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The JLT vs. Stock Airbox with AED tune results and discussion thread
- Thread starter MikeLTDLX
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Thanks man. I would change the cliff notes to:
CAI shows potential gains at track, sounds great, can be tuned, need more results.
LOL. This is what makes hot rodding fun!
Mike
I bought the JLT painted CAI for nothing if not for the look. I like the look of mine in the engine bay. Anyone that has been following Mikes posts the last several weeks can clearly see he's not blowing smoke up anyone's a$$. He clearly knows what he's doing, as does Shaun. If Mike feels he picked up some results with the JLT, that's good enough for me.
My results this evening:
**Moderator has posted the data here instead of redirecting to another site**
Finally got the 2012 back out after making some changes when the car ran a 11.88@119 in negative DA.
Mods done since last outing:
Circle D 5C converter
Pypes full exhaust with catted x-pipe
3.31 rear gear
Rear control arms and brackets
Strange front brakes
Shaftmaster alum. DS
We did a few comparison runs with the JLT CAI vs. stock. We got 2 clean passes with the JLT before the track got hosed down and the timing lights run over. After a 1+ hour wait and swapping the stock CAI and uploading the tune, with the only change being the MAF transfer function, we squeezed in 2 more runs.
Results:
JLT CAI
11.34@122 60' - 1.62 DA 1,880
11.35@122 60' - 1.64 DA 1,671
Stock CAI
11.49@119 60' - 1.74 <-------I loaded the car up too much on the converter and spun terribly DA 1,208
11.31@119 60' - 1.61 DA 1,208
Notice the 3MPH difference however bear in mind the timing lights were run over. kdanner took his car and ran as well. After the lights were fixed, he also dropped 3MPH running almost identical ET's before the lights were taken out. Everyone at the track was running 3MPH slower with similar ET's.
Breaking everything down to correct for DA to see how much the car gained with these mods:
Previous corrected time 11.94@118
Current corrected time 11.16@123 <-----base-lining at 122 as the car with the stock CAI was running faster and quicker at the 1/8 and 1000'
A gain of almost .8 and 5 MPH. I'll take that any day.
So where do we stand on this CAI debate? I think the stock intake works just as-well-as an aftermarket CAI.
I will be shipping the JLT to TheCPE next week for him to do some testing with and post results.
**Moderator has posted the data here instead of redirecting to another site**
Finally got the 2012 back out after making some changes when the car ran a 11.88@119 in negative DA.
Mods done since last outing:
Circle D 5C converter
Pypes full exhaust with catted x-pipe
3.31 rear gear
Rear control arms and brackets
Strange front brakes
Shaftmaster alum. DS
We did a few comparison runs with the JLT CAI vs. stock. We got 2 clean passes with the JLT before the track got hosed down and the timing lights run over. After a 1+ hour wait and swapping the stock CAI and uploading the tune, with the only change being the MAF transfer function, we squeezed in 2 more runs.
Results:
JLT CAI
11.34@122 60' - 1.62 DA 1,880
11.35@122 60' - 1.64 DA 1,671
Stock CAI
11.49@119 60' - 1.74 <-------I loaded the car up too much on the converter and spun terribly DA 1,208
11.31@119 60' - 1.61 DA 1,208
Notice the 3MPH difference however bear in mind the timing lights were run over. kdanner took his car and ran as well. After the lights were fixed, he also dropped 3MPH running almost identical ET's before the lights were taken out. Everyone at the track was running 3MPH slower with similar ET's.
Breaking everything down to correct for DA to see how much the car gained with these mods:
Previous corrected time 11.94@118
Current corrected time 11.16@123 <-----base-lining at 122 as the car with the stock CAI was running faster and quicker at the 1/8 and 1000'
A gain of almost .8 and 5 MPH. I'll take that any day.
So where do we stand on this CAI debate? I think the stock intake works just as-well-as an aftermarket CAI.
I will be shipping the JLT to TheCPE next week for him to do some testing with and post results.
Tucker
Active Member
Thank you for your test results
Break down of testing on this AUTO car:
2 Consistant 11.30's @ 122 with the JLT
2 Inconsistant times with stock box and 3 mph slower, with an hour and a half cool down.
Spinning on that first run "should have" netted more MPH, but it didn't. Restrictive breathing? maybe?
Best stock box run had the best 60'. So as it should be it was the best run, but MPH was not improved.
MPH = HP
The car had more MPH on BOTH intake runs, oh but wait, the timing lights were run over and all track participants were slower by a whopping 3 mph:rollseyes so that's a null point? huh?
All this testing to help prove an intake is worth .1-.15 and 1-2 MPH, I love it. Keep testing, because so far each and every test has favored the intake runs.
Remember, were looking for a tenth to a tenth and a half or 1-2 MPH and in Mikes test we saw it each run and here in WBT's test we saw it on each run.
On a side note about testing.
Our friends at Muscle Mustangs and Comp Cams are working on an awesome article where they test parts on an engine dyno to see what they "really" make.
They flowed the throttle body at 957 CFM compared to the stock air box at only 772. So it's a restriction.:idea:
They added the JLT CAI and picked up 17 HP and 9 TQ with good gain through out the curve.
So, 17 engine HP, now take out 12-15% for drive train lose and you have 14.45-14.96 rear wheel HP.
Plus an auto car will absorb even more, so more like 10-12 RWHP on an auto.
Exactly what we have seen over and over in testing.
So it's fact that the power's there, it's just up to the tuner to figure out the Tq tables and limiters and than it's up to the driver to get it to the ground.
Great efforts by all parties here in testing, but the debate will go on for ever in the minds of those who are anti "free breathing".
The 2011-12 GT is just like every other "air pump" in the world, let it breathe easier, and it will reward you with more power. :beer:
Break down of testing on this AUTO car:
2 Consistant 11.30's @ 122 with the JLT
2 Inconsistant times with stock box and 3 mph slower, with an hour and a half cool down.
Spinning on that first run "should have" netted more MPH, but it didn't. Restrictive breathing? maybe?
Best stock box run had the best 60'. So as it should be it was the best run, but MPH was not improved.
MPH = HP
The car had more MPH on BOTH intake runs, oh but wait, the timing lights were run over and all track participants were slower by a whopping 3 mph:rollseyes so that's a null point? huh?
All this testing to help prove an intake is worth .1-.15 and 1-2 MPH, I love it. Keep testing, because so far each and every test has favored the intake runs.
Remember, were looking for a tenth to a tenth and a half or 1-2 MPH and in Mikes test we saw it each run and here in WBT's test we saw it on each run.
On a side note about testing.
Our friends at Muscle Mustangs and Comp Cams are working on an awesome article where they test parts on an engine dyno to see what they "really" make.
They flowed the throttle body at 957 CFM compared to the stock air box at only 772. So it's a restriction.:idea:
They added the JLT CAI and picked up 17 HP and 9 TQ with good gain through out the curve.
So, 17 engine HP, now take out 12-15% for drive train lose and you have 14.45-14.96 rear wheel HP.
Plus an auto car will absorb even more, so more like 10-12 RWHP on an auto.
Exactly what we have seen over and over in testing.
So it's fact that the power's there, it's just up to the tuner to figure out the Tq tables and limiters and than it's up to the driver to get it to the ground.
Great efforts by all parties here in testing, but the debate will go on for ever in the minds of those who are anti "free breathing".
The 2011-12 GT is just like every other "air pump" in the world, let it breathe easier, and it will reward you with more power. :beer:
Very consistent runs, and launches.
Definitely looks like the trap speed lights weren't working right for the last runs.
Your 1/8 traps with JLT and stock box were almost identical and the time from 1/8 to the 1/4 mark was identical, 4.09 seconds. For this to be possible, ie covering the same distance in the same 4.09 seconds but having a 2.5mph lower trap either the trap is wrong or your car accelerated more quickly and then flattened out near the end.
Either way with JLT and stock box the ets are nearly identical.
Can't wait to test it with my car and GPS box!
Definitely looks like the trap speed lights weren't working right for the last runs.
Your 1/8 traps with JLT and stock box were almost identical and the time from 1/8 to the 1/4 mark was identical, 4.09 seconds. For this to be possible, ie covering the same distance in the same 4.09 seconds but having a 2.5mph lower trap either the trap is wrong or your car accelerated more quickly and then flattened out near the end.
Either way with JLT and stock box the ets are nearly identical.
Can't wait to test it with my car and GPS box!
As long as the bottleneck is where the improvement is made.
Do any of the CAI kits increase the size of the factory inlet? Or are they drawing air through the same opening, except on the dyno when the hood is up?
I wish the test had come off without a hitch. The trap light issue is a "woulda, coulda, shoulda" type deal, where we don't 100% know the lights were messed up. If they were, and the 3 mph loss was due to the lights being down, then the JLT did absolutely nothing for you, and you actually ran your best ET with the box.
The fact that the JLT provided such a substantial power increase on the engine dyno means 100% that the issue is still the tune with these cars. It is going to take a perfect tune, and a perfect set of runs to show the .15-.2 gain and the 1-2 mph.
Mike
The fact that the JLT provided such a substantial power increase on the engine dyno means 100% that the issue is still the tune with these cars. It is going to take a perfect tune, and a perfect set of runs to show the .15-.2 gain and the 1-2 mph.
Mike
1/8 ET and mph are same. I think that tells the story.
I wonder if dyno tuning with the hood up vs tuning using track runs is where a difference could be made.
If it is an issue of delivering air to the box, then someone needs to come up with a proper Ram-Air system like the March that was semi-popular with Fox bodies. More air needs to be fed to the intake, and I think a sealed box is needed around the air-cleaner. It should not be that hard to fabricate something that draws from the valence, or beneath it and feeds substantial amounts of air to the CAI. I think the stock box may be restrictive, but at the top of the 1/4 it is getting pressurized by ram-air and that is making up any difference in power. The CAI feels more responsive and eager all over the powerband.
Mike
Because the moderator removed the link and reposted the info, what is not seen is that kdanner ran his car as well. After the timing light issue, his car also ran 3 MPH slower with 0 changes made. This was an issue for everyone.
**Moderator** That is because the thread is on this site, and started by a user on this site. Seems redundant for our users to connect to another site when it is a response to this thread. Post the info here and don't redirect our users to another site. Thanks :thumbsup:**Moderator**
**Moderator** That is because the thread is on this site, and started by a user on this site. Seems redundant for our users to connect to another site when it is a response to this thread. Post the info here and don't redirect our users to another site. Thanks :thumbsup:**Moderator**
Tucker
Active Member
Same gains on an engine dyno as a chassis dyno.
apples to apples the powers there.
Hood up dyno testing just allows the filter the same air it would get at speed.
2011 cars have a ram air inlet in the grille that brings fresh air to the filter.
Unless you have a closed dyno cell with HVAC and speed calibrated fans you can't dyno test with the hood closed.
You can also see on the engine dyno graph posted the larger gains are as RPM increases. So power will come on at the big end and the top of the RPM.
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Tucker
Active Member
Tucker, not knocking the product, I'm just thinking out loud. I think your CAI should make the car go faster, but if track results don't back up the dyno results I start looking for reasons why.
Restricted inlet, aero around the inlet, whatever.
Restricted inlet, aero around the inlet, whatever.
kdanner
Banned
There you go with your selective reading again. Keep it up, you make yourself look more foolish every time you do it. Are you really that desperate to sell these things?
I'm going to waste more of my time and put your product on my car at the Texas Mile next week. More real world testing which you have totally failed to do before selling these things.
Like I said, the stock box is completely sealed to the inlet. There is a rubber boot that the stock box mates with. The JLT utilizes this inlet as well, but it is not an airtight seal. Also, the JLT "airdam" that surrounds the filter is not airtight. I think while the JLT is obviously able to draw more air into the larger open element air cleaner, and pass it down a larger tube...when the car is at the top of the 1/4, the stocker makes up the difference because there is a ram air effect. Just speculation on my part. Like I said before, the JLT feels more responsive to me driving around town. I even removed the sound tube because I wanted to cut down on some of the noise and focus on the feel (it is still plenty loud). I don't think you would feel a difference at the top of the 1/4 though as you are already at the point where acceleration has just about ceased.
Mike
What is up with that track in TX? INSANE MPH!
Anylizing your times compared to my last time at the track IMO both our tracks are F'd up. LOL
WBT's 1/8th to 1/4 ET and MPH gain: (accleration rate assuming no tire slipage)
4.1s / 27.18mph gain
4.088 / 26.7mph
4.093 / 24.23mph (after boxes were run over)
Kdanner's:
4.018 / 28.79
4.02 / 28.89
4.018 / 25.86 (box run over)
4.013 / 25.69 (box run over)
4.012 / 25.78 (box run over)
Last time I ran: (fastest run 11.25, slowest 11.38)
Right lane:
4.082 / 18.0mph
4.083 / 17.91
4.078 / 17.77
4.068 / 17.95
Left lane:
4.074 / 22.071
4.063 / 22.54
4.072 / 22.58
Never seen a low 11 / high 10 second car pick up 28+MPH at my local track! Last time out my buddies ZR1 picked up 23-24mph (10.9 ET), and his 8 second Turbo fox picks up 28-29mph max. At the same time seeing my low 11 second car picking up 18mph is also rediculous! Especially when switching lanes is such a huge difference in MPH yet ET is the same.
Looks to me like all 3 cars/drivers are very consistent, but niether track MPH is consistent. IMO yet again, the CAI test is invalid as the data is not consistent enough.
WBT, can you post all the JLT vs STOCK CAI timeslips?
And where are the data logs to verify Ignition timing, Cam timing, and A/F were identical?
Anylizing your times compared to my last time at the track IMO both our tracks are F'd up. LOL
WBT's 1/8th to 1/4 ET and MPH gain: (accleration rate assuming no tire slipage)
4.1s / 27.18mph gain
4.088 / 26.7mph
4.093 / 24.23mph (after boxes were run over)
Kdanner's:
4.018 / 28.79
4.02 / 28.89
4.018 / 25.86 (box run over)
4.013 / 25.69 (box run over)
4.012 / 25.78 (box run over)
Last time I ran: (fastest run 11.25, slowest 11.38)
Right lane:
4.082 / 18.0mph
4.083 / 17.91
4.078 / 17.77
4.068 / 17.95
Left lane:
4.074 / 22.071
4.063 / 22.54
4.072 / 22.58
Never seen a low 11 / high 10 second car pick up 28+MPH at my local track! Last time out my buddies ZR1 picked up 23-24mph (10.9 ET), and his 8 second Turbo fox picks up 28-29mph max. At the same time seeing my low 11 second car picking up 18mph is also rediculous! Especially when switching lanes is such a huge difference in MPH yet ET is the same.
Looks to me like all 3 cars/drivers are very consistent, but niether track MPH is consistent. IMO yet again, the CAI test is invalid as the data is not consistent enough.
WBT, can you post all the JLT vs STOCK CAI timeslips?
And where are the data logs to verify Ignition timing, Cam timing, and A/F were identical?
There you go with your selective reading again. Keep it up, you make yourself look more foolish every time you do it. Are you really that desperate to sell these things?
I'm going to waste more of my time and put your product on my car at the Texas Mile next week. More real world testing which you have totally failed to do before selling these things.
THIS test will be very interesting as you will get even more of a ram air effect from the stock box at those speeds...and the JLT should have as much fresh air as it is going to get under any circumstance.
Mike
Stock CAI probably creates a high pressure zone in the box due to it being sealed and 100+MPH air hitting the inlet 'ram air' style.
JLT and all others are not a sealed inclosure, so *if* there is any high pressure in the stock box at 1/8th to 1/4 mile speeds, the aftermarket CAI's would not benefit compared to stock.
So....who's going to put a boost gauge on their stock CAI box and go race? LOL
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