Polygraph..

[Outlaw99]

bottom line, the dept. knows everyone has done things...doesnt matter what, its an integrity issue....will you be honest about it? if you smoked dope...answer truthfuly, if you stole something, answer truthfuly, if you fantasized about doing your sister....answer un truthfuly, j/k on that one.

 

[RDJ]

Again, I'm not an expert on polygraphs. your explanation on the matter makes perfect sense to me. I'm just using 2 examples of friends who have tried to get on the department but for some reason or another failed the polygraph. These are life long friends. I grew up with these guys. I know they were not involved in any criminal activity or anything that would dismiss them as candidates.

so you are ASSUMING the polygraph detected lies where there were none. but people keep secrets even from their best friends and "people they grew up with". everyone has secrets the question is whether or not those secrets are severe enough to keep you from getting past the poly or not.

I worked for the federal government for almost 25 years, and I will tell you that I was never worried about getting caught in a lie, but I was worried about being "caught in the truth". Seeing as how I had to take a poly every 3-5 years and hated them. they are demeaning and invasive and by the time I finally got out of the business I swore I would never take another one.

As for our polygraph examiners compitence goes, I would have to say it's pretty high. I work with the Miami-Dade Police Department (fromerley known as Metro-Dade Police) we are the largest law enforcement acgency in Florida with close to 5000 sworn officers. Last time I remebered we had 5 polygraph examiners working for our department. I think on rare occassions it is subed out to polygraph companies for civilian hire. :shrug:

As you said you are not an expert by any means. Neither am I but I do have a fair amount of experience with them. Your making the assumption that your operators competence is pretty high based on the number of polygraphs given over the course of a year is off the mark. I am not saying they are all incompetent but IF your assumption that your two friends have nothing in their backgrounds to cause them to fail and there are druggies that have passed I would say that at least one or two of them are incompetent. The only way to know for sure would be to see if the same guy poly'd all of your "known" cases of polygraph technical failure.

Note: My department does a priliminary background in the first part of the hiring process just to see if you qualify. The full background investigation is done after you pass the poly and the psyc. Due to the high number of applicants not passing the psyc and or the poly it is my departments policy to conduct the full background after this process to ensure that man power is not wasted. Can you imagine if the psyc and poly were done at the end of the hiring process. think of all the man hours spent on background investigations only to have a candidate fail the psyc or the poly. My department has 4000-5000 applicants a year. I think this is the best way to save tax payers dollars.

I would wager that this is not limited to your department.


I took a look at the article you posted in indeed it is a pretty good article at least the initial page. I thought Adam was joking about the "pucker" pad LOL! They weren't using that when I had my polygraphs.

I went to the link where the guy offers to "teach" you how to pass a polygraph. Frankly I think he is full of crap in spite of having the "endorsement" of major news organizations and "thousands" of testimonials. I think the vast majority of those that passed and wrote a "testimonial" would have passed anyway. Some of the stories smack of either a totally screwed up process or the writer is flat out lying. don't know which. And I haven't seen any of the News shows that "proved" him right. So all I can go with is my gut which says he is full of shit. I could be wrong however. He obviously makes a living at it but that does not make him competent or "proven".

 

[FordSVTFan]

Again, I'm not an expert on polygraphs. your explanation on the matter makes perfect sense to me. I'm just using 2 examples of friends who have tried to get on the department but for some reason or another failed the polygraph. These are life long friends. I grew up with these guys. I know they were not involved in any criminal activity or anything that would dismiss them as candidates. As for our polygraph examiners compitence goes, I would have to say it's pretty high. I work with the Miami-Dade Police Department (fromerley known as Metro-Dade Police) we are the largest law enforcement acgency in Florida with close to 5000 sworn officers. Last time I remebered we had 5 polygraph examiners working for our department. I think on rare occassions it is subed out to polygraph companies for civilian hire. :shrug:

Note: My department does a priliminary background in the first part of the hiring process just to see if you qualify. The full background investigation is done after you pass the poly and the psyc. Due to the high number of applicants not passing the psyc and or the poly it is my departments policy to conduct the full background after this process to ensure that man power is not wasted. Can you imagine if the psyc and poly were done at the end of the hiring process. think of all the man hours spent on background investigations only to have a candidate fail the psyc or the poly. My department has 4000-5000 applicants a year. I think this is the best way to save tax payers dollars.

If everything is as you claim, your two friends have things they just arent telling you. Even life-long friends keep secrets from each other.

I understand the science behind the polygraph, as well as the human physiology, and how an experienced examiner discerns differences. One part of the polygraph that trips people up is the "challenge" by the examiner, people fail for inconsistency there as well.

The point is, that you are judging an entire system based on your few examples where you cannot be privy to every factor.

 

[greaslightnin]

I guess you guys are right. You never know what secrets people have. even the ones you grew up with. obviously the system does work and I was quick to judge it. I guess I was upset at the fact that 2 of my best friends failed the poly and I wanted to vent a little about it. Both have since applied again. hopefully things will go better for them the second time around. My partners younger brother had the same thing happen. He failed it the first time but re-applied and passed it the second time around. He is now working the road and catching the bad guys.

By the way, I thought you were joking about pucker pad as well. LOL!

 

[FordSVTFan]

I guess you guys are right. You never know what secrets people have. even the ones you grew up with. obviously the system does work and I was quick to judge it. I guess I was upset at the fact that 2 of my best friends failed the poly and I wanted to vent a little about it. Both have since applied again. hopefully things will go better for them the second time around. My partners younger brother had the same thing happen. He failed it the first time but re-applied and passed it the second time around. He is now working the road and catching the bad guys.

By the way, I thought you were joking about pucker pad as well. LOL!

One of the biggest problems identified for candidates is that when they are asked the poly questions before the actual examination, they dont tell the examiner that the question needs to be better worded to fit their situation so they may confidently answer yes or no. What happens often is that they dont want to identify a question that they cant truthfully answer yes/no and without letting the examiner know, they then get nervous during the exam.

For instance, "do you drink alcohol to excess?" I rarely drink and when I do it is one drink. But during the week prior to my poly, it was St. Pattys day and I had 3 drinks that day. Nothing excessive, and I was at a neighbors house, but the more I heard the question and my answer, I started getting worked up. So, I stopped the examiner and explained the situation. He rephrased the question to state "In the past two years was there an occassion where you had more than 4 drinks in any single situation?"

That relieved my anxiety about the question and the ambiguity that the word "excess" left in my mind.

 

[greaslightnin]

thank god they did not ask me the alcohol question.. LOL!

 

[RDJ]

thank god they did not ask me the alcohol question.. LOL!

I will share a story ..
I was on a ploy after coming back from overseas. it had been long overdue and my turn was finally here.
When going over one of the question sets I get this question
Him: would you consider selling secrets for Money ...
Me: You can't ask me that
Him: Why?
Me: Because I can't answer No to it.
Him: WHAT!?!?!? you would consider selling secrets?!?!?!
Me: Look, We both know that there is a standing offer from the KGB of 10K for a copy of our phone book has been for years. there is no way in hell I would give them a copy for 10K. BUT, if Ivan Ivanovich were to lay 1 million dollars on the table in a brief case and say "this for a copy of your phone book" you're damn right I am going to consider it. The first thought through anyone's mind is going to be "where can I put the money and not get caught" and anybody that says otherwise is a liar. and if your machine doesn't show them a liar then you and your machine aren't worth spit. Now you can ask me if I HAVE sold secrets for money ... THAT I can answer no to ... but you can't ask me if I would consider it.
Him - ok lets move on ....
When he turned the machine back on he worded it "Have you ever sold secrets for money" I answered NO and we moved on from there. I will have to admit that polygraph, while a pain in the ass, gave me lots of opportunities to screw with the guys mind. Because as a CI poly there were lots of things to talk about.

 

[greaslightnin]

I will share a story ..
I was on a ploy after coming back from overseas. it had been long overdue and my turn was finally here.
When going over one of the question sets I get this question
Him: would you consider selling secrets for Money ...
Me: You can't ask me that
Him: Why?
Me: Because I can't answer No to it.
Him: WHAT!?!?!? you would consider selling secrets?!?!?!
Me: Look, We both know that there is a standing offer from the KGB of 10K for a copy of our phone book has been for years. there is no way in hell I would give them a copy for 10K. BUT, if Ivan Ivanovich were to lay 1 million dollars on the table in a brief case and say "this for a copy of your phone book" you're damn right I am going to consider it. The first thought through anyone's mind is going to be "where can I put the money and not get caught" and anybody that says otherwise is a liar. and if your machine doesn't show them a liar then you and your machine aren't worth spit. Now you can ask me if I HAVE sold secrets for money ... THAT I can answer no to ... but you can't ask me if I would consider it.
Him - ok lets move on ....
When he turned the machine back on he worded it "Have you ever sold secrets for money" I answered NO and we moved on from there. I will have to admit that polygraph, while a pain in the ass, gave me lots of opportunities to screw with the guys mind. Because as a CI poly there were lots of things to talk about.

now that's funny..

 

[98chromesvt]

Well, I just got the results back and I passed. I must say some of the questions were kind of weird. They are starting my background investigation now. In 30 days, they will make me an appointment for my Psych in Miami. Hopefully everything goes well and it doesn’t take too much longer. I started the process in March. FHP is notorious for dragging their feet though... Any advice of the Psych?

Thanks Alot
Greg

 

[RDJ]

Well, I just got the results back and I passed. I must say some of the questions were kind of weird. They are starting my background investigation now. In 30 days, they will make me an appointment for my Psych in Miami. Hopefully everything goes well and it doesn’t take too much longer. I started the process in March. FHP is notorious for dragging their feet though... Any advice of the Psych?

Thanks Alot
Greg

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

First off: congrats on passing the poly and going to the next step
Second: 5 months is nothing ... try getting into one of the three letter Fed agencies ... 12-18 months minimum for some of them
Third: Psych ... no drugs 48 hours before you go ... be sure to get a good nights sleep. If you get a hot woman psych evaluator don't drool on your tie. Remember the truth is your friend.

 

[98chromesvt]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

First off: congrats on passing the poly and going to the next step
Second: 5 months is nothing ... try getting into one of the three letter Fed agencies ... 12-18 months minimum for some of them
Third: Psych ... no drugs 48 hours before you go ... be sure to get a good nights sleep. If you get a hot woman psych evaluator don't drool on your tie. Remember the truth is your friend.

lol Thanks Man..

 

[Root1022]

LOL chromesvt congrats on passing but i dont know how you did it, just reading through the arguments over this makes me nervous as hell and i'll probably never have to take one lol, i dont think i could pass a damn question now lol!

 

[98chromesvt]

LOL chromesvt congrats on passing but i dont know how you did it, just reading through the arguments over this makes me nervous as hell and i'll probably never have to take one lol, i dont think i could pass a damn question now lol!

lol, I was definately nervous..

btw..

Thanks for serving and be safe out there..

 

[Root1022]

lol, I was definately nervous..

btw..

Thanks for serving and be safe out there..

I appriciate that, thank you!

 

[98chromesvt]

UPDATE!

Well, I just got a packet in the mail from FHP. It seems they have sent me documentation to question 5 of my neighbors... I don't really talk to any of my neighbors, so I’ll see what happens...

They are also asking for 5 more personal references (that I have known at least 3 years). Thing is I didn't make a copy of my original application, so I’m unsure who I have already used. I was thinking rather than looking irresponsible. I would just come up with 5 new references.

To be honest I don't really know a lot of people at all. The ones I do know I havn't known 3 years. I not sure what to do regarding this part. I'm supposed to contact the investigator within 10 days confirming that I received the documents. I'm thinking I will just be honest with him and tell him my situation about not having references that I have known 3 years. I guess it can't hurt to be honest.

I think it would look bad to ask who I had already listed as a reference on my original application. I'm not sure..:shrug:

They scheduled my psych for Monday Aug 11th at 8:30 am in Miami. That’s only 10 days notice so hopefully my job understands. I also live in Orlando which is a good 5 hrs from Miami. I'm thinking I'll head up on Sunday and stay the night. I'm sort of nervous. I have no idea what a psych involves.

Any Input?

Thanks
Greg

 

[RDJ]

UPDATE!

Well, I just got a packet in the mail from FHP. It seems they have sent me documentation to question 5 of my neighbors... I don't really talk to any of my neighbors, so I’ll see what happens...

Doesn't matter if you talk to your neighbors or not. They will talk to them anyway. The kinds of things they will ask them are like "does he throw loud parties" "what do you think of him as a neighbor" "has he ever given you a reason to question his honesty or trustworthiness" the investigator may also ask them for other references that my know something about you. then they may or may not go talk to them

They are also asking for 5 more personal references (that I have known at least 3 years). Thing is I didn't make a copy of my original application, so I’m unsure who I have already used. I was thinking rather than looking irresponsible. I would just come up with 5 new references.

5 new references are what they are looking for. they will talk to the ones on your application and some of the ones from the new list. They will likely ask them the same questions as your neighbors as I have mentioned above. and will ask them for names of others that know you and move on from there.

To be honest I don't really know a lot of people at all. The ones I do know I havn't known 3 years. I not sure what to do regarding this part. I'm supposed to contact the investigator within 10 days confirming that I received the documents. I'm thinking I will just be honest with him and tell him my situation about not having references that I have known 3 years. I guess it can't hurt to be honest.

if you don't have any friends where you currently live what about friends that you have had where you previously lived? Your idea of calling the investigator and asking the question is a good one. and yes honesty is ALWAYS the thing to do. you are correct that it cant hurt to be honest but it can hurt like hell to be dishonest LOL

I think it would look bad to ask who I had already listed as a reference on my original application. I'm not sure..:shrug:

it would not look bad to use the same but that is really not what they are looking for. I would be surprised if the paperwork you received doesn't have on it somewhere that these should be different than what you have already provided.

They scheduled my psych for Monday Aug 11th at 8:30 am in Miami. That’s only 10 days notice so hopefully my job understands. I also live in Orlando which is a good 5 hrs from Miami. I'm thinking I'll head up on Sunday and stay the night. I'm sort of nervous. I have no idea what a psych involves.

heading up on sunday is a good idea. it will give you some relax time. No reason to be nervous. You have passed the poly that is by far the worst part. just relax and be honest and you will be fine. I would get a hotel close to where the exam is so you can be sure to be on time and not get lost on the way
[/QUOTE]

 

[FordSVTFan]

UPDATE!

Well, I just got a packet in the mail from FHP. It seems they have sent me documentation to question 5 of my neighbors... I don't really talk to any of my neighbors, so I’ll see what happens...

They are also asking for 5 more personal references (that I have known at least 3 years). Thing is I didn't make a copy of my original application, so I’m unsure who I have already used. I was thinking rather than looking irresponsible. I would just come up with 5 new references.

To be honest I don't really know a lot of people at all. The ones I do know I havn't known 3 years. I not sure what to do regarding this part. I'm supposed to contact the investigator within 10 days confirming that I received the documents. I'm thinking I will just be honest with him and tell him my situation about not having references that I have known 3 years. I guess it can't hurt to be honest.

I think it would look bad to ask who I had already listed as a reference on my original application. I'm not sure..:shrug:

They scheduled my psych for Monday Aug 11th at 8:30 am in Miami. That’s only 10 days notice so hopefully my job understands. I also live in Orlando which is a good 5 hrs from Miami. I'm thinking I'll head up on Sunday and stay the night. I'm sort of nervous. I have no idea what a psych involves.

Any Input?

Thanks
Greg

You have the right idea, simply be honest with the investigator. Explain the situation and he will give you options.

Also, you can make Miami in 3 1/2 hours from Orlando. It is only 230 miles from Orlando. I often drive from Orlando to Miami or Tampa to Miami. It sucks but it can be done without staying overnight down there.

Good Luck.

 

[98chromesvt]

Thanks for the kind words guys..

 

[RookieBeotch]

just out of curiosity does anyone have an idea on what kind of reading you would get if you just honesty don't know or dont remember example:
"Have you done ______ in the last year?" and you don't know the specific times and its an honest dont know, or theft from an employer you might be thinking well does taking a pen home count... I know these arn't the best examples I've had better ones when thinking about this before but I think you might get my drift. I'm just curious what kind of reading you would get if you just dont remember in terms of yes/no.

 

[98chromesvt]

just out of curiosity does anyone have an idea on what kind of reading you would get if you just honesty don't know or dont remember example:
"Have you done ______ in the last year?" and you don't know the specific times and its an honest dont know, or theft from an employer you might be thinking well does taking a pen home count... I know these arn't the best examples I've had better ones when thinking about this before but I think you might get my drift. I'm just curious what kind of reading you would get if you just dont remember in terms of yes/no.

Well, as far as like the taking of office supplies and stuff. They ask you to give a dollar amount of anything you have taken from a past employer. Example.. Have you taken more than $5 worth of money/merchandise from any employer.

Your pretty much expected to know what you have done though. Like they ask alot of alcohol questions. Example.. Have you ever operated a motor vehicle while under the influence of alcohol. Some of they questions could have grey areas.. Like I know I have had a beer then drove my car. So, If I knew something could apply.. I just admitted to it.:shrug: