Trying to go return system - please help

[black 10th vert]

I thought long and hard on that one. The aeromotive regulator I have is a really nice looking unit and it wouldn't look bad but I really wanted to try and clean up the engine bay. I went back and forth on this one for hours tonight while mocking up all the pieces under the hood. My conclusion below.



I thought of doing something like that myself but how would you ever service that or replace the fuel filter element without pulling the tank? Or are you just not that concerned with it?
While probably very minor I wanted to eliminate as many 90 degree fittings as possible so moved my filter just in front of the IRS where the lines go straight in and out and it's accessible. Your way is more hidden though.


After hours of moving stuff around under the hood looking for a layout I liked I finally abandoned the dual feed on the rails and out letting each fuel rail to the regulator. While possible it requires I put the regulator on the driver's side of the blower which is not that bad but I like it better out of site by the passenger's side shock tower. I could only fit it in there with one hose so this is my new layout pretty much (old pic from earlier in the thread... was one of my earlier ideas). That -10 supply will actually change to a -8 in the passenger's fender well just before exposing itself under the hood to the rail so all the lines look the same under the hood.

This layout will still flow a ton more fuel than I will probably ever use and if I ever do out grow it all I have to do is move the regulator and run a few new hoses. Not that big a deal.

That is the exact layout that I came up with, and how mine is already configured in the returnless setup. I wanted to get everything as close as possible so that all I had to do was run the return line, filter, and regulator to complete the system. I may upgrade the feed line too, but haven't committed to anything just yet. The only difference I will probably make is to mount the regulator somewhere on the driver's side. I am planning on using the Fore one, and since it looks so good, I won't care that it shows.;-)

 

[earico]

I thought long and hard on that one. The aeromotive regulator I have is a really nice looking unit and it wouldn't look bad but I really wanted to try and clean up the engine bay. I went back and forth on this one for hours tonight while mocking up all the pieces under the hood. My conclusion below.



I thought of doing something like that myself but how would you ever service that or replace the fuel filter element without pulling the tank? Or are you just not that concerned with it?
While probably very minor I wanted to eliminate as many 90 degree fittings as possible so moved my filter just in front of the IRS where the lines go straight in and out and it's accessible. Your way is more hidden though.


After hours of moving stuff around under the hood looking for a layout I liked I finally abandoned the dual feed on the rails and out letting each fuel rail to the regulator. While possible it requires I put the regulator on the driver's side of the blower which is not that bad but I like it better out of site by the passenger's side shock tower. I could only fit it in there with one hose so this is my new layout pretty much (old pic from earlier in the thread... was one of my earlier ideas). That -10 supply will actually change to a -8 in the passenger's fender well just before exposing itself under the hood to the rail so all the lines look the same under the hood.

This layout will still flow a ton more fuel than I will probably ever use and if I ever do out grow it all I have to do is move the regulator and run a few new hoses. Not that big a deal.

This new diagram works but your previous diagram with the y block before the rails was a better design. It insured a more even flow of fuel to both rails. I would worry about some cylinders being leaner than others with your new diagram.

 

[MalcolmV8]

This new diagram works but your previous diagram with the y block before the rails was a better design. It insured a more even flow of fuel to both rails. I would worry about some cylinders being leaner than others with your new diagram.

Yeah I thought about that too but really when you see how thick -10 and -8 fuel line is and the aluminum fuel rails I just don't see that been an issue. Then look at the stock fuel line and it looks about -3 AN size and it went into two dead ended rails fed at one point. I have -10 coming up to now massively larger diameter rails flowing all the way through one, through the other and then hitting the regulator. As long as pressure stays at that regulator pressure is staying all the way through the fuel rails.

Also the way I'm plumbing it has the outlet from the second rail where the stock fuel pressure regulator is so if checking fuel pressure when data logging you're getting the potentially lowest point of pressure.

I think it'll be fine.

 

[MalcolmV8]

The only problem you might run into is clearance with those long sweep 90's you have at the rear of the rails. In my setup, I had to buy a low profile 90 deg. fitting which screwed directly into the o-ring port on the driver's side rear in order to clear my EGR.

I was mocking this up tonight and found the 90 degree fittings don't extend far enough back behind the blower so I'm going to have to swap them out for 45 degree fittings.

I also found the supply hose hitting the front passenger's side of the rail doesn't fit. I need a 30 degree fitting it looks like.

 

[MalcolmV8]

Here is a link where I tried it. Fuel press kept falling off bad.
building a return fuel system!

Hey Bud, from you link above I found this pic of your car. What angle fitting did you use on the end of the fuel rail there? front passenger's side? Is that a 45 or 30 degree fitting?

Thanks
Malcolm

 

[sn94cobra]

I think it may have been a 30.

 

[black03]

I think it may have been a 30.

A 45 will work as well.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I think it may have been a 30.

A 45 will work as well.

Thanks guys. I ordered a couple 45s for the rear of the rails last night and a 30 for the front. We'll see how it goes

 

[earico]

Yeah I thought about that too but really when you see how thick -10 and -8 fuel line is and the aluminum fuel rails I just don't see that been an issue. Then look at the stock fuel line and it looks about -3 AN size and it went into two dead ended rails fed at one point. I have -10 coming up to now massively larger diameter rails flowing all the way through one, through the other and then hitting the regulator. As long as pressure stays at that regulator pressure is staying all the way through the fuel rails.

Also the way I'm plumbing it has the outlet from the second rail where the stock fuel pressure regulator is so if checking fuel pressure when data logging you're getting the potentially lowest point of pressure.

I think it'll be fine.

You may be fine with it....you may not.

IMO Force induction is just not something you want to take a shortcut on the fuel with. With this new setup the last injector in the daisy chain will have less fuel available to it. There will be pressure drop across 8 injectors. So on the dyno you will tune the AFR to be spot on but the O2 reading isn't taken on each cylinder. So you are going to have that 1st injected cylinder a little rich and the 8th one a little lean.

All the high HP twin turbo vettes I have seen are done like your other diagram with the Y before the rails. It's just the better way. Your new way will work but for how long?

 

[MalcolmV8]

You may be fine with it....you may not.

IMO Force induction is just not something you want to take a shortcut on the fuel with. With this new setup the last injector in the daisy chain will have less fuel available to it. There will be pressure drop across 8 injectors. So on the dyno you will tune the AFR to be spot on but the O2 reading isn't taken on each cylinder. So you are going to have that 1st injected cylinder a little rich and the 8th one a little lean.

All the high HP twin turbo vettes I have seen are done like your other diagram with the Y before the rails. It's just the better way. Your new way will work but for how long?

Yup I hear you man. I've been having that argument in my head for days... weeks. Playing out the pros and cons to each over and over in my head. There's no easy answer because we have no flow specs or numbers to go by. For all we know the -8 and fore/divx rails can flow enough fuel daisy chained for 1500 + whp.... or maybe only 800 whp. We just don't know is the problem so a lot of the design is done on speculation. I completely agree doing a Y block and feeding each rail with its own supply would support more HP but is it even remotely unnecessary? We just don't know.

Who knows when I step into the garage to plumb this up when my new parts arrive I may still go ahead and do the Y block and dual feed setup. Just depends which argument is winning in my head at that moment lol.

 

[earico]

Yup I hear you man. I've been having that argument in my head for days... weeks. Playing out the pros and cons to each over and over in my head. There's no easy answer because we have no flow specs or numbers to go by. For all we know the -8 and fore/divx rails can flow enough fuel daisy chained for 1500 + whp.... or maybe only 800 whp. We just don't know is the problem so a lot of the design is done on speculation. I completely agree doing a Y block and feeding each rail with its own supply would support more HP but is it even remotely unnecessary? We just don't know.

Who knows when I step into the garage to plumb this up when my new parts arrive I may still go ahead and do the Y block and dual feed setup. Just depends which argument is winning in my head at that moment lol.

I have arguments like that with myself all the time too! :lol1: :beer:

Just trying to make sure you've looked at it from all angles. Good luck man! :beer:

 

[MalcolmV8]

Hey Bud, from you link above I found this pic of your car. What angle fitting did you use on the end of the fuel rail there? front passenger's side? Is that a 45 or 30 degree fitting?

Thanks
Malcolm

I think it may have been a 30.

A 45 will work as well.

Just an update for others searching later and find this thread. You need a 45. My 30 degree finally arrived today (was on back order forever) and while the angle is more preferred over the 45 for hose routing it's sandwiched up against the coolant pipe to where a hose won't fit over the end correctly.
Also the 30 requires unbolting the lower intake and raising the assembly to install it where as the 45 has just enough clearance to spin on and off without lifting the lower intake.
So guess I need one more 45.

 

[black 10th vert]

Just an update for others searching later and find this thread. You need a 45. My 30 degree finally arrived today (was on back order forever) and while the angle is more preferred over the 45 for hose routing it's sandwiched up against the coolant pipe to where a hose won't fit over the end correctly.
Also the 30 requires unbolting the lower intake and raising the assembly to install it where as the 45 has just enough clearance to spin on and off without lifting the lower intake.
So guess I need one more 45.

Yeah, I figured it was going to be tight there, so I went with the 45 when I did mine (should have told told you that - sorry).

 

[MalcolmV8]

Yeah, I figured it was going to be tight there, so I went with the 45 when I did mine (should have told told you that - sorry).

No worries, now we know it's definitely a 45 you want there and not maybe a 30

 

['03snkbt]

just installed mine this past week. here's how i routed:
from tank / to filter / to Y-block (mounted to backside pass strut tower) / (1st) line to front of pass rail out to reg-----(2nd) line to back of drivers rail out to reg / return line to tank on drivers side.

where i mounted reg:

fitting info:
under y-block (45* from feed line)
out of y-block #1-(45* to 45* @ pass front rail / out 90* to straight @ reg)----#2-(90* to 90* @ drivers back rail / out 120* to 90* @ reg)
out of reg straight and tucked under drivers side to tank.
this kept majority of lines out of sight!

 

[MalcolmV8]

I also used that Fragola braided hose for the short runs in my engine bay, but plan to buy the Teflon lined type for the rest of the long runs, as some people say that the Fragola stuff weeps the gas smell which would be completely unacceptable to me. I have not noticed any of that with the short runs that I have now, though.

Well I got my fuel hose run and tested it out last night. Initially I didn't smell anything but today it stinks like gas so bad I can't believe it. You'd think there's a leak but there's not. I've checked and double checked, every joint is dry and clean.

I came home today and had to not only air out my garage but my whole house stinks like gas. After airing out the garage real good I did some more looking around and found if you get under the car and just start sniffing around it's the fuel line itself that stinks. Under the body of the car is long runs with no joins so there's no possibility of a leak yet it clearly smells bad. I don't see how the fuel line can stink like that without leaking. It's horrible.
While googling Fragola hose I found some other forums where people complained of the same issue but others said no it's fine. So I checked with Lethal before purchasing and they assured me it does not smell.
I'm hoping there's just something wrong somewhere that I'm missing that can be fixed but I'm not hopeful when you can put your nose to the hose and clearly smell it as the strong source of the odor.

 

[MalcolmV8]

I'm at a loss as to this gas smell. I've pulled apart a ton of stuff tonight, pulled out the passenger's front wheel, wheel well etc., cut out zip ties, pulled back lines, pulled out the fuel pressure regulator, traced and inspected every inch of the fuel line.
Even dropped the gas tank again and double inspected and checked all the connections there. I can't find a single leak or even a trace of it. I took a clean white cleanex and ran it around each connection. Not a mark or trace of wetness.

My garage stinks so bad though it's like I have an open gas can in there. It's unbearable. It's freezing out and I'm working with all the garage doors open it smells so bad.
When smelling around on the car the only source of fuel smell I'm finding so far is the fuel lines themselves. Especially the lines under the bottom of the car. They stink like raw fuel.

I'm at a loss, what else can I check? I can't believe these lines could possible stink this bad? I mean if that's the case they are completely worthless.

 

[SVT_Troy]

Damn that blows and sounds totally unacceptable to me as well! I've been following your thread and learned a great deal. Thanks for posting everything and hope you figure out the smell issue

 

[2003Slobra]

Well I got my fuel hose run and tested it out last night. Initially I didn't smell anything but today it stinks like gas so bad I can't believe it. You'd think there's a leak but there's not. I've checked and double checked, every joint is dry and clean.

I came home today and had to not only air out my garage but my whole house stinks like gas. After airing out the garage real good I did some more looking around and found if you get under the car and just start sniffing around it's the fuel line itself that stinks. Under the body of the car is long runs with no joins so there's no possibility of a leak yet it clearly smells bad. I don't see how the fuel line can stink like that without leaking. It's horrible.
While googling Fragola hose I found some other forums where people complained of the same issue but others said no it's fine. So I checked with Lethal before purchasing and they assured me it does not smell.
I'm hoping there's just something wrong somewhere that I'm missing that can be fixed but I'm not hopeful when you can put your nose to the hose and clearly smell it as the strong source of the odor.

Malcolm,

I'm sorry to hear that you are experiencing these issues with the Fragola fuel hose. We would certainly not try to sell you something that we don't feel is up to standards. This is the same product we run on all of our shop cars as well as personal cars and we have yet to experience any smell left behind.

We don't want to leave you unsatisfied however and most certainly do not want to leave your garage smelling like a gas can. Give me a call and we can discuss some options. I have some hose here I can send you out a sample of and see if you are more comfortable running this product.

I'll be in the office all day so call me when you have a chance.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[raym5_0]

isnt there a charcoal canister for fuel vapors in the passenger wheel well? if you remove your gas cap does there seem to more pressure? you might want to check all your connections when you did your EGR delete. may just be fuel vapors and not an actual leek.