Terminator VS 2010 SS Camaro

[exdeath]

Boost is not the replacement for displacement. There is NO replacement for displacement WHEN ALL ELSE IS HELD EQUAL.

We know what happens when you have *BOTH* big displacement V8s (500 cubes) and Supra levels of boost (40+ psi).

You run 4 second 1/4 miles.

 

[85FourEyedGT]

hey man you should watch my vid in my similar thread (terminated 2010 ss)

itll show you what youll do to one with a 2.8

 

[ChiSVT]

We know what happens when you have *BOTH* big displacement V8s (500 cubes) and Supra levels of boost (40+ psi).

You run 4 second 1/4 miles.

:lol1::lol1::lol1::lol1:

 

[pho_phizzat]

you people are silly

 

[ScreaminRedZ]

OP, good kill.

If you listen closely, the camaro got the hit like 2 seconds before the cobra.

That sounded like the Camaro downshifting, not punching it early.

 

[415ZR1]

What failure did these engines experience? Broken piston lands/holes in the pistons? Rod failure?

I agree with your points. If your going to put boost to a car not originally designed for it you need to go into the motor and build it right with forged internals and the right compression ratio. "You can pay me now or you can pay me later". Just consider that part of the cost of putting boost on a car.

Spend extra money on a fuel system that has more capacity than you need. From the tank to the injectors and the the proper computer programing. All this cost money but will save you grief in the long run.

BTW, the guy's procharged LS2 lasted about 8,000 miles @ 600rwhp before the motor went on him. I guess you could consider it "conservative" it also had a alky kit with a 2 Bar GM MAP sensor. My other buddy with an LS1 trans am had a turbo kit making a bit under 600rwhp through an automatic and 9inch rear-end and his stock motor went only 3-4,000 miles after he installed the turbo kit, again "conservative" tune. These aren't cars that were tuned incorrectly or setup wrong, they made good power and lasted for sometime, they just weren't designed to handle that kind of power from the factory and eventually gave.

 

[6.0GTO]

Yes, I don't think a stock LSX motor was designed to handle 14-16psi of boost. Please do create a thread on LS1tech, I'd like to see how many, (if anyone) agrees with you.




550rwhp is what I consider to be the MAX, it's not because the LSX is inferior in anyway or because it's incapable of handling boost, it's:

1.) From my experience and what I've seen first hand
2.) Simple physics because of the materials used. The cast iron pistons aren't magically stronger because it's in the almighty LSwon.

I don't consider running 3-5K miles and a couple dyno runs "reliable". I'm talking 10-15-20-30-40K miles at said power levels. It's simply NOT designed for 600-700rwhp+ from the factory. Like I said I have many friends who had power adders with stock LSX blocks and when they pushed it, it was only a matter of time. "Not, oh look he made a couple dyno runs and a forum post about it, they can handle 650rwhp, no problem."




Yes, please teach me English and comprehension skills. You can't even spell "kindergartner".

There was a post in regards to a Camaro with a stock motor and a blower vs a Cobra. Then someone came in said, "well what if the Camaro was running 14-16psi of boost like most Cobras". I simply said that, a high compression motor with cast pistons was NOT meant to handle that kind of boost from the factory, and even if it was built 14-16psi is a considerable amount of boost, (I never said it couldn't take it, nor did I say LSXs are incapable of handling boost), but because 14-16psi on a 6.2L is capable of making 800rwhp-900rwhp+ with heads/cam/built motor, it's nothing like running 14-16psi on a Cobra, (which is not a whole lot of boost for a 4.6L MOD motor).

You and your awesome comprehension skills gathered that all on your own and went off on a tangent with exaggerated claims calling us ignorant and uneducated on the subject. :smmon:

Can I ask why it is you think the pistons are cast iron and not a cast alloy in the LS variants? I would think cast iron would be a horrible material to produce pistons out of.

As far as the race went. Totally expected, the OP should take every win he can :rolling: Sounds like they were both friends so I am guessing the Camaro driver did not make too many excuses. My car is modified and I have yet to get the best of ANY Cobra I have played with. I Have little to no idea what their mods where. Here in Denver I experience a near 18% power loss compared to sea level. Do any of you knowledgable guys know what the 4.6's are losing from altitude. Not being a turbo charger I am guessing they take a hit also. Probably not 18% though.

 

[415ZR1]

And you would be right. I don't know of any pistons made of cast iron.
Aluminum alloy (cast, forged or hypereutectic). All made from aluminum alloys.

Can I ask why it is you think the pistons are cast iron and not a cast alloy in the LS variants? I would think cast iron would be a horrible material to produce pistons out of.

 

[Fenixfire]

I am talking hp at the rear tires, not the flywheel. You don't see too many S-197 GT's pushing 500-600rwhp on 10-12 psi boost without digging a little into the engine and a more aggressive tune. Let alone that the stock bottom end will not like that kind of power for long AT ALL. The most the average person will see out of their stock S-197 GT bottom end before it blows will be right around 450-500rwhp max. Some die earlier and others get lucky and live longer. And by the way....how the hell did we get on the S-197 GT's when your original comment and comparison was made about the Terminator's?

I am well aware of how static compression affects power on both N/A and FI combo's as well as compounded boost and pressure ratios. Regardless 145rwhp is one hell of allot of power to net from 2 points of compression on an FI combo. Go ahead and try it sometime and see how much more power you make. I can assure you that a gain of 145rwhp is quite ambitious. I can completely understand the reasoning behind that portion of your post but the example given probably wasn't the best. Another common mistake that people make when comparing Ford vs GM is assuming that because GM has engines using "only" 2 valves per cyl that their heads cannot flow well. Take a look at the numbers sometime and I bet that will surprise allot of people too.

I also differ with you on your point you made a post or two back regarding how lower compression plus boost is "always better off". Again, that depends on the type of forced induction, how much boost you are going to be running, what KI the camshaft has, the cylinder head combustion chamber design, fuel used and so on. I usually tend to prefer low cr + high boost for PD blower systems I install and tune. When I do turbo systems I usually like to stick with a cr in the middle range to keep decent power down low to launch off of (streetcar..no transbrake) before the turbo spools but then still not run the engine ragged after full boost has come on either. :beer:

I know this is an old post but.......you should check the mach1registry.....There are several guys on there making close to 600 rwhp on stock internals with centri blowers. And have been holding that power for several years. Keep in mind mach 1 stock internals are just as "fragile" as s197 GTs.......other than that the manual mach 1s have the same forged crank as the 03/04 cobras.

I also found out that even to my own surprise a couple members have put dozens of bottles of 175 shot of nitrous through stock mach 1 motors with zero issues. I didnt think they could hold a 150 shot let alone a 175 shot, especially for as long as they already have and still going.......

It just goes to show that a properly tuned and prepared motor can hold quite abit of power reliably even if it has cast internals. This isnt limited to Ford OR GM motors.......

 

[ChiSVT]

Can I ask why it is you think the pistons are cast iron and not a cast alloy in the LS variants? I would think cast iron would be a horrible material to produce pistons out of.

And you would be right. I don't know of any pistons made of cast iron.
Aluminum alloy (cast, forged or hypereutectic). All made from aluminum alloys.

Yeah I don't know why I kept typing that..My fault..

As far as the race went. Totally expected, the OP should take every win he can :rolling: Sounds like they were both friends so I am guessing the Camaro driver did not make too many excuses. My car is modified and I have yet to get the best of ANY Cobra I have played with. I Have little to no idea what their mods where. Here in Denver I experience a near 18% power loss compared to sea level. Do any of you knowledgable guys know what the 4.6's are losing from altitude. Not being a turbo charger I am guessing they take a hit also. Probably not 18% though.

Supercharged cars lose pretty close to the same power as N/A cars, (if not the same percentage).

Any type of FI system needs to increase speed or have reserve capacity to maintain sea-level horsepower at altitude. The only types of FI that are able to achieve this are mechanically driven superchargers fitted with a transmission (common on aircrafts) and turbos.

A supercharger on a Cobra doesn't get larger, rev higher or turn faster. The pulley that's fitted spins at the same speed regardless of elevation. Therefore a supercharged engine doesn’t process any more air and begins losing power as it rises above sea level just as a naturally aspirated engine does..

The difference between turbo'd engines is the turbos are often capable of pushing more air to compensate for the loss in air quality, (wastegate just stays closed earlier and longer). There is still a limit, ultimately the turbo will reach it's capability and you will only see more power if you're at sea level or go with a bigger turbo.

 

[ChiSVT]

I know this is an old post but.......you should check the mach1registry.....There are several guys on there making close to 600 rwhp on stock internals with centri blowers. And have been holding that power for several years. Keep in mind mach 1 stock internals are just as "fragile" as s197 GTs.......other than that the manual mach 1s have the same forged crank as the 03/04 cobras.

I also found out that even to my own surprise a couple members have put dozens of bottles of 175 shot of nitrous through stock mach 1 motors with zero issues. I didnt think they could hold a 150 shot let alone a 175 shot, especially for as long as they already have and still going.......

It just goes to show that a properly tuned and prepared motor can hold quite abit of power reliably even if it has cast internals. This isnt limited to Ford OR GM motors.......

It's the same case though, IMO, those people just got lucky. Neither motor was designed to handle that sort of power. It's just like the people who made 1100rwhp+ on a stock Cobra longblock with the hellion system, just because those few got away with it doesn't mean that's what our motors were designed to handle. I agree that every platform has it's extreme cases; Ford, GM or whatever.

 

[Fenixfire]

Can I ask why it is you think the pistons are cast iron and not a cast alloy in the LS variants? I would think cast iron would be a horrible material to produce pistons out of.

As far as the race went. Totally expected, the OP should take every win he can :rolling: Sounds like they were both friends so I am guessing the Camaro driver did not make too many excuses. My car is modified and I have yet to get the best of ANY Cobra I have played with. I Have little to no idea what their mods where. Here in Denver I experience a near 18% power loss compared to sea level. Do any of you knowledgable guys know what the 4.6's are losing from altitude. Not being a turbo charger I am guessing they take a hit also. Probably not 18% though.

All N/A cars regardless of engine size lose the same percentage of power at altitude. Im in albuquerque where, believe it or not, we are a couple hundred feet higher than denver. My mach 1 bone stock dynoed 283 rwhp SAE CORRECTED. At my altitude tho I put down a paltry 228 rwhp. Thats a loss of almost 60 rwhp just because of the altitude.

I now have an eaton powered mach 1 with all being stock save for a catless h pipe and a 2.76 upper on the eaton(and forged internals). I made 476 rwhp SAE corrected. What I actually made here was 389 rwhp. So regardless of being supercharged I still lost, percentage wise, about the same as what I was losing N/A.

Turbo cars up here still lose some power but nowhere near as much as a supercharged or N/A car does. Im losing a good 1 to 1.1 seconds in the quarter vs what I would run at sea level. Turbo cars up here only lose about .4 seconds of what they would run at sea level. And we have cars(turbo, n/a and supercharged) that have run here and at sea level with no difference in the cars themselves other than the altitude they are at and post these differences.

 

[6.0GTO]

Ah, thanks for the info. Glad to know you guys are taking a hit too. There still may be a chance of running into one of you Cobra owners that can't drive and I'll eeeek out a MASSIVE victory.:dancenana:

I won't even go to Bandimere. Nothing like doing a 13.0 with a cam only GTO. Very disheartening along with uncorrected dyno pulls.

 

[Fenixfire]

It's the same case though, IMO, those people just got lucky. Neither motor was designed to handle that sort of power. It's just like the people who made 1100rwhp+ on a stock Cobra longblock with the hellion system, just because those few got away with it doesn't mean that's what our motors were designed to handle. I agree that every platform has it's extreme cases; Ford, GM or whatever.

The point is it can be done with a properly running motor. EVEN forged motors can fail if they are not properly running. You can take a stock bottom end motor with hyperuetic cast internals and run 10 psi. If its tuned properly and everything is working as it should it will hold it. You can take the same motor and run forged internals and run 10 psi. If its not tuned properly or something ISNT working as it should and you get detonation then it will fail.

Nothing can stand up to detonation, not even forged internals.

That being said, a forged motor will be able to take alot more punishment than a stock cast internals motor could. Cast internals can only take so much pressure EVEN IF running properly. However, if the cast internals are holding up to a certain amount of pressure for an extended period of time there is no reason to believe that person got "lucky" persay. It just means they are properly maintaining it and they found a level at which those materials have been able to hold up to. Every material is rated to a certain amount of tensile strength and pressure rating. Who are we to say that those materials cant hold up to that when we arent even 100% sure of how much pressure is being applied to said materials at a given amount of boost, fuel, etc.......

 

[Fenixfire]

Ah, thanks for the info. Glad to know you guys are taking a hit too. There still may be a chance of running into one of you Cobra owners that can't drive and I'll eeeek out a MASSIVE victory.:dancenana:

I won't even go to Bandimere. Nothing like doing a 13.0 with a cam only GTO. Very disheartening along with uncorrected dyno pulls.

Well I did race a 6.0 cammed auto gto at the track last year running a 100 shot. He had ET streets and I had 245 stock street tires(ya i know, but I dont have a rear end that can handle sticky tires yet). We raced twice. 1st run I ran a 12.75@115 mph spinning in every gear for the entire gear except for 4th(i only partly spun 4th, lol). He ran a 13.1@112 and spun some too. 2nd run I ran a [email protected] mph(damn I should bracket race, haha) still spinning just as much as the last time. This run he caught traction better and ran a 12.1@115. Keep in mind we are both running at a density altitude of around 7200 feet(on that day anyway). I had 2.0 60 foots both runs and I dont remember but I think he had 1.8 -1.9 60 foots.

I only had 4 passes that day and we were both trapping the same speed(114-115 mph) but he had better traction than me. I talked to him. Pretty cool dude. He had an MS3(?) cam, full exhaust, a tune and a 100 shot of nitrous with jets for 125 and 150 too.

 

[pho_phizzat]

i suffer the altitude problems as well, 4900 ft here in wyoming, and i can say that i have a friend whos exhaust only STI runs 13.5ish at the track while bolt on ls1 cars and 32valves only run 14.0 is or higher, a guy i know that has an 07gt with a procharger running 10 pounds only runs 13.4/ 13.2ish

that tells you something


oh and to really screw things up
i know of a chevy pickup with an 5.3 with cam and bolt ons with a 150 shot that runs mid 12s

how crazy it is

 

[Fenixfire]

i suffer the altitude problems as well, 4900 ft here in wyoming, and i can say that i have a friend whos exhaust only STI runs 13.5ish at the track while bolt on ls1 cars and 32valves only run 14.0 is or higher, a guy i know that has an 07gt with a procharger running 10 pounds only runs 13.4/ 13.2ish

that tells you something


oh and to really screw things up
i know of a chevy pickup with an 5.3 with cam and bolt ons with a 150 shot that runs mid 12s

how crazy it is

Yep........I ran 14.11 bone stock at a density altitude of 7200 ft. Track elevation is 5313 ft above sea level. Sucks

With a mid pipe, catback and drag radials I ran 13.52 at the same track with a DA that day of about the same, roughly 7100 ft. Never seems to go below 7000, freakin lame.

 

[Snake Pliskin]

If both cars were dropped from an airplane the camaro would probably have 10-15 car lenths on you when it hit the ground !:banana::beer:

 

[T1000MaCh1]

If both cars were dropped from an airplane the camaro would probably have 10-15 car lenths on you when it hit the ground !:banana::beer:

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

 

[FMX05]

If both cars were dropped from an airplane the camaro would probably have 10-15 car lenths on you when it hit the ground !:banana::beer:

Weight does not effect the speed of a falling object.