no worries, i'll let you guys know after i talk to them in a bit...
haha, it was definitely option one. trust me, i barely wanted to make the short 15 minute drive home as it was, let aone get on it and whatnot...
Piston damage, causes?
- Thread starter 99riocobra
- Start date
thats a TIMING ISSUE... detonated the living crap out of it....
wow you beat me to it Bob! i was actually just about to email you the pics and get your thoughts. glad to hear you say that. so you'd agree it's a faulty tuner then correct?
oops.
What kind of shape was the number 8 plug in when you pulled it out? Something got losse in that cylinder and bounced around.
So.. Update?
interesting, Id say timing and fuel.
it was in perfect shape, as in there was no missing pieces. it was dripping in oil though...
what was bouncing around in that other cylinder was a piece of the piston and/or ring from the cylinder that had come apart... normal for this to happen
you mean in the #6 right? would it be possible for a piece of that #6 to go into #8? or are those all det marks and stuff you think?
that’s actually what i was kind of wondering ya know…
UPDATE: well i called and talked for a bit, emailed him all of the pics I got, and then talked through email throughout the day(easier for me to email at work). i told him an amount i felt i was owed. then went up there after work and talked in person for a while. we went over all of the runs in their dyno files and stuff. i won’t lie everything looked ok(on the computer), except on the last run. the torque curve got real choppy after like 5500 and a/f was bouncing up and down. went up to as high as 12.5 which i pointed out, but he said “oh that’s what we shoot for cause that’s actually like 11.5 at the O2.” we debated in circles for like an hour and i finally just said we were getting nowhere and i’ll have to talk to someone else about this.
now, is it out of line for me to take this to like small claims court kind of thing? or get a lawyer on my own? i mean nothing’s gonna get done with me talking to him. i know MMR is gonna help me out and they’re being real cool, but i mean they can’t just be handing out new motors for someone elses screw ups ya know. and now i basically need a longblock, which i sure as heck can’t afford.
yes, it could easily get sucked into all the cylinders... i saw a valve drop 1 time in a cylinder and it made its way into 5 other cylinders..
this was NOT a fuel issue, but a timing issue.. this i am 100% of..
you wont be able to see anything on the dyno graph that'll explain what was going on.. your best bet is to move on.. you wont get anywhere going to court... you could always threaten them with badmouthing them etc..
have they (the tuner) even offered to help at all? what did they say or offer after you guys talked?
the debris from #6 probably made it into #8. your heads are probably toast as well.... once something like this happens, the debris goes from cyliner to cylinder via the heads... the valves will close on some of the debris leaving damage that can be invisible to the naked eye... if you heads *look* fine, be sure to have them tested before placing them back on the motor.
as for going to court, small claims maxes out at $5,000.00 (in most states) i would get all your recipts together and try to get to the $5,001.00 mark, so you can get a lawyer... speaking from a business standpoint, a letter from a lawyer, the cost to go to court, the time to go to court, will motivate them to get this handled.
Not to mention that when people hear they had to be taken to court to satisfy the customer, it will harm business.
Get a second opinion, preferably in writing, from a creditable source. Take it to the shop and tell them you are giving them a chance to fix the situation. Pay the tab, or fix the car...
If they refuse, you will probably have to search for help in the legal department...
You mentioned you didnt sign any paperwork before the dyno. this will benifit you, as they did not properly (in black-and-white) inform you of the risks of a dyno tune, protect themselves from poor-quality, or give you fair warning of an "automatic-settlement-payment."
(this is where they say "if your car blows up, corporate policy is to pay you $1,500.00 no questions asked and you hereby waive your right to sue.")
The key to winning this:
-2nd opinion (not on the interwebs. go to another performance tuning shop.)
-allowing them to fix the situation (if this winds up in court, their defense will be: "he didnt let us fix it. the other shop charged him too much expecting to get the money from us to fix it.)
-evidence (if applicable) of the properly running car before they touched it. you said you re-loaded someone else's tune, do you have a video of it after you were done building it with this other tune?
I've seen problems like this go to the courts before. The trick is doing your homework. You have to explain internal combustion engines to a "lay-man" of a judge, bring in evidence of a properly (and im-properly) running car before and after the shop took it, and you have to have expert witnesses to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT it was the shop's fault...
Thats teh key to winning*
the key to getting the most money is to allow the shop to try and fix the problem (bring them reciepts of the cost and have them pay you, or simply fix the car to the point where it was running before you brought it in.)
as for going to court, small claims maxes out at $5,000.00 (in most states) i would get all your recipts together and try to get to the $5,001.00 mark, so you can get a lawyer... speaking from a business standpoint, a letter from a lawyer, the cost to go to court, the time to go to court, will motivate them to get this handled.
Not to mention that when people hear they had to be taken to court to satisfy the customer, it will harm business.
Get a second opinion, preferably in writing, from a creditable source. Take it to the shop and tell them you are giving them a chance to fix the situation. Pay the tab, or fix the car...
If they refuse, you will probably have to search for help in the legal department...
You mentioned you didnt sign any paperwork before the dyno. this will benifit you, as they did not properly (in black-and-white) inform you of the risks of a dyno tune, protect themselves from poor-quality, or give you fair warning of an "automatic-settlement-payment."
(this is where they say "if your car blows up, corporate policy is to pay you $1,500.00 no questions asked and you hereby waive your right to sue.")
The key to winning this:
-2nd opinion (not on the interwebs. go to another performance tuning shop.)
-allowing them to fix the situation (if this winds up in court, their defense will be: "he didnt let us fix it. the other shop charged him too much expecting to get the money from us to fix it.)
-evidence (if applicable) of the properly running car before they touched it. you said you re-loaded someone else's tune, do you have a video of it after you were done building it with this other tune?
I've seen problems like this go to the courts before. The trick is doing your homework. You have to explain internal combustion engines to a "lay-man" of a judge, bring in evidence of a properly (and im-properly) running car before and after the shop took it, and you have to have expert witnesses to prove BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT it was the shop's fault...
Thats teh key to winning*
the key to getting the most money is to allow the shop to try and fix the problem (bring them reciepts of the cost and have them pay you, or simply fix the car to the point where it was running before you brought it in.)
wow, sounds tasty lol. yeah i thought so, i was just checking...
oh i see. i guess i was more meaning like the lean-ish a/f cause the detonation, not like melting pistons etc...hmm, well timing was like only 14°
yeah he wanted me to bring my motor in for him to look at, which i thought was cool of him to offer. but he said to bring it in on a saturday, and i almost don't feel it's worth wasting a sat afternoon. he's not gonna pay up regardless...
MustangChris:
wow, lot of good advice there. i guess it would probably be worth getting a lawyer and skipping the small claims court thing. also, the motor is probably being sent off to MMR(very credible). i figured they could give me a sort of written statement as probable cause of failure and total to repair, even though i have an idea on price already...i could just about kick myself for not getting a video of it running with the smoke and all that. thanks a ton for all the advice though!!!
and yeah, i was planning on new heads for sure. i don't really even care if they could be totally cleaned up and resurfaced and pressure checked and whatever. for the piece of mind i'd rather just have them replaced.
wow, lot of good advice there. i guess it would probably be worth getting a lawyer and skipping the small claims court thing. also, the motor is probably being sent off to MMR(very credible). i figured they could give me a sort of written statement as probable cause of failure and total to repair, even though i have an idea on price already...i could just about kick myself for not getting a video of it running with the smoke and all that. thanks a ton for all the advice though!!!
and yeah, i was planning on new heads for sure. i don't really even care if they could be totally cleaned up and resurfaced and pressure checked and whatever. for the piece of mind i'd rather just have them replaced.
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just because they said it only had 14degrees of timing in it, that doesnt mean it did... also, 14degrees of timing WHERE?? peak HP, peak TQ, across the board?? If i have a KB/Whipple car that makes 17psi, i might only run 10degrees of timing at peak TQ and 14 up top... depends on what the motor likes and what i "HEAR" the motor telling me..
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