Terminator piston damage (pic)

[Jerryk]

my car got it at 14,500... but that was after a 160mph speedo peg for 25 seconds :shrug:

Ford tuned these cars to run at <=10.5:1 AFR, pig rich. All of us (including me) get our cars tuned to through chips/flash to run ~ 11.8:1 AFR. Anyone ever wonder why Ford left it so rich? I think its because of pictures we see like at the top of this thread and for situations like I quoted above: extreme heat. The pistons *MAY* be able to hold up to those extreme temps, but the coating certainly can not. When I redo my shortblock w/ top quality forged CP pistons I'm going to install an EGT (exhaust gas temp) gauge and make sure to keep it below 1300 degrees (hopefully). Extra fuel (10.5:1 vs. 11.8:1) kills some power but also serves to cool the combustion chamber. Anyone ever burn a piston on an unchipped car doing a sustained top gear pull? Lean conditions and hard/long pulls under full load cause the highest exhaust gas temps.

 

[jiggy988]

what tick are you talking about?....... i've got a tick on my 04 but it sounds like its comming from the cat. its got 3k on it

 

[03 Zinc Rocket]

I have 31K on my car and it just starting ticking. It ticks when I take off from a stop and the engine hits about 2500rpm's under a load. It also puffs out a black cloud of smoke when I first start it and sometimes when I step into it. It has been to the dealer a couple times and they say there's nothing wrong with it. My car is bone stock and I've never had it to the track. I do get into it on the street though.

 

[mj8]

Moral of the story, if you want to keep your 03-04 safe. Pass on the High Speed Passes!

 

[metaman]

That is what I thought, but the shop working on my engine showed me the stock bearings, and they looked brand new still. In fact two shops said I should re-use them (CP Motorsports and HBR engineering). They are apparently some good bearings. They were polished almost to a mirror finish with absolutely no scoring on either the bearings, or the crank journals.

I pretty much spared no expense on the rebuild, but it would have been a waste to buy new bearings when mine were still in great shape IMO.

So the new pistons weigh exactly the same amount as the stock ones? If they did not, wouldn't the balence weights on the crank need to be tweeked?

 

[cobra93teal]

sounds like everyone has the same story.... so does ford

 

[mnypit]

So the new pistons weigh exactly the same amount as the stock ones? If they did not, wouldn't the balence weights on the crank need to be tweeked?

Generally speaking, the rotating assembly should be balanced when any of the rotating parts are changed out (pistons, rods). Most engine machine shops can/will do this.

 

[JSHTROD]

sounds like everyone has the same story.... so does ford

THE PROBLEM IS HEAT!!!!

With a liquid cooling system, it has it's limits. This is why on road racing cars they don't use liquid intercooling. They use air-to-air.

 

[mnypit]

THE PROBLEM IS HEAT!!!!

With a liquid cooling system, it has it's limits. This is why on road racing cars they don't use liquid intercooling. They use air-to-air.

I have only been "road racing" for 17 years, and I am gonna take a stab at this one, but road racers use air-air whenever possible for two reasons, weight and simplicity.

Obviously an air-air system can be much lighter.
An air-air system is a passive system - in other words, no electrical pumps to fail, no fuses to blow, no hoses to leak.

On a side note, I think liquid cooling is by far much more efficient than air cooling. Any thermal engineers wanna confirm or deny this for us?

 

[LCCOBRA]

I'm shocked to see these kind of pics ! My face >>>> :uh oh: . And I wonder will this happen to all of us with these motors and we have to go and replace our pistons for new ones. That will cost lot's of time and $$$. But if it's something that has to be down then so be. And I wonder why ford won't cover it under warrantee. Another is wouldn’t having an bigger radiator, ported charger, and larger he help with things like this. Also is the apten mod still worth doing? I here mixed things about their kit that they offer and how it works. My car has 8300 miles and I have yet to take it over 150 mph. SO you’re saying if we stay out of the 160mph then were fine? More in plz!

 

[Black2003Cobra]

cobra93teal and SmokenGRA03. Can you guys provide the following info and the date your engine failed? Thanks!

Supercharger or turbo make (Eaton, KB, Whipple, etc.)
Pulley sizes: upper (in) and lower (lbs)
Boost psi
RWHP/TQ and dyno type (Dynojet, Mustang, etc.)
A/F at peak power
Octane of gas
Spark plugs (make, type and gap)
Total timing
Heat exchanger – stock or aftermarket
Miles at time of engine failure
Miles since modded
Induction system mods: CAI, TB, MAF (and size)
Fuel system mods: fuel pumps, BAP, fuel rails, injector size
Exhaust mods: Headers, aftermarket X- or H-pipe, CB.
Actual damage, (e.g., heat damage to pistons #x,y,z, mechanical damage, etc.)
Suspected cause, (e.g., clogged injector, bad tune, vacuum leak, etc.)

 

[Quadcammer]

That is what I thought, but the shop working on my engine showed me the stock bearings, and they looked brand new still. In fact two shops said I should re-use them (CP Motorsports and HBR engineering). They are apparently some good bearings. They were polished almost to a mirror finish with absolutely no scoring on either the bearings, or the crank journals.

I pretty much spared no expense on the rebuild, but it would have been a waste to buy new bearings when mine were still in great shape IMO.

150 bux for a set of bearings that are designed for high rpm race situations is always worth it, imho.

 

[Black2003Cobra]

P.S. The AFR on my car in stock trim was virtually a straight line from 13.5:1 at 4,000 rpm down to about 11.8:1 at 6,000. And no offense, but I don't see how adding extra fuel does much at all to cool the intake charge. I know that is a popular belief, but if you figure it out from the latent heat of vaporization (Lv) of the fuel and the specific heat of air (Cv), it only works out to be a couple or so degrees, depending on how much you change the AFR. It can be shown that the temp change would go as:

DeltaT = (Lv/Cv)(1/AFR2 - 1/AFR1)

I've seen numbers for Lv ranging from 300-340 kJ/kg and Cv for air is roughly 1 kJ/(kg*oC). So for example, lets say you go from 11.8:1 down to 10:1. The intake charge would only be cooled by 5.2 degrees (using Lv = 340 kJ/kg). Considering that IAT2 temps change by more than that with weather conditions, driving speed, etc., I just don't see how that can make a difference. There's something else going on there when adding the extra fuel to reduce detonation.

 

[jasonc32amg]

:nonono: I'll get rid of it before I rebuild anything.... FUGG THAT!

That's what I did...I miss it, but I didn't feel like the hassle of a rebiuld. I think it's BS that Ford isn't doing the cooling mod as a recall.
:smmon:

 

[SmokenGRA03]

Supercharger: Eaton
Pulley sizes: upper 2.8
Boost psi: 13
RWHP/TQ and dyno type: Dynojet 466whp 498wtq
A/F at peak power: 11:0 and below....
Octane of gas: 93
Spark plugs: NGK TR6 .40 gap
Total timing: 19
Heat exchanger – stock
Miles at time of engine failure: 10k
Miles since modded: Now with NEW pistons 8k before 4k
Induction system mods: CAI DensCharger
Fuel system mods: STOCK
Exhaust mods: KooK Headers, O/R Custom X Flow Master CB.
Actual damage: Piston #3 & #7 looked like the pic in this post...But All had some wear
Suspected cause: What the Shop that did my BLOCK told me that it was HEAT. Also found that there was NO or very little clearence in some of the pistons parts (Piston pin NO clearence and ROD bults had no clearence)...he also told be that who ever biult the engine is the one to blame...I have it written down some where when I was fighting it and Ford said pound some sand....

Right after the 160+ run came down to a stop light thats when the engine begain to "TICK" took to work cause it sounded like a header gasket leak. Could not tell where the "TICK" noise was comming from so I drove it to the dealer. By the time I got to the dealer it started to smoke blue smoke and smelled like radiator fluid.. The tech, you going to love this one, told me that the "TICKING is do to the HIGH octane I was using" I told him "OH Come On. You have to be kidding me right. This car calls for high octane and what is the blue smoke?"
Long story and FIGHT with not one but 2 dealers to try to fix car and came out with an $8K bill and a voided warranty!

(If you want to full story PM me)

 

[I-CAN-STANG]

That's what I did...I miss it, but I didn't feel like the hassle of a rebiuld. I think it's BS that Ford isn't doing the cooling mod as a recall.
:smmon:

They should be doing it as a recall instead of replacing motors! :smmon:

 

[Black2003Cobra]

Thanks SmokenGRY! Yes, please tell me the full story via PM. Oh, and let me know the date when your engine failed, too, please.

 

[Grey03Cobra]

So the new pistons weigh exactly the same amount as the stock ones? If they did not, wouldn't the balence weights on the crank need to be tweeked?

Everything was balanced at the machine shop. They even balanced my new flywheel with the rotating assembly. All I can say is the car runs smooth as silk.

 

[jimh]

P.S. The AFR on my car in stock trim was virtually a straight line from 13.5:1 at 4,000 rpm down to about 11.8:1 at 6,000. And no offense, but I don't see how adding extra fuel does much at all to cool the intake charge. I know that is a popular belief, but if you figure it out from the latent heat of vaporization (Lv) of the fuel and the specific heat of air (Cv), it only works out to be a couple or so degrees, depending on how much you change the AFR. It can be shown that the temp change would go as:

DeltaT = (Lv/Cv)(1/AFR2 - 1/AFR1)

I've seen numbers for Lv ranging from 300-340 kJ/kg and Cv for air is roughly 1 kJ/(kg*oC). So for example, lets say you go from 11.8:1 down to 10:1. The intake charge would only be cooled by 5.2 degrees (using Lv = 340 kJ/kg). Considering that IAT2 temps change by more than that with weather conditions, driving speed, etc., I just don't see how that can make a difference. There's something else going on there when adding the extra fuel to reduce detonation.

You're not taking into account cylinder perssure and the extra heat generated by a lean burn condition. Just like a torch, when you add more oxygen (lean it out) it gets hotter. Adding the extra fuel causes a rich burn and cylinder pressures are not quite as high. If they were you wouldn't lose any HP.

I'm not an engineer so fire away if I'm wrong.
jim

 

[Black2003Cobra]

You're not taking into account cylinder perssure and the extra heat generated by a lean burn condition. Just like a torch, when you add more oxygen (lean it out) it gets hotter. Adding the extra fuel causes a rich burn and cylinder pressures are not quite as high. If they were you wouldn't lose any HP.

I'm not an engineer so fire away if I'm wrong.
jim

Hi Jim – I am an engineer, but so what. I’m afraid thermo chemistry isn’t my forte. That’s why I was looking for input. For what it’s worth, I don’t refute the fact that leaning out the mixture increases power and torque. And clearly, that means that the cylinder pressures must be higher since power and torque are directly proportional to the MEP. And of course, the higher MEP is the result of higher combustion temperatures. (After all, as you and I both know, those are the basics of how an IC engine works.) If you’re going to make more power and torque on a given engine (with a given mechanical efficiency, blah blah blah), you absolutely must increase combustion temps (and/or comb efficiency) and cylinder pressure. That’s a given.

However, that’s not what my comments were directed at. I was addressing the thought that adding extra fuel cools the intake charge significantly. Yes, it does cool it some, but not significantly IMO. I wasn’t addressing any resulting changes in combustion temperatures. Richening the mixture is doing something else to reduce the risk of detonation, IMO. Well…hopefully you see what I was initially getting at. But thanks for the feedback.

Grey03Cobra – sorry for mucking up your thread. (Even though it may be relevant, this should really be discussed in a separate thread.)