z/28 vs 911 Carrera 'S' (993)

[300bhp/ton]

From Wikipedia:

The 911 was developed as a much more powerful, larger, more comfortable replacement for the Porsche 356, the company's first model, and essentially a sporting evolution of the Volkswagen Beetle.

In 1968 the B series was introduced: the wheelbase for all 911 and 912 models was increased from 2211 mm to 2268 mm, an effective remedy to the car's nervous handling at the limit.

Porsche did was relocate the oil tank from its position behind the right rear wheel to in front of it. This had the effect of moving the weight of almost 9 quarts of oil from outside the wheelbase to inside, improving the handling.

From 4 Car:

The 911 is the ultimate sports car for many enthusiasts and the quintessential Porsche. It embodies the company's tradition of exceptional engineering and truly timeless styling. Air cooled, 'flat' six cylinder engine not only makes a distinctive sound, but is mounted where the boot ought to be, promoting 'tail happy' handling for a generation and the belief that only 'real' drivers could actually tame them.

Another car website:

Early 911s had a fearsome reputation for swapping ends on the unwary press-on driver, particularly in the wet.

Autozine:

In theory, 911's rear-engined layout was nothing other than old-fashion - it was simply an evolution from VW Beetle and Porsche 356.

To novice drivers, handling the 911 was always a headache. You know its power slide enabled you to corner in the style of Stirling Moss, but that was neither easily accessible nor fool-proof. You must practice a lot to know how to live on the knife edge. However, to keen drivers, it was more like a demonstration of their superior driving skill, hence delivering driving pleasure and satisfaction unfound in other cars.

Do you want more?

I think this backs up what I said. Not they can't handle, but simply

1. They where never initailly designed for it, i.e. using Beetle under pinnings.

2. They have a fearsome reputation.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Fishey]

For pitys sake READ my posts, don't just hear what you want.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also are you seriously dening that early 911's aren't a handful? Espcially on a tight twisted, bumpy B road. Oh hang on I bet you've never even driven on such a road have you?

No the early 911's from 1969+ are not a handful they are prefect if you know how to drive them. That is the problem most people drive them incorrectly and I have witnessed this time and time again.

1. Lay off with the racial slurs, or is that the level you have to stoop down too.

First, its not a racial slur its just that I noticed you are from England and drive a mullet machine. Aka "English Mullet"

SHOW ME WHERE I SAID (WITH A QUOTE) THE PORSHCE ISN'T A GOOD TRACK CAR!

You claim it can't handle and the only reason it wins is because of numbers. Enough said...

Ok then if you are a Pro, what is your profession? What claim do you have to be a Pro.

Or is it mearly the size of your wallet has deluded you. Being rich does not make you a pro. And claiming to be so under such circumstances makes you a twat.

Funny that you ask.

My profession is Mechanic/Amature Driver. However, the jobs I have done over the years depends on what Pro team/shop I am with. Currently, I am racing NASA/SCCA/PCA in our shop race car and working at the shop. I have alot of DE experiance as well with multiple cars. I also compeate in various car TT shootouts with my own personal porsche (this one is non-911).

just FYI... one of my good friends is a pro driver but was unable to find a ride this year in Indy Pro Series. I have faster 911 lap times then he does in the same car. If you want to talk about my ability to drive cars. My true calling is setting up race cars for other drivers.

So popularity means good does it? Flawed logic I think. More V6 Mustangs exist than V8's, so does that mean the V6 is the better car?

Although being picky I do know the point you are trying to make. But there's more to it in racing, price and factory support help a lot. And as Porshce is one of the most profitable car makers in this day its easy for them to supply read to race cars also. Smaller company's like TVR and Morgan don't have the financial resources to fun it in the same manor.


although when TVR where campagining in the British FIA chapionship in the same class as Porsche they actually did very well.

First, Your mustang analogy stinks becuase its racing not daily use. If you where racing every team would have a V8 and not a V6. Second, Factory support from porsche doesn't apply to 90% of the teams out there. Third, In the states we don't get to enjoy TVR or Morgan on the tracks or streets.

 

[300bhp/ton]

No the early 911's from 1969+ are not a handful they are prefect if you know how to drive them. That is the problem most people drive them incorrectly and I have witnessed this time and time again.

I hear what you are saying, many cars are ticky to drive, but in the right hands are awesome. However I think you are splitting hairs. Most dirvers are not great, even those who race.

It's like saying a machine gun is easy to handle, well yes it is if you know how, but most people don't. So therefore they can be considered a handlful.

Or if you are liking it to only people in the know where does it stop. The space shuttle, if you know how to fly it, it's proabably pretty easy. But for most people they won't have a clue.

The funny thing is, I'm not disagreeing. But whether you personally find a 911 easy or difficult to drive is not the question. I mearly stated that they had a reputation, which they do.

First, its not a racial slur its just that I noticed you are from England and drive a mullet machine. Aka "English Mullet"

eh?

I have no idea what a mullet machine is. Fbody's, Stangs, Vettes are very rare here and very exclusive. I haven't seen an Fbody on the roads in like 2 months, where as I see 4-5 Porsches (mostly new ones) each day. And usually a few Aston Martins per week and lot and lots of Mercs and BMW's, espcially M3's.

You claim it can't handle

No once again you haven't READ what I have typed. I said originally not designed for handling, this would mean way back 40 years ago. And again with reputation 911's have. Not that they can't handle.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

and the only reason it wins is because of numbers. Enough said...

Not the only reason, but any mathematician would say it helps. And you have to admit if you have a field of some 20 cars and 12 are 911's and others consist of BMW, TVR, Lotus, Marcos, Morgan then the odds on Porsche snatching a win are heavily stacked in their favour.

But that aside, the 911 has won plenty over the years. And the modern 911 is very capable, I love to see them in the wet because with the extra traction offered by the rear engine layout they often lap faster than the more powerful GT1 and 2 cars.

Funny that you ask.

My profession is Mechanic/Amature Driver. However, the jobs I have done over the years depends on what Pro team/shop I am with. Currently, I am racing NASA/SCCA/PCA in our shop race car and working at the shop. I have alot of DE experiance as well with multiple cars. I also compeate in various car TT shootouts with my own personal porsche (this one is non-911).

just FYI... one of my good friends is a pro driver but was unable to find a ride this year in Indy Pro Series. I have faster 911 lap times then he does in the same car. If you want to talk about my ability to drive cars. My true calling is setting up race cars for other drivers.

Sounds like a cool job.

First, Your mustang analogy stinks becuase its racing not daily use.

Stink it may, but it doesn't alter the truth of the statement.

If you where racing every team would have a V8 and not a V6.

Not sure I understand that statement, many teams have done very well with 6 cylinder engines. The Jaguar E-Type dominated and was very successfull up against Chevy and Ford V8 power and Ferrari V12's.

Second, Factory support from porsche doesn't apply to 90% of the teams out there.

Not direct support, but they provide the basis for the competition cars. Such as a ready built car like the GT3. Or indeed in such simple things as R&D and off the shelf components. You know exactly what shocks to run and what type of cam and I'm sure all are off the shelf items, because there are so many Porsches racing. With smaller teams using more obscurer cars it often falls on them to do the R&D and to even manufacter the parts.

Third, In the states we don't get to enjoy TVR or Morgan on the tracks or streets.

Sadly you don't. Although Morgans certainly used to be available. I guess they no longer are.

______________

All this asside, I still think you have missed my point, and prats such as Almo only hinder the matter.

Here in black & white:

Q. Do I think moder Porsches are capable (i.e. road cars for Jo Public to buy and use)?
A. Yes, espcially from the 993 onwards

Q. Do I think 911's can't handle?
A. No. Just that ehy wheren't designed for it intially, and they have taken their fair share of victims on the open roads.

Q. Do I think 911's can't win races?
A. No. But times have changed, as the 911 used to compeat against Vipers, Lister Storms and such in the British GT1 class. This is no longer the case because they became less competative.


Although it is interesting to note, that as already established the 911 is very capable. But Porsche themselfs evidently see things differently. The fastest cars made by Porsche are the 911 GT1 and the Carrera GT, both you will note are mid engined and not rear. Why? If the rear layout is so superior why would Porshce forsake it?

This follow on further, the 2 most recent Porshces are also not rear engined but mid engined in the form of the Boxster and Cayman. Again why forsake the Porsche trademark?

The 911 will while it continues to sell remain rear engined. This I am sure. Because if it was not rear engined it just wouldn't be a 911.

But here's another poser for you, if the rear engine layout is so good, why are there not more rear engined cars out there?

 

[Adam_346]

Nah I think the 1st Carrera S the 993 shape not the 996 only had like 285bhp and about 1400kg (3080lb).

I'm pretty close to stock, just a few bolt ons at present. Still it was nice to win, and you should have seen the guy in the Porsche afterwards - he was furious :lol:

Love the look on rich peoples faces