Matrix Subframe Connectors

[Crackerballer]

All, going from a 2002 Honda S2000 to a 2004 Cobra vert, you can imagine how much heavier 1,000 pounds feels with a squishy unibody. I have been doing my research and I know a lot of suspension and weight reduction is in my future.

Having said all of that, I know one of my first mods should be a quality set of matrix subframe connectors. I have found:

Kenny Brown $350
Extreme Matrix Subframe System | Shop Kenny Brown

Global West Suspensions $407
Competition Subframe Connectors for Convertible

Hans Racecraft $450
Hans Racecraft - Ford Mustang Subframe Connectors Convertible

Are they all basically the same? My assumption is yes, and that the install is more important than anything. I would love to order the Kenny Brown's, as they have $10 shipping right now too, saving me over $80. Looking for direct feedback from those of you have one brand and know about the others. Thanks so much.

*EDIT: I do plan on autocrossing and hopefully some open track days once the car is ready.

 

[RDJ]

When I was doing mine I wanted the Maximum Motorsports FLSFCs so I had a matrix brace custom built that didn't cost as much as the others. Pics are in my sig

 

[Crackerballer]

Thanks RDJ, I don't mind paying the money, but $360 shipped for the KBs versus $475 for the Hans does matter if they are just as good as each other.

 

[cobracide]

Unless you plan on maybe autocrossing/racing, don't see an advantage of matrix subframes on a street car. There are other pieces to add elsewhere with standard subframes that will help everywhere and should give a more solid overall platform than just matrix subframes. Examples of this would be an MM four point k-member brace and strut tower brace.

 

[Crackerballer]

Sorry should have mentioned, I absolutely plan on autocrossing and hopefully hitting VIR once I get a compliant roll bar in. I am addressing suspension now, and then cooling once April hits

 

[cobracide]

Sorry should have mentioned, I absolutely plan on autocrossing and hopefully hitting VIR once I get a compliant roll bar in. I am addressing suspension now, and then cooling once April hits

Got ya, full matrix - way to go hardcore. You should still consider adding the MM support pieces mentioned in addition to the matrix brace.

 

[Crackerballer]

Oh I absolutely will be adding other pieces, I know SFCs are one of the best mods no matter what you are doing with the car. I am planning on KW V3s, front and rear STBs, although I doubt I find a STB to clear my JLT, but I can always slap the STB on and take the JLT off for track days.

 

[cobracide]

If you get the whipple/kb MM brace it, the JLT will fit!

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...47-jlt-rai-strut-tower-brace.html#post9932753

2003-04 Mustang Cobra (Kenne-Bell or Whipple SC) Strut Tower Brace [MMSTB-8] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

 

[Crackerballer]

If you get the whipple/kb MM brace it, the JLT will fit!

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...47-jlt-rai-strut-tower-brace.html#post9932753

2003-04 Mustang Cobra (Kenne-Bell or Whipple SC) Strut Tower Brace [MMSTB-8] : Maximum Motorsports, the Latemodel Mustang Performance Suspension Leader!

Ordering it tonight. Thank you sir.

 

[Crackerballer]

Also, it seems there is no 4 point K member brace for the verts. According to MM, all Mustangs from 94-04 came with a 2 point k-member brace.

 

[Fastlane Cobra]

What are your plans for the rear suspension?

 

[cobracide]

Also, it seems there is no 4 point K member brace for the verts. According to MM, all Mustangs from 94-04 came with a 2 point k-member brace.

Sorry about that, I was recalling from memory and looking for my hardtop. The MM two point is much beefier.

 

[Taz]

All, going from a 2002 Honda S2000 to a 2004 Cobra vert, you can imagine how much heavier 1,000 pounds feels with a squishy unibody. I have been doing my research and I know a lot of suspension and weight reduction is in my future.

Having said all of that, I know one of my first mods should be a quality set of matrix subframe connectors. I have found:

Kenny Brown $350
Extreme Matrix Subframe System | Shop Kenny Brown

Global West Suspensions $407
Competition Subframe Connectors for Convertible

Hans Racecraft $450
Hans Racecraft - Ford Mustang Subframe Connectors Convertible

Are they all basically the same? My assumption is yes, and that the install is more important than anything. I would love to order the Kenny Brown's, as they have $10 shipping right now too, saving me over $80. Looking for direct feedback from those of you have one brand and know about the others. Thanks so much.

*EDIT: I do plan on autocrossing and hopefully some open track days once the car is ready.

The KBP Matrix system was one of my very first mods, and it has served me very well. It reinforced my car's unibody chassis so well that the car actually felt undersprung and underdamped with the OEM springs and dampers after the Matrix installation. This was due to the entire chassis finally moving in unison, rather than each corner indepentently doing its own thing.

One improvement any Matrix system offers over regular SFC's is that it can and will increase the torsional rigidity of the chassis. Standard SFC's will improve longitudinal rigidity and reduce flexing front-to-back, but they cannot reduce torsional flex.

As I said, mine is the Kenny Brown setup, and I know nothing about the other two brands you mentioned aside from the fact that they will add considerably more weight to your car than the KBP pieces will. If you're into the twisties, this may be a consideration for you.

:thumbsup:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

^A little too much marketing jargon there.

The pinch rail (matrix) braces don't do much over standard SFCs. I don't cosider them worth the extra weight. If you want the best option, through the floor subframe connectors are what will stiffen the car the most. You will lose some back seat footwell room, and will need to remove your seats and carpet to install them.

Here is a DIY so you can see the basic process.

http://forums.corral.net/forums/general-mustang-tech/560341-diy-through-floor-subframes.html

Griggs and Wolfe have a kit, or you can easily make your own.

Wolfe kit is here:

http://www.wolferacecraft.com/detail.aspx?ID=293

 

[Taz]

^A little too much marketing jargon there.

The pinch rail (matrix) braces don't do much over standard SFCs. If you want the best option through the floor subframe connectors are what will stiffen the car the most.

Griggs has a kit, or you can easily make your own.

"Marketing?" I'm not selling anything.

OP asked, and I offered my personal experiences and observations. Before buying a chassis matrix, I built a model of one and confirmed for myself that it did, indeed, improve torsional rigidity.

A through-the-floor setup would be wonderful for a dedicated racecar, but strikes me as a bit over the top for a street car, as it invades the floor pan something awful. But - hey - that's just my opinion.

:thumbsup:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

"Marketing?" I'm not selling anything.

OP asked, and I offered my personal experiences and observations. Before buying a chassis matrix, I built a model of one and confirmed for myself that it did, indeed, improve torsional rigidity.

A through-the-floor setup would be wonderful for a dedicated racecar, but strikes me as a bit over the top for a street car, as it invades the floor pan something awful. But - hey - that's just my opinion.

:thumbsup:

I understand you aren't selling anything, but the car was underdamped and under sprung from the factory, adding subframe connectors didn't change that. From my experience the matrix connectors are not worth the extra weight and definately not the extra cost.

 

[Taz]

I understand you aren't selling anything, but the car was underdamped and under sprung from the factory, adding subframe connectors didn't change that. From my experience the matrix connectors are not worth the extra weight and definately not the extra cost.

I'm reluctant to hijack this thread to discuss this issue with you, but WHERE did I say the car WASN'T underdamped and undersprung from the factory. Adding the matrix only made it apparent by forcing the chassis to move as a unit.

And just what is YOUR experience??? What sort of simulations have you run?

Did you run it up in AutoCAD? I did.

Did you build a model? I did.

Did you actually install a KBP matrix and experience the before and after difference firsthand? I did.

What empirical data have you collected? Do you even know the total weight of the KBP matrix?

As I said, you and I are already mucking up this guy's thread. If you want to discuss this further, start your own thread.

:loser:

 

[LargeOrangeFont]

I'm reluctant to hijack this thread to discuss this issue with you, but WHERE did I say the car WASN'T underdamped and undersprung from the factory. Adding the matrix only made it apparent by forcing the chassis to move as a unit.

And just what is YOUR experience??? What sort of simulations have you run?

Did you run it up in AutoCAD? I did.

Did you build a model? I did.

Did you actually install a KBP matrix and experience the before and after difference firsthand? I did.

What empirical data have you collected? Do you even know the total weight of the KBP matrix?

As I said, you and I are already mucking up this guy's thread. If you want to discuss this further, start your own thread.

:loser:

By saying the the car was underdamped after the installation implies that is was not underdamped before the installation. I know this is semantics, but I am just saying.

I did actual real world simulations.. in multiple cars that were nearly identical on a roadcourse. Matrix and regular subframes feel about the same, Through the floor units feel noticeably better.

And yes I've done models.. you aren't the only engineer in the world. I see the point of the matrix style connector, but for the extra cost and weight, I dont see any benefit of welding extra tubing to non critical areas for a marginal impercieved benefit in rigidity. If The OP is going to put in a roll bar as state above, he would be better served spending the extra cash to have the roll bar tied into regular subframe connectors. There is a reason very few people run matrix subframes on their road race mustangs.

If I was going to to a matrix subframe connector, it would be global west. FWIW I have MM full length subframe connectors on my car.
The fact that the OP is going to have a roll bar in the car that will render his rear seats useless anyway, makes him an even better candidate for through the floor subframe connectors which are lighter and more effective than a matrix setup.

Here is another great thread on the Griggs World Challenge setup, and another DIY setup. This is the thread I was looking for originally. If done right it only impedes rear footwell space. This would be perfect for the OP's vert.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum.../670834-griggs-world-challenge-frame-kit.html

 

[SlowSVT]

..............AutoCAD! :dw:

Ashley has it right.

The fact he has a convertible makes having stout sub-frames even more critical then on a coup.......no MM FLSFC here :nono:......better yet add a roll cage to brace the upper structure but that can actually make the car unsafe if the occupants are not wearing helmets all the time. The thru the floor mounts will be a pain and will restrict leg movement and don't forget none of these sub-frames will do too much for tensional loads on the chassis. Take off your fenders exposing the fender aprons and look how flimsy the front clip is attached to the firewall Those HD subs will prevent the car from getting torn in half in a bad accident (I've see it happen in SN95 verts).

Any of those subs you chose will work well despite the flaws elsewhere in the chassis (and there are a lot :nonono . I have the Hans and really like the trellis bracing which the Global West lacks and is braced more then the KB. I do like the inner seat mount extension on the KB matrix but for me the Han's Racecraft is the one to go with.

If you know a good fabricator and want to save yourself some weight fabricate a set out of thinner walled chromolly steel (4130) but I would fashion them similar to the Han's. Weld them "weight-on-the-wheels" or your doors won't close.

 

[Crackerballer]

Guys, no need to start a pissing match over SFCs. I have done the reading and research, and I know I want a matrix setup. Not full lengths, not through the floor, and certainly not a cage (right now).

With that being said, I am not sure as to the availability of a good fabricator in my area. So from what I am reading from everyone above, all are very good products. Sounds like the Hans are slightly better than the KB, but overall a set can be fabricated to be EVEN better and even lighter.

I will do some research on fabricators in the area and then decide. I appreciate the feedback and welcome more. Also, thanks SlowSVT, good to know they need to be welded wheels on the ground. I guess someone would do this in a "pit" still bay that allows you to walk under the car with it on the ground? Time to start calling around to see who can make, or at least install, a set of matrix subframe connects for me.

More thoughts?