Polygraph..

[98chromesvt]

Well, after graduating the academy in December... I had put alot of applications out here in the Orlando area. Well, due to a massive hiaring freeze, I hadn't head much back at all from the county or local pds... I decided to apply for Florida Highway Patrol. Well, I put my app in and waited and waited and waited some more lol... I then finally got contacted for the PAT, and just recently passed that. I just got another letter from them after about 4 weeks of waiting. The letter came today 6/26/2008. The letter says they scheduled my Polygraph for 6/30/2008... Yes, that’s Monday and today is Thursday.. 3 days notice.. Well, all and all I'm very excited... I know I still have a long road ahead but this is the furthest I've gotten in the hiring process.. Since its fhp, I'm still required to attend an 8 week academy in Tallahassee.. Which I really don't mind as long as I’m getting paid.. I guess I just wanted to ask what the Polygraph was like for those who had been through one...

Thanks
Greg

 

[Ryan]

CI or Lifestyle?...wait....

 

[FordSVTFan]

It is combination of both. This topic has been covered ad nauseum. Be honest, dont try to fool the machine, the examiner will know. When they go over the questions with you in the beginning, clarify any questions that you dont feel comfortable answering as a yes or no, without a caveat. That way the examiner can reformat the question.

 

[RDJ]

Do a search there are a couple of very good threads that cover it.

 

[astrodudepsu]

It's not that bad. Just be straight with the examiner. Be prepared to sit in a tiny room for 3 hours.

 

[Lt. ZO6]

Also ensure to get plenty of rest the night before the test.

 

[greaslightnin]

there is a big myth about polygraphs. some people actually think this machine can tap into your brain and tell that you are lying LOL! bottom line is it can't. the polygraph registers heart rate and breathing pattern that's it. therfore, try to stay clam and breathe normal. you'll be fine.

 

[FordSVTFan]

there is a big myth about polygraphs. some people actually think this machine can tap into your brain and tell that you are lying LOL! bottom line is it can't. the polygraph registers heart rate and breathing pattern that's it. therfore, try to stay clam and breathe normal. you'll be fine.

Polygraph ONLY registers heart rate and breathing pattern? That is not accurate. The only to be fine, is not to lie.

 

[RDJ]

there is a big myth about polygraphs. some people actually think this machine can tap into your brain and tell that you are lying LOL! bottom line is it can't. the polygraph registers heart rate and breathing pattern that's it. therfore, try to stay clam and breathe normal. you'll be fine.

so what is your basis for this statement? how many polygraphs have you taken and who administered them?

I have had at least 4. so I can speak from experience and say that you are 100% incorrect.

 

[greaslightnin]

so what is your basis for this statement? how many polygraphs have you taken and who administered them?

I have had at least 4. so I can speak from experience and say that you are 100% incorrect.

you are 100% right. I guess my 15 years in law enforcement does not count for anything. the fact that these machines are not mind readers is why they are not admissable in court. they are not 100% accurate and they have been beaten countless times. I'm not saying it's a good thing that it can be beaten. just that it can.

 

[greaslightnin]

Polygraph ONLY registers heart rate and breathing pattern? That is not accurate. The only to be fine, is not to lie.

you are right. if you got nothing to hide why worry.
however, i have friends that i have tried to help get into the department who are 100% straight. never even experimented with drugs or stolen anything in their lives and have failed. at the same time we have had some police applicants who have passed with flying colors only to find out through backround investigtions that they have stolen from previous employers,have been affiliated with gangs, experimented with drugs. so what does that tell you. I feel that if it is not admissable in court it should not be a requirement to get hired. I have had a few good friends who would have made excellent officers only to be judged by a machine that is not 100% accurate.

 

[RDJ]

you are 100% right. I guess my 15 years in law enforcement does not count for anything. the fact that these machines are not mind readers is why they are not admissable in court. they are not 100% full proof and they have been beaten countless times. I'm not saying it's a good thing that it can be beaten. just that it can.

Well obviously your experience with the polygraph is lacking, and your understanding of the process incomplete. You state:

the polygraph registers heart rate and breathing pattern that's it

this is incorrect. A correctly done poly includes a device to measure moisture (goes up when you lie), Blood pressure, as well as heart rate and breathing patterns.

No one is arguing that they are "mind readers" and you are correct that they are not admissible in court because they are not 100% fool proof. but that does not mean they are not a useful tool when administered by a trained and competent operator.

They are "beaten" for any number of reasons. If you EXCLUDE the "undetermined" those that actually beat them are not nearly as numerous as you imply.

a sociopath will likely beat a polygraph depending on how the questions are asked. However 98% of people will not beat a polygraph even if they try.

By "Beat" I mean they come out as telling the truth when in fact they are lying. Most who claim to 'beat' the poly come out as undetermined rather than "truthful"

going into a poly after having lied about the facts and expecting to beat it by relaxing and controlling your breathing is a simpletons tactic and does not work to beat it. even a moderately competent operator will detect the controlled breathing in a new york second.

 

[RDJ]

you are right. if you got nothing to hide why worry.
however, i have friends that i have tried to help get into the department who are 100% straight. never even experimented with drugs or stolen anything in their lives and have failed. at the same time we have had some police applicants who have passed with flying colors only to find out through backround investigtions that they have stolen from previous employers,have been affiliated with gangs, experimented with drugs. so what does that tell you. I feel that if it is not admissable in court it should not be a requirement to get hired. I have had a few good friends who would have made excellent officers only to be judged by a machine that is not 100% accurate.

this tells me that you have an incompetent boob conducting your polygraphs.

 

[FordSVTFan]

you are 100% right. I guess my 15 years in law enforcement does not count for anything. the fact that these machines are not mind readers is why they are not admissable in court. they are not 100% accurate and they have been beaten countless times. I'm not saying it's a good thing that it can be beaten. just that it can.

The reason polygraph is not admissible in court, has nothing to do with the science behind them. It is not admissible on 6th Amendment grounds under the Confrontation Clause,.

The better trained the examiner, the less likely anyone is to beat it.

 

[FordSVTFan]

Dont forget the "ass pucker" pad, which measure the wink factor.

No one is arguing that they are "mind readers" and you are correct that they are not admissible in court because they are not 100% fool proof. but that does not mean they are not a useful tool when administered by a trained and competent operator.

Again, polygraphs are not admissible on the basis of the 6th Amendment's Confrontation Clause.

 

[RDJ]

Dont forget the "ass pucker" pad, which measure the wink factor.



Again, polygraphs are not admissible on the basis of the 6th Amendment's Confrontation Clause.

well I was giving him the benefit of the doubt LOL!

 

[greaslightnin]

Dont forget the "ass pucker" pad, which measure the wink factor.



Again, polygraphs are not admissible on the basis of the 6th Amendment's Confrontation Clause.

what I mean is that good candidates have been turned away because people get nervous. Another issue is people with hypohydrosis. This is a medical condition that causes excessive sweating including sweaty palms. It is even more present when they get nervous. So here is a guy who really wants to be a police officer. He has wanted this all his life, he is nervous his heart rate starts to increase etc. etc. but does not pass because of it.
I think that sucks. then you get your dirt bag who happen to slip through the cracks. He knows the system so he is calm and collective and passes with flying colors.

 

[greaslightnin]

RDJ I'm new here and only trying to make friends. I'm sorry for my original post. It was a bit sarcastic. By no means am I a polygraph expert but I have a little bit of knowledge about them based on my line of work. You are right, it does not just measure breathing and heart rate only. It measures breathing rate, pulse, blood pressure, prespiration and sometimes
leg and arm movement. The point i was trying to make initially was that there are people out there who believe these machines have some magical powers that say if you are lying or not. I was just trying to clarify that it works on your vitals. Anyway, I found a cool link that talks about it.
http://science.howstuffworks.com/question123.htm

 

[FordSVTFan]

what I mean is that good candidates have been turned away because people get nervous. Another issue is people with hypohydrosis. This is a medical condition that causes excessive sweating including sweaty palms. It is even more present when they get nervous. So here is a guy who really wants to be a police officer. He has wanted this all his life, he is nervous his heart rate starts to increase etc. etc. but does not pass because of it.
I think that sucks. then you get your dirt bag who happen to slip through the cracks. He knows the system so he is calm and collective and passes with flying colors.

If that has been your experience, then the polygraph examiner should be fired. Additionally, if someone has a documented case of hyperhidrosis, that is taken into account.

You keep accounting for their failure because of increased systemic responses due to nervousness. That is the reason there is an acclimation period and the person is asked all the questions and their answers clarified before the test is performed. That serves numerous purposes, such as allowing them to calm down, allowing them to acclimate, allowing them to clarify answers which initially cant be answered in a yes or no fashion.

But to say that they got false response because they got nervous and their BP, HR, and sweat level increased is not accurate. As the baseline nervousness is recorded and negative responses are deviations from the baseline. So if it were general nervousness from the test and questions, and not a few specific questions, their baseline would remain the same. To record a negative response, the examiner notes the physiologic responses to those specific questions. So, a person with hyperhidrosis would be sweating at a constant level because of the stress of the situation, and their HR and BP would be up in general, but there should be no spikes just because they are under stress. Spikes occur as a physiologic response to that particular question.

The reason there is such a gap between asking questions by the examiner is so the person can return to baseline.

If dirtbags are passing a full field background investigation and making to a poly and then passing a poly, there are a shitload of problems with you depts due diligence and the way they run their B.I.s and Polys.

 

[greaslightnin]

If that has been your experience, then the polygraph examiner should be fired. Additionally, if someone has a documented case of hyperhidrosis, that is taken into account.

You keep accounting for their failure because of increased systemic responses due to nervousness. That is the reason there is an acclimation period and the person is asked all the questions and their answers clarified before the test is performed. That serves numerous purposes, such as allowing them to calm down, allowing them to acclimate, allowing them to clarify answers which initially cant be answered in a yes or no fashion.

But to say that they got false response because they got nervous and their BP, HR, and sweat level increased is not accurate. As the baseline nervousness is recorded and negative responses are deviations from the baseline. So if it were general nervousness from the test and questions, and not a few specific questions, their baseline would remain the same. To record a negative response, the examiner notes the physiologic responses to those specific questions. So, a person with hyperhidrosis would be sweating at a constant level because of the stress of the situation, and their HR and BP would be up in general, but there should be no spikes just because they are under stress. Spikes occur as a physiologic response to that particular question.

The reason there is such a gap between asking questions by the examiner is so the person can return to baseline.

If dirtbags are passing a full field background investigation and making to a poly and then passing a poly, there are a shitload of problems with you depts due diligence and the way they run their B.I.s and Polys.

Again, I'm not an expert on polygraphs. your explanation on the matter makes perfect sense to me. I'm just using 2 examples of friends who have tried to get on the department but for some reason or another failed the polygraph. These are life long friends. I grew up with these guys. I know they were not involved in any criminal activity or anything that would dismiss them as candidates. As for our polygraph examiners compitence goes, I would have to say it's pretty high. I work with the Miami-Dade Police Department (fromerley known as Metro-Dade Police) we are the largest law enforcement acgency in Florida with close to 5000 sworn officers. Last time I remebered we had 5 polygraph examiners working for our department. I think on rare occassions it is subed out to polygraph companies for civilian hire. :shrug:

Note: My department does a priliminary background in the first part of the hiring process just to see if you qualify. The full background investigation is done after you pass the poly and the psyc. Due to the high number of applicants not passing the psyc and or the poly it is my departments policy to conduct the full background after this process to ensure that man power is not wasted. Can you imagine if the psyc and poly were done at the end of the hiring process. think of all the man hours spent on background investigations only to have a candidate fail the psyc or the poly. My department has 4000-5000 applicants a year. I think this is the best way to save tax payers dollars.