to cater to such a limited performance spectrum? It was easy in the 60's and 70's because technology was much more limited than it is today.

As a kid I never dreamed that the factory would ever offer line-lock or any "mode" for that matter that was designed to allow the suspension to react in a way that enhances drag-style launches. No way. Yet it is almost expected in certain domestic performance cars today. But to tailor the entire car for the drag strip? Buy a CJ or gut and gusset. With a serious powerplant and quick shifting transmission you're already most of the way there.

 

[biminiLX]

As far as the Bilsteins, hey, I tried. I got pretty far with Bilstein and thought they were on-board and gearing up to do pretty much what you've been hoping for. They had all the hardware in place to offer some really neat suspension hardware solutions. They bailed. My sense is that Delphi's MR suspension took quite a bit out of their sails.

I can understand you relating the GT350 as more "roadcourse" and the GT500 as boulevard bruiser with drag roots. From a historical perspective you are spot on. That said, if you aren't going down the Demon road, why dump the front suspension module from the GT350 (stiff aluminum knuckle, HD hub, more than capable Brembo caliper and SHW rotor)? Why go backwards and go back to an iron spindle with smaller, less capable brakes? Why limit superb braking and handling capability? In essence, why limit vehicle dynamic capability to cater to such a limited performance spectrum? It was easy in the 60's and 70's because technology was much more limited that it is today.

As a kid I never dreamed that the factory would ever offer line-lock or any "mode" for that matter that was designed to allow the suspension to react in a way that enhances drag-style launches. No way. Yet it is almost expected in certain domestic performance cars today. But to tailor the entire car for the drag strip? Buy a CJ or gut and gusset. With a serious powerplant and quick shifting transmission you're already most of the way there.

Trust me, I was very on board with your Bilsteins plan. I haven't given up, as I have a full spare set getting ready to send to Bilsteins for revalving. I spoke with both Bilstein and Viking and Kelly at BMR all at PRI, and the best choice is revalving the dual mode Bilsteins for street strip.
And I have both a '66 GT350H and '67 GT500 (dads) in the garage, so I understand the lineage, so it's why I question abandoning the drag guys that built a huge part of Ford Performance.
I also don't want you to think I'm looking for a Demon or one trick pony, but the ultimate street/strip Mustang.
No reason a drag-pack equipped GT500 would be less capable on the street, just having options or factory adjustments to make it better on the strip than road course.
I'm a buyer on the next GT500, I just think Fordshould listen to the guys who actually spend the cash.
-J

 

[conceptmachine]

I would like it if Ford would offer a Track pack AND a drag pack GT500. I realize this 5.2 won't make silly torque but it sure would show that they want to please all with those options. Quite frankly they would sell more cars if they did it this way. What drag guy wouldn't want a mustang that took on the demon? What track guy wouldn't want a mustang that took on the zl1-1LE?
Now, the Zl1-l1E fighter is more my style. I'd like the aero, but I sure would like the qualities a drag car would have for stop light racing. Sure would be satisfying if Ford thought of each of these groups. I realize there is the Cobra Jet, but do what it takes to give it a VIN

 

[ON D BIT]

With cross plane crank and blower it should make plenty of torque...more than hp even.

 

[conceptmachine]

If it gets to 800HP it MAY just break 700 Torque.
Look at all the boosted 350s, they make way less torque than HP and the cross plane isn’t gonna help much.
It won’t need all that torque if it isn’t a drag car anyway, in fact it will probably have lots of torque limiting at 650.
That DCT will need beefed up as well, if it’s going over 650.

 

[Dusten]

If it gets to 800HP it MAY just break 700 Torque.
Look at all the boosted 350s, they make way less torque than HP and the cross plane isn’t gonna help much.
It won’t need all that torque if it isn’t a drag car anyway, in fact it will probably have lots of torque limiting at 650.
That DCT will need beefed up as well, if it’s going over 650.

Cams designed for a blown motor well help the torque curve

 

[gimmie11s]

If it gets to 800HP it MAY just break 700 Torque.
Look at all the boosted 350s, they make way less torque than HP and the cross plane isn’t gonna help much.
It won’t need all that torque if it isn’t a drag car anyway, in fact it will probably have lots of torque limiting at 650.
That DCT will need beefed up as well, if it’s going over 650.

A cross plan 5.2 with the next gen TVS will make damn near just as much tq as HP all the while revving to 7200+ rpm.

The motor in this car is going to be ****ing epic.

All the talk earlier of how great a trinity or condor would be in the S550 chassis is laughable at best.

The Coyote is leagues better than both by a country mile. Rod-ratio is better (higher RPM), heads are better, etc etc etc (list is long). Drop a factory 2.65 TVS on top and is going to be nuts.

 

[conceptmachine]

help, but it’s no where going to be close to the HP output.
Hey, I want it to be, but this thing is going to be a track car and it will go against reasonable cause to give it huge torque, even if they could.

Edit: Any links to anyone that has dropped a 2650 on an aluminator XS? It’s not going to show what Ford is going to give us, but I would like to see what’s possible with it. Ive seen 1000hp 850T before.
I have a feeling after we get this thing passed by the California emissions it may have 50hp and 15 torque

 

[gimmie11s]

^^ 2650 isn't available yet in aftermarket form....

End of q1 '18 from what I've seen from VMP.

 

[Tob]

And I have both a '66 GT350H and '67 GT500 (dads) in the garage, so I understand the lineage, so it's why I question abandoning the drag guys that built a huge part of Ford Performance.
I also don't want you to think I'm looking for a Demon or one trick pony, but the ultimate street/strip Mustang.
No reason a drag-pack equipped GT500 would be less capable on the street, just having options or factory adjustments to make it better on the strip than road course.
I'm a buyer on the next GT500, I just think Fordshould listen to the guys who actually spend the cash.
-J

I can see that you understand the lineage well. I know this isn't easy but Ford has to move forward with a vision that puts them in a position to morph the car from what it is now to something quite a bit different without being abrupt. The timetable of which is a bit unpredictable but definitely looming. That means letting the past go but without abandoning it completely. Not the easiest task.

This car is likely to be heavier than a non-R GT350, possibly nearing 4,000lb. We can all agree that safety items can't be dialed back and increase weight. Americans have become obese, lazy, and with limited patience. They want everything and they want it now hence why OEM's are reluctant to offer "stripper" versions of most any product line. Most expect A/C on track cars in warmer climates, something that would have been laughed upon in the past. They want navigation, cameras, comfortable seating, etc, point being that they favor a porker over a lean mean fighting machine. So you end up with a fairly loaded, heavy car. Insane power numbers and traction work well to overcome the above - to a point. So you are left with tires and suspension. Which takes me back to my point about being pretty darn close with a few bolt-ons, some suspension tuning and adjustments to get some great numbers.

Ford's new CEO was given a mandate and one of the things that has been talked about is limiting the number of available options or groups. They are looking to simplify which means less choice in my book. Hopefully they learned from the Tech Pack debacle of the '15/'16 GT350 years and make sure even the leanest of option choices always has mission critical cooling systems in place.

The motor in this car is going to be ****ing epic.

Anything less will be a bitter pill to swallow. Ford has the opportunity to showcase some truly innovative technologies. Hopefully they can show everyone that it can be done relatively large-scale and at reasonable cost.

I have a feeling after we get this thing passed by the California emissions it may have 50hp and 15 torque

If you study CARB requirements by year you'll see that everything has tightened up - fast. And the number of states that have adopted CA's regulations continues to grow.

Not only do they have to meet and endless list of standards but they must do so for quite a few miles. The relevant sections are all in here. I guarantee nobody can make it through the entire pdf.
https://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/levpr...2017+_ghg_my_lev iii_clean complete_10-15.pdf

 

[ON D BIT]

If it gets to 800HP it MAY just break 700 Torque.
Look at all the boosted 350s, they make way less torque than HP and the cross plane isn’t gonna help much.
It won’t need all that torque if it isn’t a drag car anyway, in fact it will probably have lots of torque limiting at 650.
That DCT will need beefed up as well, if it’s going over 650.

Totally different engine design with high rev flat plane crank. The gt500 will get torque like boosted 5.0.

 

[conceptmachine]

Any shows or events between NAIAS and NYIAS, when this thing could be revealed, or are we needing to wait until NYIAS?

 

[BlksvtCobra01]

Any shows or events between NAIAS and NYIAS, when this thing could be revealed, or are we needing to wait until NYIAS?

If you look a few pages back a member in here that is credible imho. Said to avoid NAIAS in Detroit. So doubting it will be revealed there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[conceptmachine]

If you look a few pages back a member in here that is credible imho. Said to avoid NAIAS in Detroit. So doubting it will be revealed there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, that’s why I mentioned between NAIAS and NYIAS, not at NAIAS.

 

[dlaude]

Any shows or events between NAIAS and NYIAS, when this thing could be revealed, or are we needing to wait until NYIAS?

The Chicago Auto Show is Feb 10-19.

 

[Tob]

I could see them throwing Shelby in Vegas a bone and doing something there again. They definitely need a boost as they have all but disappeared from everyone's radar.

 

[conceptmachine]

Thats why I was hoping for a large market auto show. Am thinking aloud but could they POSSIBLY not want a lot of exposure with this thing, especially if its up there in HP? Remember the demon and stigma it got when they released it. The soccer moms/grandmas and tree huggers were pissed off. Ford with its Ecoboost theme, and this car not being 'green', I can see ford not wanting HUGE exposure. I could be wrong about that, but just seems, if they didn't care, they would throw it into a much larger show.