Police critic gets use of force training...

[98 Saleen Cobra]

Yea lets use spray when a subject is that close.. LMK how that works out for you lol.. Baton?? Going that close to man of that size.. good luck.. Articulation.. That's all I'm saying.

 

[musclefan21]

I've been in a few Ol fashion Donny Brooks and cops around here have an asp baton taser and sig. The first two hurt like hell and are enough to stop an attack or someone resisting arrest... You don't have to shoot every ****ing person that resists you.

If you only knew how many people physically resist cops annually and how many get shot, you would then see, probably less than 1% of the resisters get shot and most of those are armed with a weapon anyway.

You should actually do some ride alongs with a busy department, maybe go through a scenario or two to better understand how humans are. Especially when they are emotional, mentally unstable and/or under some harsh drugs. Then just like this guy, you will change your mind as well. It is easy to monday night quarterback.

 

[musclefan21]

Yeah, he shot an unarmed man showing mad aggression, disregarding the "officer's orders" and with the ability to overpower him and cause harm or death.

He also didnt have any other less lethal options such as pepper spray, tazer or baton.

Tazer is the only thing to be considered there, but he wasnt equipped, just like MANY officers, like me. Pepper spray and batons just dont work. Everytime i sprayed someone, he fought harder because it pissed him off and shit got all over me as well.. Baton? I use mine to knock on doors. On paper it is something but one on one deal like that? Not really effective. Most likely the bad guy would take that from him and beat him to death with it.

 

[ZYBORG]

Tazer is the only thing to be considered there, but he wasnt equipped, just like MANY officers, like me. Pepper spray and batons just dont work. Everytime i sprayed someone, he fought harder because it pissed him off and shit got all over me as well.. Baton? I use mine to knock on doors. On paper it is something but one on one deal like that? Not really effective. Most likely the bad guy would take that from him and beat him to death with it.

That is why I actually agree with the fact that the "perp" in this scenario was rightfully shot. Some other scenarios, not so much.

 

[Tezz500]

If you only knew how many people physically resist cops annually and how many get shot, you would then see, probably less than 1% of the resisters get shot and most of those are armed with a weapon anyway.

You should actually do some ride alongs with a busy department, maybe go through a scenario or two to better understand how humans are. Especially when they are emotional, mentally unstable and/or under some harsh drugs. Then just like this guy, you will change your mind as well. It is easy to monday night quarterback.

Let's picture ME... Doing a ride along....

And I actually agree with your stat. It's low and most cops probably aren't pussies and shoot first with other tools available.

This guy was given scenarios and ONE tool. The most lethal.

 

[musclefan21]

Let's picture ME... Doing a ride along....

And I actually agree with your stat. It's low and most cops probably aren't pussies and shoot first with other tools available.

This guy was given scenarios and ONE tool. The most lethal.

Bwahaha!! Tezz doing a ride along... you would like it i bet!

We have gotten guns off of thugs so many times, it is not even funny. They just didnt threaten us or we were able to subdue them before they could. They are all alive, thankfully i am too :rockon:

 

[Tezz500]

Bwahaha!! Tezz doing a ride along... you would like it i bet!

We have gotten guns off of thugs so many times, it is not even funny. They just didnt threaten us or we were able to subdue them before they could. They are all alive, thankfully i am too :rockon:

And I'm sure not one single constitutional amendment was bent all to shit in the process. oke:

 

[HEMIHUNTER]

Can't believe he actually sided with the cops after going through the scenarios and saying you have to comply. Of course this wont get national attention...

I read about this on another Forum and I'm waiting to see it on NBC.:rollseyes

 

[scott9050]

There is no just one right way to handle situations like that.

Many things need to be considered. You have your gun drawn at a guy who is much larger than you, clearly showing aggression, as you responded to the scene. He sees you, a fully uniformed officer with your gun pointed at him but he disregards that, disregards your commands and still charges at you. Now, you have the option to holster that weapon and go hands on with a guy who is mad and twice your size and he possibly disarms you and uses your sidearm against you, or you shoot that unarmed man, who was seconds away from being armed and shooting you.

So many officers got killed by unarmed men who disarmed them by simply overppwering them and killing them at point blank.

Again, i stress this, each situation is different. the whole totality of the circumstances matter. This includes officers observation, knowledgle of the assailant, demeanor, visibility condition, level of officers training, officers capabilities, availability of immediate back up, etc. I can go on and on... many things factor. It isnt black and white, cut and dry.

For example, This critic guy would be justified if that was true as he was clearly in fear of his life at the time of the shooting and add thr other factors into that. But not every officer would shoot that guy. P.s. not ever officers are equipped with tasers.

Yeah, I understand the use of force Continuum and how the lethal force threshold is different for each person. I worked in a maximum security prison in my younger days and we had nothing stronger than OC and a baton when we were attacked, and often times there was no time to even use those. I do believe that for one reason or another hand to hand skills and effective intermediate weapon skills are not taught. Perhaps POST standards should be raised in some states. For example:

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/stor...-officers-tote-guns-little-training/15540981/

"Many assume police officers are rigorously trained before being allowed to patrol the streets.

But drive through rural Louisiana and it's possible to be stopped by a law enforcement officer who's never experienced a day of police academy and instruction on use of force, stressful scenarios and physical fitness that comes with it. Sometimes, an eight-hour firearms training and on-the-job guidance is all an officer gets before starting work as a salaried, gun-toting, arrest-making officer.

Due to a permissive aspect of state law, a hodgepodge of different standards can crop up from one small agency to the next. It's a pattern experts say puts police departments, and the public, at risk.

In the small, often poorly-funded townships that connect larger cities such as Shreveport, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, many police departments take advantage of Revised Statute 40: 2405, which allows full-time officers to serve a year before finishing academy and obtaining their Peace Officer Standards and Training Council (POST) certification.

Officers working part time (39 hours a week or fewer) are not required to attend police academy, which typically lasts around 16 weeks, even if they work under such an arrangement for years on end. And some departments simply violate the law, sometimes failing to send full-time officers to the academy, according to Capt. Kenny Sanders, one of the state's top police trainers and director of the Caddo Sheriff's Regional Academy.

"It scares me to think that my wife and daughter are cruising the streets of Louisiana and there's an officer that may pull them over on the road on a traffic stop and he's totally untrained," Sanders says. Cadets from 10 parishes and some 110 agencies in Louisiana attend the academy he oversees.



Justin Sundquist works with other cadets during firearms training during the 36th basic academy recently at the CPSO Regional Training Academy in south Caddo Parish.(Photo: Jim Hudelson/The Times)


Large city or parish law enforcement agencies generally can afford to send new hires directly to an academy, and do so. But small municipalities, where the tax base is less robust, sometimes wait before investing in the training.

When towns fail to properly prepare their police force, it's unfair to the officers and to the community, says Anthony Radosti, vice president of the Metropolitan Crime Commission, a New Orleans-based watchdog group. He also served as a New Orleans police officer for 23 years.

"Something could go deadly wrong," he said.

It's hard to pinpoint the number of employed, uncertified officers in the state, according to Bob Wertz of the Louisiana Commission on Law Enforcement, the organization that oversees POST.

But a look at the most recent class at the Caddo academy provides a snapshot: of the 40 cadets, 27 never attended academy but were already working as law enforcement officers.

Sanders says every class includes at least a few who have already been working as officers. Some pipe up and admit they've served as full-time officers who have somehow gone undetected for several years without going to an academy, he said.

This year's new cadets included some from Vivian, which has 17 full-time officers; Ringgold, with four full-time officers; and Coushatta, which employs eight full-time officers.

Lt. Melvin Ashley, patrol supervisor and training officer for the Vivian Police Department, says the one-year window is used as a test period to see if new employees are worth the investment in training.

"As a small town, we don't have the type of budget to send somebody (only to find) we wasted that money," Ashley said.

When asked why his organization takes the risk of putting an uncertified officer on the street, Ashley said rookies are accompanied and taught on-the-job by veteran officers, who then determine when the new employee is ready to patrol alone.

There's no minimum amount of time for that training, he said. When responding to a call, new officers are met by experienced officers and also must receive firearms training.

POST administers an eight-hour pre-academy firearms training which includes qualifying with a weapon, according to Wertz. There is a minimum of 40 hours in the basic POST firearms training cadets go through in academy.

Representatives of the Coushatta and Ringgold Police Departments described similar arrangements as Vivian for new officers, emphasizing that rookies are monitored by experienced agents.

"If they're not trained, they're a danger to the civil populace. They're armed and they have biases just like we all do," said Henry Walker, a Shreveport civil rights attorney who regularly worked on police misconduct cases when he was president of the Louisiana Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

"It's a recipe for disaster," he said.

Radosti cautions that small departments are still exposing themselves to serious liability issues by putting uncertified officers on the street even if they're accompanied by a veteran.

Rookie officers are "there to observe, learn and follow proper instructions. If he winds up in a foot chase, he could be separated from the other officer and he could be called on to make decisions that a trained officer should be making," said Radosti. "If an explosive situation occurs, he may be put in a situation he's not trained to handle."

If accused of a federal civil rights violation following an excessive use of force complaint involving an untrained officer, a department would likely have a tough time defending it in federal court, he says.

"It only takes one incident to make all the money you've basically saved by holding off the training go down the drain," said Radosti.

 

[Tezz500]

Yeah, I understand the use of force Continuum and how the lethal force threshold is different for each person. I worked in a maximum security prison in my younger days and we had nothing stronger than OC and a baton when we were attacked, and often times there was no time to even use those. I do believe that for one reason or another hand to hand skills and effective intermediate weapon skills are not taught. Perhaps POST standards should be raised in some states. For example:

http://www.shreveporttimes.com/stor...-officers-tote-guns-little-training/15540981/

"Many assume police officers are rigorously trained before being allowed to patrol the streets.

But drive through rural Louisiana and it's possible to be stopped by a law enforcement officer who's never experienced a day of police academy and instruction on use of force, stressful scenarios and physical fitness that comes with it. Sometimes, an eight-hour firearms training and on-the-job guidance is all an officer gets before starting work as a salaried, gun-toting, arrest-making officer.

Due to a permissive aspect of state law, a hodgepodge of different standards can crop up from one small agency to the next. It's a pattern experts say puts police departments, and the public, at risk.

In the small, often poorly-funded townships that connect larger cities such as Shreveport, Baton Rouge and New Orleans, many police departments take advantage of Revised Statute 40: 2405, which allows full-time officers to serve a year before finishing academy and obtaining their Peace Officer Standards and Training Council (POST) certification.

Officers working part time (39 hours a week or fewer) are not required to attend police academy, which typically lasts around 16 weeks, even if they work under such an arrangement for years on end. And some departments simply violate the law, sometimes failing to send full-time officers to the academy, according to Capt. Kenny Sanders, one of the state's top police trainers and director of the Caddo Sheriff's Regional Academy.

"It scares me to think that my wife and daughter are cruising the streets of Louisiana and there's an officer that may pull them over on the road on a traffic stop and he's totally untrained," Sanders says. Cadets from 10 parishes and some 110 agencies in Louisiana attend the academy he oversees.



Justin Sundquist works with other cadets during firearms training during the 36th basic academy recently at the CPSO Regional Training Academy in south Caddo Parish.(Photo: Jim Hudelson/The Times)


Large city or parish law enforcement agencies generally can afford to send new hires directly to an academy, and do so. But small municipalities, where the tax base is less robust, sometimes wait before investing in the training.

When towns fail to properly prepare their police force, it's unfair to the officers and to the community, says Anthony Radosti, vice president of the Metropolitan Crime Commission, a New Orleans-based watchdog group. He also served as a New Orleans police officer for 23 years.

"Something could go deadly wrong," he said.

It's hard to pinpoint the number of employed, uncertified officers in the state, according to Bob Wertz of the Louisiana Commission on Law Enforcement, the organization that oversees POST.

But a look at the most recent class at the Caddo academy provides a snapshot: of the 40 cadets, 27 never attended academy but were already working as law enforcement officers.

Sanders says every class includes at least a few who have already been working as officers. Some pipe up and admit they've served as full-time officers who have somehow gone undetected for several years without going to an academy, he said.

This year's new cadets included some from Vivian, which has 17 full-time officers; Ringgold, with four full-time officers; and Coushatta, which employs eight full-time officers.

Lt. Melvin Ashley, patrol supervisor and training officer for the Vivian Police Department, says the one-year window is used as a test period to see if new employees are worth the investment in training.

"As a small town, we don't have the type of budget to send somebody (only to find) we wasted that money," Ashley said.

When asked why his organization takes the risk of putting an uncertified officer on the street, Ashley said rookies are accompanied and taught on-the-job by veteran officers, who then determine when the new employee is ready to patrol alone.

There's no minimum amount of time for that training, he said. When responding to a call, new officers are met by experienced officers and also must receive firearms training.

POST administers an eight-hour pre-academy firearms training which includes qualifying with a weapon, according to Wertz. There is a minimum of 40 hours in the basic POST firearms training cadets go through in academy.

Representatives of the Coushatta and Ringgold Police Departments described similar arrangements as Vivian for new officers, emphasizing that rookies are monitored by experienced agents.

"If they're not trained, they're a danger to the civil populace. They're armed and they have biases just like we all do," said Henry Walker, a Shreveport civil rights attorney who regularly worked on police misconduct cases when he was president of the Louisiana Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

"It's a recipe for disaster," he said.

Radosti cautions that small departments are still exposing themselves to serious liability issues by putting uncertified officers on the street even if they're accompanied by a veteran.

Rookie officers are "there to observe, learn and follow proper instructions. If he winds up in a foot chase, he could be separated from the other officer and he could be called on to make decisions that a trained officer should be making," said Radosti. "If an explosive situation occurs, he may be put in a situation he's not trained to handle."

If accused of a federal civil rights violation following an excessive use of force complaint involving an untrained officer, a department would likely have a tough time defending it in federal court, he says.

"It only takes one incident to make all the money you've basically saved by holding off the training go down the drain," said Radosti.

What did you plan on naming this novel..... 0.0

 

[scott9050]

Civilians who are being charged by the prosecution do not get the opportunity to appear before the grand jury in any state that I know of...please provide a source of your information....which states do they allow this?

As far as invrstigations being private....anything used to indict should be made available to the defense...no grand jury record should be closed...else the public can never know what was really said to a jury to get the indictment in the first place. It, at the least, gives the appearance of the prosecution of having something to hide...perhaps outright lies.

Certainly GJ records need to be handed over to a defendant after being found not guilty after a trial.

It's the justice system that needs to be cleaned up. The system..at the least ....has the appearance of evil...and no real checks and balances.

We need to know justice can be had for everyone.....and not just trust in it because we are told to..

There is no oversight often times outside of the county apparatus that has a lot to lose in a lawsuit. Case in point:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...58d55a-975e-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html

John Geer was standing in the doorway to his home unarmed with his hands up when he was shot and killed by a Fairfax county cop, the third unarmed unthreatening civilian killed in just a few years by the same department that has already lost two wrongful death suits for the other incidents.