My JLT vs. Airbox testing is complete, results inside.....

[kirbyg16]

So you had to fix a problem with the jlt for it to work? Why then as a customer would I buy a product as simple as an intake and then have to take dremel and wetsand it just to make it perform?
Your intake might work for you now but you modified the product to enhance the effectiveness and that is not what every other customer is going to recieve unfortunately. I know from all the arguments I have read from both camps now that an out of the box in its current version of the intake has some issues but obviously once those items are corrected the item seems to work.
Sucks though that you have to pay over 200 bucks for a piece of plastic and a filter then you have to fix it to see some real world gains.
I would like to see all of the intake creaters not just jlt take note of some of the corrections made and hopefully make revisions.

 

[DIB5.0]

I think this why the Airaid seems to work much better with the insert in at the track than with it out. Same deal. With the insert in it is a much smoother air delivery and less noise introduced.

 

[Mugzy]

You used the same tune for BOTH the JLT and the airbox? Not sure how that's acceptable.

I see minimal MPH gains in the last 1/8 so that tells me it's not making any noticeable amount of power.

Don't need higher math to see that.

EDIT2: ...and without like 50 time-slips this is all really moot. Too many variables, especially with a MT.

 

[TheCPE]

Take away the DA corrections and you have nothing.

If you don't want to do DA corrections, next time try to not have 3 hours between part A and B that are being tested. And if you are going to have 3 hours between them try to start earlier or later in the day so that one doesn't fall at the absolute hottest point of the day.

Then you don't need to "bench race".

Further, don't even use the DA corrections then.

You still picked up only 7.4hp based on the mph pickup in the last 1/8 of the track.

I think it is apparent that the real world gains are less than 5hp for this CAI, if however DA corrections are that obscene use the 7.4hp number. That is still a far cry from the claimed 15hp.

 

[Laloosh]

I've already done that.




Those are the Kinetic energy calculations for both JLT and stock box. The mass used was 1750kg. You can find all the other numbers required on the time slips. Those would be the velocities at the 1/8 and 1/4 mile as well as the delta time.

Once you finish that, make sure to apply the DA calculation.


Goodluck

Keep dodging

 

[MikeLTDLX]

Nice times mike. When we get some -da next year that thing is really going to fly. Found out how bad the temp kills et last weekend.

Yeah, it hurts. I will keep running this car and dialing it in. The suspension needs help.

look at that, some pretty solid testing that shows results in favor of the JLT, and the three stooges(well, moe and curly anyways) show up to spin their pseudoscience to "prove" it wrong:lol: go ahead guys, throw more ad hominems my way!

good stuff mike! certainly not perfect, but it really looks like you minimized a lot of the variables that you could, and produced some consistent results! best of all, you took the critiques offered by others to improve your method of testing!
did you notice any change in track conditions from morning through afternoon? tires were pretty consistent i'm sure since they're fresh. any significant wind throughout the day?(the more info the better!)

this isn't the nail in the coffin by any means(IMO), lots of work left to do before we see a clear answer, but certainly a step in the right direction as far as quality testing is concerned.

Thanks.

So you had to fix a problem with the jlt for it to work? Why then as a customer would I buy a product as simple as an intake and then have to take dremel and wetsand it just to make it perform?
Your intake might work for you now but you modified the product to enhance the effectiveness and that is not what every other customer is going to recieve unfortunately. I know from all the arguments I have read from both camps now that an out of the box in its current version of the intake has some issues but obviously once those items are corrected the item seems to work.
Sucks though that you have to pay over 200 bucks for a piece of plastic and a filter then you have to fix it to see some real world gains.
I would like to see all of the intake creaters not just jlt take note of some of the corrections made and hopefully make revisions.

I modified it because I was told by someone who would know that it may clean up some of the noise in the signal. It is not as if the JLT was not functioning beforehand, or this "magic trick" gained 3 mph. I passed my results on to Jay as well.

You used the same tune for BOTH the JLT and the airbox? Not sure how that's acceptable.

I see minimal MPH gains in the last 1/8 so that tells me it's not making any noticeable amount of power.

Don't need higher math to see that.

EDIT2: ...and without like 50 time-slips this is all really moot. Too many variables, especially with a MT.

It is the same basic tune, with the MAF transfer function tweaked and a couple other tweaks for the JLT. It is not a more powerful tune with more timing or a leaner commanded lambda.

If you don't want to do DA corrections, next time try to not have 3 hours between part A and B that are being tested. And if you are going to have 3 hours between them try to start earlier or later in the day so that one doesn't fall at the absolute hottest point of the day.

Then you don't need to "bench race".

Further, don't even use the DA corrections then.

You still picked up only 7.4hp based on the mph pickup in the last 1/8 of the track.

I think it is apparent that the real world gains are less than 5hp for this CAI, if however DA corrections are that obscene use the 7.4hp number. That is still a far cry from the claimed 15hp.

The DA everyone is relying on is wrong. I realized this morning that SCR has failed to set back the clocks for daylight savings. The track did not even begin tech until after 10 a.m. So, all of the slips are showing one hour too early in the day. I made my first pass of the day (missed two shifts) and 10:58 a.m.

Mike

 

[TheCPE]

The DA everyone is relying on is wrong.

What temps, humidity and pressure are you using then for each time slip you posted?

-----

Mike for one second just think about the two time slips you are using as proof that the JLT gave you 15hp. In the last 1/8 with the JLT you picked up 26.75 mph, in the last 1/8 with the stock box you picked up 26.74 mph.

You drove better man, and for a manual car that is some good driving. If there were truly a 15hp difference you would have picked up more mph in the last 1/8 with the JLT. :shrug:

 

[AluminatorSnake]

Congrats Mike, thanks for your time and effort to the mustang community. There are those few that are dead against CAI products and will clutter up every single thread, and still fail to sway anyones opinion. Im glad shaun and yourself have created a strong running car.

For the sake of shutting those few up, I would love to see this test on a dyno at Arrington or another facility that has a speed matching wind tunnel to completely eliminate variables with an auto car, such as cross wind, straight line, atmospheric changes, car temps, temperatures or track conditions. The majority of dynos have a 1/4 mile simulation program that could be useful to this product.

 

[mikestoyz]

Mike, I looked at my time slips, and my first run says its at 9:38.....
Which we know damn well it wasnt since gates open at 10 and I got there at 10:10..

So, the times listed on the timeslip were 1 hour early.

 

[ViciousJay]

Mike great times but i could help but think of this

Welcome to the Internet. You post a time slip, someone wants a dyno sheet. You post a dyno sheet, someone wants a time slip. You post both, and someone wants a video. You post all three and everyone calls BS.

:lol1: again great times, i except to see a mid 11 by oct. I wish i lived with you guys, the wedding planning is killing me and i hate it and wish i could make an excuse to go do something better with my weekends

 

[mikestoyz]

Mike great times but i could help but think of this

Welcome to the Internet. You post a time slip, someone wants a dyno sheet. You post a dyno sheet, someone wants a time slip. You post both, and someone wants a video. You post all three and everyone calls BS.

:lol1: again great times, i except to see a mid 11 by oct. I wish i lived with you guys, the wedding planning is killing me and i hate it and wish i could make an excuse to go do something better with my weekends

:rockon:
And it wont be until November, its still hot as balls here in October!

 

[TheCPE]

There are those few that are dead against CAI products and will clutter up every single thread, and still fail to sway anyones opinion.

The same exact thing could be said of “those few” that are dead set on convincing themselves and everyone else that a CAI will add 15hp. The difference is I’m using the guy’s own time slips to point out there wasn’t a 15hp gain instead of just calling people that disagree “haters”.

Looking at the data from all the tests that have been done 5hp is about what you are going to gain from a CAI. I think it is very interesting that wbt’s runs showed almost the same gain as mike’s going down the drag strip.

You post a time slip, someone wants a dyno sheet. You post a dyno sheet, someone wants a time slip. You post both, and someone wants a video. You post all three and everyone calls BS.

The only argument is what the DA was for each run but mike says it is bench racing to apply a correction. That leaves just looking at the mph pickup in the last 1/8 between the runs. They were the same, with a very small delta T difference, which results in the very small hp difference.

 

[ViciousJay]

The only argument is what the DA was for each run but mike says it is bench racing to apply a correction. That leaves just looking at the mph pickup in the last 1/8 between the runs. They were the same, with a very small delta T difference, which results in the very small hp difference.

i was just trying to lighten up the mood :lol1:

 

[Tucker]

If you pick apart the slips with the same 60'
from 1/8 - 1/4 stock box gained 26.75 MPH
from 1/8 - 1/4 JLT run gained 27.36 MPH

 

[AluminatorSnake]

The same exact thing could be said of “those few” that are dead set on convincing themselves and everyone else that a CAI will add 15hp. The difference is I’m using the guy’s own time slips to point out there wasn’t a 15hp gain instead of just calling people that disagree “haters”.

Looking at the data from all the tests that have been done 5hp is about what you are going to gain from a CAI. I think it is very interesting that wbt’s runs showed almost the same gain as mike’s going down the drag strip.

Im not trying to convince anyone seeing that the majority of this forum already, from the start, agrees that they work. If that wasnt the case, sales would drop in all CAI.
Im only stating the car is faster with the JLT, and has an ability to be faster when the driver extracts every ounce out of it.

You first started with they dont work, then its a problem with hood open vs closed dyno testing, now its the claimed hp.

If you are so dead set on claimed hp, please write an email and send it to every god damned company that sells catback exhaust systems about their 15-30 hp gains they claim to get.

You cant have 100% accurate mathematical answers without 100% accurate data. Thats why this test needs to be done a 1/4 simulating dyno run, in a place such as Arringtons facility to be able to speed match the wind and control every factor.

 

[MikeLTDLX]

What temps, humidity and pressure are you using then for each time slip you posted?

-----

Mike for one second just think about the two time slips you are using as proof that the JLT gave you 15hp. In the last 1/8 with the JLT you picked up 26.75 mph, in the last 1/8 with the stock box you picked up 26.74 mph.

You drove better man, and for a manual car that is some good driving. If there were truly a 15hp difference you would have picked up more mph in the last 1/8 with the JLT. :shrug:

Like I said, I think 10-15 hp.

The DA was off by an hour. So, the box had the best DA of the day. Here is how it breaks down:

JLT run #1 , 11.952 @ 118.79 was done with a temp of 84 degrees, barometric pressure of 30 inches and 53% humidity. That is a DA of 1851 and a corrected time of 11.7 flat @ 121.4

JLT best run, 11.925 @ 119.42 was done with a temp of 84.2 degrees, barometric pressure of 30 inches and 51% humidity. That is a DA of 1855 and a corrected time of 11.67 @ 122.

The best box run, 12.016 @ 117.84 was done with an overcast temp of 82.9 degrees, barometric pressure of 29.98 and 56% humidity. DA was 1811 and a corrected time of 11.769 @ 120.368.

The corrected time between the top dog JLT run and the top dog box run (where the JLT had a 1.7 60 foot and the box had 1.67) shows the JLT was .99 of a tenth quicker, and 1.632 mph faster.

The corrected time between the JLT run where the 60 foots were identical shows that the JLT was .69 tenths quicker and 1.032 mph faster.

Like I said, between 10-15 hp to be gained from the JLT.

In a sport where winning or losing can come down to a thousandth of a second, I will take any and all gains I can get. The JLT was faster and quicker. End of story, period, done.

Mike, I looked at my time slips, and my first run says its at 9:38.....
Which we know damn well it wasnt since gates open at 10 and I got there at 10:10..

So, the times listed on the timeslip were 1 hour early.

Yep, see above. Actually worked out even better for the comparison. :beer:

Mike

 

[bubbrubb]

Nice job testing, although I think it's not out of the ordinary to have some variability throughout the course of the day if the DA is going to change almost 400 feet, even without changes.

If I had a 5.0, I'd probably make a CAI one of my later mods when I'm looking to make the car more complete (if I were keeping to simple bolt ons).

I don't have a horse in this race, but IMO the aesthetic and auditory gains are the primary purpose of an intake on the 5.0

I think that if you're looking for a big improvement over stock in performance, I don't think an intake is the answer. It doesn't hurt anything thought IMO. The JLT is going to be one of the best CAIs on the market, and if that can't get definitive results (when the car is not on a dyno) then the stock box does a good enough job for most. I wish the intake were a clear winner for performance, but I just don't see it being as clear cut as we are used to seeing.

edit: So, IF all things were equalized between runs; the JLT intake was good for 0.069 seconds and 1.032 mph.
Feeling lazy - anybody care to do the back 1/8th mph correction and compare them? That's the better comparison of power while moving, although the majority of street driving is done under those speeds.

Also, not that anybody has them, but I'd like to see V box comparisons on something where it is just running out 3rd gear or something on the street from a low RPM to redline.

 

[SicShelby09]

Like I said, I think 10-15 hp.

The DA was off by an hour. So, the box had the best DA of the day. Here is how it breaks down:

JLT run #1 , 11.952 @ 118.79 was done with a temp of 84 degrees, barometric pressure of 30 inches and 53% humidity. That is a DA of 1851 and a corrected time of 11.7 flat @ 121.4

JLT best run, 11.925 @ 119.42 was done with a temp of 84.2 degrees, barometric pressure of 30 inches and 51% humidity. That is a DA of 1855 and a corrected time of 11.67 @ 122.

The best box run, 12.016 @ 117.84 was done with an overcast temp of 82.9 degrees, barometric pressure of 29.98 and 56% humidity. DA was 1811 and a corrected time of 11.769 @ 120.368.

The corrected time between the top dog JLT run and the top dog box run (where the JLT had a 1.7 60 foot and the box had 1.67) shows the JLT was .99 of a tenth quicker, and 1.632 mph faster.

The corrected time between the JLT run where the 60 foots were identical shows that the JLT was .69 tenths quicker and 1.032 mph faster.

Like I said, between 10-15 hp to be gained from the JLT.

In a sport where winning or losing can come down to a thousandth of a second, I will take any and all gains I can get. The JLT was faster and quicker. End of story, period, done.



Yep, see above. Actually worked out even better for the comparison. :beer:

Mike

Mike, forgive me if you already answered this question. What two step where you using in that in-car video?? Was it the neutral rpm limiter or a real two step?

 

[TheCPE]

i was just trying to lighten up the mood :lol1:

:beer:

If you pick apart the slips with the same 60'
from 1/8 - 1/4 stock box gained 26.75 MPH
from 1/8 - 1/4 JLT run gained 27.36 MPH

Originally when I analyzed those two and did DA corrections since they were 3 hours apart someone (I think Mike) wanted to use the best JLT run vs stock box run since they were only 2 hours apart and the reasoning was then you wouldn’t need to do DA corrections since that is bench racing.

Either way there was a 10hp differential between the JLT and stock box run that were 3 hours apart and a 7.4hp difference between the JLT and stock box run that were 2 hours apart without correcting for DA. If you do the DA corrections it comes out to ~5 hp for both.

If that wasnt the case, sales would drop in all CAI.

That isn’t true, very faulty logic. The idea that people only buy things that are good products and perform as claimed just isn’t true.

You first started with they dont work, then its a problem with hood open vs closed dyno testing, now its the claimed hp.

That is true; originally I didn’t expect there would be a measurable difference. I couldn’t measure a difference with my GPS box, but now two drag strip tests have shown it to be around 5hp. I’m perfectly happy with admitting I’m wrong and it appears to make 5hp based on all the data that has been provided.

If you are so dead set on claimed hp, please write an email and send it to every god damned company that sells catback exhaust systems about their 15-30 hp gains they claim to get.

Again, I’ve tested every mod I’ve put on my car so it isn’t some grudge against CAI makers. All my other mods were easily measured to gain what was claimed. And I didn't think it was ground breaking news that aftermarket parts hp claims are exaggerated...

You cant have 100% accurate mathematical answers without 100% accurate data. Thats why this test needs to be done a 1/4 simulating dyno run, in a place such as Arringtons facility to be able to speed match the wind and control every factor.

That would be great. However, with all the tests that have been done I think it is apparent that claims of 15hp for a CAI are an exaggeration.

 

[MikeLTDLX]

Mike, forgive me if you already answered this question. What two step where you using in that in-car video?? Was it the neutral rpm limiter or a real two step?

I used the neutral limiter from the SCT. It is a fuel cut, so it is a bit slower and more aggressive than something like an MSD, but it works just fine. I never went above 3/4 throttle sitting on it though.

Mike