Terminator VS 2010 SS Camaro

[mebetter]

You could bring up what ifs all day, but the fact is they aren't equal..You can't run 14psi as easy as you can run 14psi in a Cobra, period.

Further more, even if you were able to run that much boost you might be reaching the blower's maximum capability. Once again BOOST is only a measure of restriction, I don't know how else to make you understand it.. A bigger, high compression motor can push the blower twice as hard as a smaller lower compression motor at the same boost level.

As an example, there is a guy on here with a ported eaton, but he has heads/cams and a stroked/built 5.0L. After the heads/cams he was running a 3.1lb upper with a 8lb lower and only making 11psi. If he still had the stock motor he would easily be running 19-20psi+, but he's only making 11psi with the blower being spun to it's absolute limit. It's a perfect example of freeing restriction which then shows a lower boost # on the gauge. Even though it's only showing 11psi he's still at the absolute capability of the blower the same as if it were a stock Cobra was running 17psi+

If I race a Supra running 35psi and I'm making as much power running 20psi in my Cobra, I would be a ridiculous ricer to say "well logically I'll be making more at 35psi". :lol: :bored: For one I don't if my Cobra could handle that boost, and two running "similar FI applications" I could be pushing the application well beyond it's capability REGARDLESS of what number shows up on the boost gauge..

You're too obsessed with boost numbers, read my post above and try to understand how it works. As for bolt-on Cobras making 450rwhp, the blower is FACTORY, (meaning it's designed to pass inspection/smog, be reliable, efficient, etc). "Ifffff I did this and installed this aftermarket blower, and had these heads with this cam and ran this much boost and did this I could make more power." That's all Honda talk right there.

Dude it's not me you should be preaching to about boost and efficiency. I own two grand nationals I know plenty about changes in boost levels when changing things such as a cai, weather, cam, heads, and in some cases headers. You need to actually read the entire thread before jumping in the middle of a conversation and trying to act like you know what all is going on.

I will break it down for you my original comment was "Both lsx motors and modular motors have their pluses and minuses," this is a fact. My next comment was, "When both lsx motors and modular motors are using forced induction then there is no replacement for displacement." And you just proved my point for me. An example is since the ls motor is more efficient 1 lb of boost for a ls motor might increase hp by 25, compared to 1 lb of boost on a modular motor may increase hp by 10 on average. So what does this mean? It means that lb for lb and mod for mod, the more efficient motor that has things such as better flowing heads, cam, and cubic inches is going to respond more favorably than the less efficient motor that has less cubic inches, less efficient heads, cam, and so forth, this is an indisputable fact. There is no if this and that. My car is set up n/a I don't need to speculate what my set up is capable of I already know. I also know what the 03-04 cobra motors are capable of, and could care less if it's set up with a blower or came factory with turbo. The point is my car is making as much all motor as the 03-04 cobra is with a blower; and my car still passes smog inspection and gets 25+ mpg. Now a GT 500 can make 550+ rwhp with just a pully swap, that's something to brag about being pullied and only making 450 rwhp is no big deal in my opinion. If that hurts your feelings well it is what it is.

 

[rocket5979]

I'm sorry call me a GM nuthugger or whatever you want but I'm just not wowed when a car running between 8-14 psi makes 420-480 rwhp especially because my ls2 does that all motor. I guess my main point is that if the ls3 was cammed he would have probably pulled the cobra, I believe this because the cobra seemed to struggle with the camaro in the video and it was stock. But this is probably going to be an endless debate I've said my peace, we'll just agree to disagree :beer:

Come on let's not get into the whole argument about who thinks what is better. Of course the Terminator is going to make less hp on a given boost level. It has 1.4 liters less displacement than your 6.0 in your GTO or the 6.0 in my G8. I also don't think the Cobra struggled with the Camaro either but that is just my opinion and also having allot of experience knowing what stock and modded Terminators can do.

I don't know about you but the only reason I posted on here was to correct a few inaccuracies posted about the LSx engines. Not to try to make any claims about one engine being better than the other because of how much power it can make boosted or n/a. When people start saying that stuff all sense usually goes out the window. :sleeping:

 

[rocket5979]

You could bring up what ifs all day, but the fact is they aren't equal..You can't run 14psi as easy as you can run 14psi in a Cobra, period.

Further more, even if you were able to run that much boost you might be reaching the blower's maximum capability. Once again BOOST is only a measure of restriction, I don't know how else to make you understand it.. A bigger, high compression motor can push the blower twice as hard as a smaller lower compression motor at the same boost level.

As an example, there is a guy on here with a ported eaton, but he has heads/cams and a stroked/built 5.0L. After the heads/cams he was running a 3.1lb upper with a 8lb lower and only making 11psi. If he still had the stock motor he would easily be running 19-20psi+, but he's only making 11psi with the blower being spun to it's absolute limit. It's a perfect example of freeing restriction which then shows a lower boost # on the gauge. Even though it's only showing 11psi he's still at the absolute capability of the blower the same as if it were a stock Cobra was running 17psi+

I totally agree with the above statements.

You can run 14 psi boost much more easily in a Terminator than in an LSx engine because the Terminator engine is built to handle it more readily. I don't believe anyone has debated that. And if they did then they need a serious reality check.

The bigger ci engine will indeed be taxing the blower much more, and thus spinning it much higher at a given boost pressure due to the bigger engine being able to ingest more cfm. These are all points that I would hope everyone understands pretty clearly in here.

One thing that you didn't mention was that while the bigger ci engine is ingesting more air and taxing the blower more it is also making more power too as I know you are already aware of. And you are also seeing lower intake air temps because your making that power at a lower boost level which of course means that the air didn't need to be compressed as much. Again, I am not making ANY claim as to the bigger engine being better than the smaller ci engine or vice versa but from a pure technical standpoint being bigger and running less boost does have it's advantages. One disadvantage that the LSx engines have is that they aren't built to withstand as much power straight from the factory as the Terminator, GT500, GT engines are even though they take more boost and power than most people give them credit for in stock form. :rolling:

 

[ChiSVT]

Dude it's not me you should be preaching to about boost and efficiency. I own two grand nationals I know plenty about changes in boost levels when changing things such as a cai, weather, cam, heads, and in some cases headers. You need to actually read the entire thread before jumping in the middle of a conversation and trying to act like you know what all is going on.

Sorry for pointing out the error in your logic. :bored: I'm not preaching anything, I'm simply explaining why 14-16psi in a Cobra is not the same as 14-16psi in a much bigger LSX motor.

I will break it down for you my original comment was "Both lsx motors and modular motors have their pluses and minuses," this is a fact. My next comment was, "When both lsx motors and modular motors are using forced induction then there is no replacement for displacement." And you just proved my point for me. An example is since the ls motor is more efficient 1 lb of boost for a ls motor might increase hp by 25, compared to 1 lb of boost on a modular motor may increase hp by 10 on average. So what does this mean? It means that lb for lb and mod for mod, the more efficient motor that has things such as better flowing heads, cam, and cubic inches is going to respond more favorably than the less efficient motor that has less cubic inches, less efficient heads, cam, and so forth, this is an indisputable fact.

Obviously a higher displacement motor will make more power per pound of boost. This is why smaller displacement motors have to run more "boost" to push as much air. That's why it's ridiculous when discussing a race against a nearly stock Cobra running 14-16psi and then saying "well what if the Camaro was running 14-16psi".

They are two completely different motors that flow completely different at given boost levels. My whole point was that your argument about running the same boost with the same power adder is ridiculous; I'm not trying to have a "which engine is superior" debate with you, because that's all you're trying to achieve by comparing power outputs at specific boost levels..

There is no if this and that. My car is set up n/a I don't need to speculate what my set up is capable of I already know. I also know what the 03-04 cobra motors are capable of, and could care less if it's set up with a blower or came factory with turbo. The point is my car is making as much all motor as the 03-04 cobra is with a blower; and my car still passes smog inspection and gets 25+ mpg.

Sigh..:bored: Read my post below.

Now a GT 500 can make 550+ rwhp with just a pully swap, that's something to brag about being pullied and only making 450 rwhp is no big deal in my opinion. If that hurts your feelings well it is what it is.

It doesn't hurt my feelings, the GT500 is a newer platform with a better motor and a more efficient blower. The GTO didn't come factory blown so everything you're assuming your car would make if it were setup exactly like a factory Cobra is speculation. Geez just repeating your logic I feel like a ricer. :lol:

 

[ChiSVT]

One thing that you didn't mention was that while the bigger ci engine is ingesting more air and taxing the blower more it is also making more power too as I know you are already aware of. And you are also seeing lower intake air temps because your making that power at a lower boost level which of course means that the air didn't need to be compressed as much. Again, I am not making ANY claim as to the bigger engine being better than the smaller ci engine or vice versa but from a pure technical standpoint being bigger and running less boost does have it's advantages.

I agree, the biggest advantage is being able to make a lot more power on pump gas. However, once you get into maximum capabilities both motors are very close even though they excel in different aspects.

 

[rocket5979]

550rwhp is what I consider to be the MAX, it's not because the LSX is inferior in anyway or because it's incapable of handling boost, it's:

1.) From my experience and what I've seen first hand
2.) Simple physics because of the materials used. The cast iron pistons aren't magically stronger because it's in the almighty LSwon.

I don't consider running 3-5K miles and a couple dyno runs "reliable". I'm talking 10-15-20-30-40K miles at said power levels. It's simply NOT designed for 600-700rwhp+ from the factory. Like I said I have many friends who had power adders with stock LSX blocks and when they pushed it, it was only a matter of time. "Not, oh look he made a couple dyno runs and a forum post about it, they can handle 650rwhp, no problem."

Take a look around and see what kind of boost and resulting power stock LS2's, LS3's, L76's and so on are taking. Your personal knowledge comes from your experience with an LS1. I am here to tell you that not all LSx engines are created equal. There are some sizable differences between how much power certain LSx engines can take, and on what amount of boost in stock form.

Do you understand that there is more that comes into play than just materials used for connecting rods and pistons right? Usually internal components aren't broken from sheer power. Usually it is detonation and/or sheer rpm (resulting in parts breakage or lack of lubrication) that kills them more often. You also have to factor in the amount of force applied to a given area. In this case the bore size of the LSx is bigger than that of the 4.6 modular. This means that at a given horsepower there will be less force being applied per square centimeter of space on that piston than on the smaller bore engine. The same applies to the connecting rods which aren't anything special but are physically a little bigger. This again means more material to take the "load" which somewhat offsets the strength disadvantage of the material it is manufactured out of. Think of this as the same principle displayed when magicians do the laying on a bed of nails trick. Lay on one nail and it will skewer your ass. Lay on 50 and they will be less apt to. Now this extra innate strength sure as hell doesn't mean that the LSx is some sort of monster that can take tons of power and gobs of boost without consequence. But I do think people in here underestimate its ability to handle boost.

Yes, please teach me English and comprehension skills. You can't even spell "kindergartner".

You do realize that there are two officially accepted variants of that word, right? :nonono:

There was a post in regards to a Camaro with a stock motor and a blower vs a Cobra. Then someone came in said, "well what if the Camaro was running 14-16psi of boost like most Cobras".

I agree that the "what if" statements made by other members on here were pointless. You can what if things all day and still get nowhere.

I simply said that, a high compression motor with cast pistons was NOT meant to handle that kind of boost from the factory, and even if it was built 14-16psi is a considerable amount of boost, (I never said it couldn't take it, nor did I say LSXs are incapable of handling boost),

You know you weren't the only person posting comments about the LSx's not being able to take boost in stock form. :idea: I get the distinct impression that we mostly see eye to eye on most of this stuff when it comes to a technical understanding of how all this forced induction and flow stuff works. I do suggest that some people, maybe including yourself, take another closer look at what the newer LSx engines are handling in stock and near stock form. :beer:

 

[SVTBeatdown13]

Wholly christ! The damn Camaro lost get the hell over it. The damn supercharger vs. N/A argument is REALLY old. You want a power adder? Then go get one, but then when the Cobra comes back with a big Kenne Bell or Whipple and beats the Camaro again, then the argument changes to how much bigger the damn blower is. It's the street people. No rules, it's RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG! You want to know another secret? There will ALWAYS be someone faster! Stop whining that the Cobra has a supercharger.

I also want to make myself clear that i am NOT hanging on the nuts of Ford here. I love anything fast. Vettes, Vipers, Cobras, Lambos, Evos, anything. I would have taken the side of the Camaro if he won and everyone was bitching that it was a 6.2 vs 4.6. So shut up, watch the damn video, if it's not the outcome you like, too damn bad. Run what ya brung as I said. If you didn't bring enough then you know what you gotta do...

 

[rocket5979]

I agree, the biggest advantage is being able to make a lot more power on pump gas. However, once you get into maximum capabilities both motors are very close even though they excel in different aspects.

Agreed. :beer: I am one of those "fence sitters" because I own, have built, tuned, and yadda, yadda, yadda both so I feel totally fine saying that both the Ford Modular and the GM LSx engines are completely badass in their own rights. Both engine platforms have much more capability than most are even able to afford to take advantage of.

 

[ChiSVT]

Take a look around and see what kind of boost and resulting power stock LS2's, LS3's, L76's and so on are taking. Your personal knowledge comes from your experience with an LS1. I am here to tell you that not all LSx engines are created equal. There are some sizable differences between how much power certain LSx engines can take, and on what amount of boost in stock form.

Not just LS1s, LS2s as well, (a buddy of mine had a procharged LS2 Vette). All of them had pushed the limits and got away with it for awhile, but they all eventually had motor failures.

Do you understand that there is more that comes into play than just materials used for connecting rods and pistons right? Usually internal components aren't broken from sheer power. Usually it is detonation and/or sheer rpm (resulting in parts breakage or lack of lubrication) that kills them more often. You also have to factor in the amount of force applied to a given area. In this case the bore size of the LSx is bigger than that of the 4.6 modular. This means that at a given horsepower there will be less force being applied per square centimeter of space on that piston than on the smaller bore engine. The same applies to the connecting rods which aren't anything special but are physically a little bigger. This again means more material to take the "load".

You are right in a sense, mainly because you can make more power at less boost, less boost = less stress. Also because most failures are due to some form of detonation. However, once you start turning up the boost, especially without low compression and forged internals your margin for error decreases dramatically. Small variances in heat, weather, humidity, quality of fuel and elevation can cause your tune to go off and increase your knock count. When you have a higher compression motor with cast pistons even just a few knock counts, (which would otherwise be acceptable in a forged application) can cause failure. You can get away with it for awhile if you're lucky, but simply put, the motor was not designed to be pushed to those levels. At higher HP levels it's very difficult to keep the tune "conservative" with the stock compression.

I agree that the "what if" statements made by other members on here were pointless. You can what if things all day and still get nowhere.

Well maybe you should go back and re-read my posts, nowhere did I say LSXs couldn't handle boost. You assumed that when I said running 14-16psi is a considerable amount of boost compared to running 14-16psi in a Cobra.

You know you weren't the only person posting comments about the LSx's not being able to take boost in stock form. :idea:

I know but you quoted my post..

 

[T1000MaCh1]

The camaro lost in the video. The cobra obviously had traction problems. That's what allowed the slower camaro to be next to it for the first 2 gears. Which is sad because the cobra is fighting for traction and the camaro is at full traction and they're next to each other. Once the cobra gripped it spanked the fat camaro. Who cares if the camaro makes as much hp with out a blower. It's fat ass still couldn't hang so it doesn't matter. Same for the gt500. It makes 500 rwhp but don't forget power to weight ratio. A lighter termi with less power will keep up or pull it. And grand nationals suck BTW. :burn:

 

[rocket5979]

You are right in a sense, mainly because you can make more power at less boost, less boost = less stress. Also because most failures are due to some form of detonation. However, once you start turning up the boost, especially without low compression and forged internals your margin for error decreases dramatically. Small variances in heat, weather, humidity, quality of fuel and elevation can cause your tune to go off and increase your knock count. When you have a higher compression motor with cast pistons even just a few knock counts, (which would otherwise be acceptable in a forged application) can cause failure. You can get away with it for awhile if you're lucky, but simply put, the motor was not designed to be pushed to those levels. At higher HP levels it's very difficult to keep the tune "conservative" with the stock compression.

Margin for error always decreases as you turn up the boost. That is a given. Heat, weather, actual altitude, and humidity can be accounted for with a proper tune since all of those affect the WOT AFR's due to differing airmass in a given volume. Those are the basic variable items that comprise density altitude. If you have properly calibrated your MAF Transfer function and Load w/ failed MAF (Ford tuning terminology not GM) as well as a few other items then having issues due to differing environmental conditions can be taken care of. Bad fuel can adversely affect any engine, not just a blown LSx. This is also why you have to remain selective in where you get your fuel from. Also running methanol injection to keep things safe doesn't hurt either.

Just curious but how many blown LSx cars have you tuned yourself? Not a buddy tuned or a friend of a friend, but you yourself? Just wondering because even at higher horsepower levels there still is such a thing as a "conservative" tune even on a blown LSx car.

 

[ChiSVT]

Margin for error always decreases as you turn up the boost.

I agree, but when just a couple knock counts can completely destroy a motor that margin is A LOT smaller.

That is a given. Heat, weather, actual altitude, and humidity can be accounted for with a proper tune since all of those affect the WOT AFR's due to differing airmass in a given volume. Those are the basic variable items that comprise density altitude. If you have properly calibrated your MAF Transfer function and Load w/ failed MAF (Ford tuning terminology not GM) as well as a few other items then having issues due to differing environmental conditions can be taken care of. Bad fuel can adversely affect any engine, not just a blown LSx. This is also why you have to remain selective in where you get your fuel from. Also running methanol injection to keep things safe doesn't hurt either.

I agree with all those things, and that it can adversely effect any engine. However, again, the point being the margin for error is a lot less. While a tiny variance might not effect a forged motor, it could totally destroy a motor not designed to handle so much power. This is why manufactures used forged internals in factory cars with power adders, even with a super conservative tune from the factory .

Just curious but how many blown LSx cars have you tuned yourself? Not a buddy tuned or a friend of a friend, but you yourself? Just wondering because even at higher horsepower levels there still is such a thing as a "conservative" tune even on a blown LSx car.

I'm not a tuner, my WS6 which was a cam/nitrous car and most the LSX cars around here were tuned by Speed INC. How do you define conservative, not a lot of timing, running the car rich, pure race gas? IMO, when you turn up the boost on a stock motor with stock compression it's hard to call any tune conservative, especially when you have to run race gas or meth to avoid detonation.

BTW, the guy's procharged LS2 lasted about 8,000 miles @ 600rwhp before the motor went on him. I guess you could consider it "conservative" it also had a alky kit with a 2 Bar GM MAP sensor. My other buddy with an LS1 trans am had a turbo kit making a bit under 600rwhp through an automatic and 9inch rear-end and his stock motor went only 3-4,000 miles after he installed the turbo kit, again "conservative" tune. These aren't cars that were tuned incorrectly or setup wrong, they made good power and lasted for sometime, they just weren't designed to handle that kind of power from the factory and eventually gave.

 

[kokanecowboy22]

more boost is the replacement for displacement

I agree.
Displacement is like having a big d*ck and not knowing how to use it.

 

[kokanecowboy22]

:rollseyes


Holy shit one of us actually used full sentences and proper English to get a point across on a forum. In the future I will try to dumb it down for "retarded" noobs like you next time. oke:

Just saying, I really dont wanna sit here and listen to you talk about camaros and g8's all day if I needed a lecture I'd probably seek it elsewhere. Like a Gm forum maybe? Thats usualy where you go to get all the latest Gm news right? Douchebag

 

[S8ER01Z]

What is really sad is your fellow Ford owners on here don't have your back. You are making yourself look really bad right now. Keep up the good work?

 

[FortLewisCobra]

What is really sad is your fellow Ford owners on here don't have your back. You are making yourself look really bad right now. Keep up the good work?

Most ford guys probably agree on forged 4.6 > LS3, but we still respect the LS1,2,3, etc and don't see the point in making an ass out of ourselves.

 

[SLPLSWON]

This GM guy is just passing through

Continue on.....

 

[S8ER01Z]

Most ford guys probably agree on forged 4.6 > LS3, but we still respect the LS1,2,3, etc and don't see the point in making an ass out of ourselves.

Well..to be honest any intellegent person regardless of what they have owned or do own should be able to look at the numbers and see the strengths and weaknesses of both sides. I typically enjoy the crowd that is on here for exactly that... some people from both camps lately have been pissing in the drinking water. :nonono:

 

[DayzofBliss00]

Nice Kill!!!

 

[T1000MaCh1]

Just saying, I really dont wanna sit here and listen to you talk about camaros and g8's all day if I needed a lecture I'd probably seek it elsewhere. Like a Gm forum maybe? Thats usualy where you go to get all the latest Gm news right? Douchebag

Let me take a dump in the drinking water.
+1