little disappointed with my HP numbers

[K2AHollywood]

You are on the verge of bashing. We want feedback on vendors but you need to watch how you word things.

I personally appreciate your moderation skills and fairness - but I dont see how this is close to bashing yet. Also I think its hilarious that MMR has recently created threads to sells us stuff in this forum and have yet to join this conversation.....

 

[STAMPEDE3]

I personally appreciate your moderation skills and fairness - but I dont see how this is close to bashing yet. Also I think its hilarious that MMR has recently created threads to sells us stuff in this forum and have yet to join this conversation.....

While I wish they would come in here also this is what I was refering to being on the verge of bashing.

im pretty sure MMR lied about my compression ratio

While I shouldn't have to, I do like to explain myself and actions when it comes to threads like this.

Basicly I was telling him to just watch how you word things.
He still should have contacted them before starting this.

 

[K2AHollywood]

While I wish they would come in here also this is what I was refering to being on the verge of bashing.

While I shouldn't have to, I do like to explain myself and actions when it comes to threads like this.

Basicly I was telling him to just watch how you word things.
He still should have contacted them before starting this.

Yeah for sure. Ps your totally boss (hope you like the mustang throw-back involved in that ;] ) :beer:

 

[Modular Racing]

Firstly our apologies for not seeing this post sooner, unfortunately we are very busy and do not have the chance to be online searching for posts all day.

trxcobra: Firstly you should have called us if you felt you had any kind of problem, we are always here to help. Shooting first and asking questions later doesnt work well with most companies!

Secondly: Your compression ratio is exactly as you ordered it,we have no reason to lie about a compression ratio LOL, we are Manley's largest Modular piston dealer in the world, we have every imaginable ratio in stock, what you ask for is what you get.

Thirdly: You asked for a cam to be degreed against not only our recomendation but also against comps recomendation, if you have to move a cam 2-3 degrees advanced or retarded it is the wrong cam. This cam was chosen by you and degreed to your specs even though we suggested against it.

Lastly: There are so many factors that weigh upon how much power a engine will make, but to come out and say the shortblock MMR built you is the problem , and that we lied to you simply because your engine is not making the power YOU felt it should is just plain silly and jumping to conclusion.

We are here to help but please dont shoot first and ask questions later, there is too much of this on the internet today!

MMR

 

[Modular Racing]

Also, the guys here have given some good recomendations of things to look for and change, the 2 1/4 exhaust tubing is not good and a large restriction, there is a reason that 2005 + vehicles come std with 2.5 " tubing and they only make 260 to the rear wheels! The air fuel ratio is also not where we would run a HIGH HP n/a motor either, this engine should be in the 12 A/F range. And a question for you, was timing added until the engine pinged, if not, you will never know if this engine has/had enough timing (as a FYI this practice should NEVER be done with a forced induction application).

Remember, you cant expect an engine to make more power if you cant get more air into it and out of it, everything else in between is just a waste of time if one end or both are a restriction- a great example of this is take a 1000HP n/a motor and add a 76mm Turbo that can support up to 1000HP- guess what- it wont make even 1 HP more peak HP with the turbo- FACT!



MMR

 

[Brutal Metal]

nasvt MMR has challenged and said your cam degree specs shouldn't have been used, and he said Comp felt it was wrong too? I think a response is in order??

 

[Modular Racing]

nasvt MMR has challenged and said your cam degree specs shouldn't have been used, and he said Comp felt it was wrong too? I think a response is in order??

If Comp Cams felt that it was best to install them that way the advance or retard would have been ground into the cam rather than moving the cam outside the specs of the cam card, so it is not us that has challenged anything, it is the way the cam was designed and MMR agrees with their specs and cam positioning/degreeing for this particular part #. If he has a dyno sheet showing that a comp 106400 made more power with his degreeing specs vs the recommended opening/closing specs on the Comp cam card we would be happy to revisit this topic. Since however the post is about not making the power he wanted it would be natural to question the current cam position, not the one that was recommended by MMR and Comp.

Lets not turn this into a silly argument.

 

[Brutal Metal]

I wasn't in any way trying to bash you guys at MMR, I was just hoping nasvt would chime in cause he was the one that told the OP the specs to use, not looking for an arguement just a postive resolution.. I'm sure he has a 400rwhp motor there it just needs to be dialed in correctly..

 

[Torch10th]

From viewing the graph I'm definitely leaning towards intake side.

This is what pontiac guys see with large cube, smog headed cars. Regardless of what you do pre or post head you reach maximum air velocity and the engine won't make any more power.

I'd be interested to see what was done with the intake and the heads.

I'm assuming OP has a good air intake like JLT installed, over going with a large MAF in the factory intake tubing.

 

[Modular Racing]

I wasn't in any way trying to bash you guys at MMR, I was just hoping nasvt would chime in cause he was the one that told the OP the specs to use, not looking for an arguement just a postive resolution.. I'm sure he has a 400rwhp motor there it just needs to be dialed in correctly..

Agreed and no harm done! This thread should have been titled "making less HP than I thought I would make...any ideas" but the original poster took a clear blaming at MMR which is just not fair and frustrating!

Brutal Metal, Please let us know if we can ever help with anything! :beer:

 

[goat-ee]

I have been known to hammer MMR myself on another subject, but in this case the OP is way out of line!!! Basically you have NOTHING to back up your doubts about MMR being responsible for your low numbers!!!

If I were MMR and you had done this to me with no justification whatsoever, I would be done with you!!! Don't call, don't email, don't text...your on your own...if and when you figure it out and IF I am responsible I would then begrudgingly take care of it!!!

Get with the tuner and get the datalogs and post them here. My guess is you have a problem elsewhere, which a good tuner should be able to spot or at least give some suggestions as to some possibilities!! And just remember not all tuners are created equal. I myself was completely unhappy with my original tune from a local tuner. LaSota Racing was able to do more online with the 1st set of datalogs than the local guy did with 7-8 dyno runs!! More (experienced) sets of eyes might be able to help, bottomline...don't dog MMR and then when asked for some info, go straight to the I am too busy.

 

[Modular Racing]

I have been known to hammer MMR myself on another subject, but in this case the OP is way out of line!!! Basically you have NOTHING to back up your doubts about MMR being responsible for your low numbers!!!

If I were MMR and you had done this to me with no justification whatsoever, I would be done with you!!! Don't call, don't email, don't text...your on your own...if and when you figure it out and IF I am responsible I would then begrudgingly take care of it!!!

Get with the tuner and get the datalogs and post them here. My guess is you have a problem elsewhere, which a good tuner should be able to spot or at least give some suggestions as to some possibilities!! And just remember not all tuners are created equal. I myself was completely unhappy with my original tune from a local tuner. LaSota Racing was able to do more online with the 1st set of datalogs than the local guy did with 7-8 dyno runs!! More (experienced) sets of eyes might be able to help, bottomline...don't dog MMR and then when asked for some info, go straight to the I am too busy.

Thank you Goat-ee, and not because you are taking our side but because you see the problem he is having for what it is, we appreciate that, we may not always see eye to eye but there is a right way and a wrong way of handling things and this was not one of them.

take care

 

[trxcobra]

Firstly our apologies for not seeing this post sooner, unfortunately we are very busy and do not have the chance to be online searching for posts all day.

trxcobra: Firstly you should have called us if you felt you had any kind of problem, we are always here to help. Shooting first and asking questions later doesnt work well with most companies!

Secondly: Your compression ratio is exactly as you ordered it,we have no reason to lie about a compression ratio LOL, we are Manley's largest Modular piston dealer in the world, we have every imaginable ratio in stock, what you ask for is what you get.

Thirdly: You asked for a cam to be degreed against not only our recomendation but also against comps recomendation, if you have to move a cam 2-3 degrees advanced or retarded it is the wrong cam. This cam was chosen by you and degreed to your specs even though we suggested against it.

Lastly: There are so many factors that weigh upon how much power a engine will make, but to come out and say the shortblock MMR built you is the problem , and that we lied to you simply because your engine is not making the power YOU felt it should is just plain silly and jumping to conclusion.

We are here to help but please dont shoot first and ask questions later, there is too much of this on the internet today!

MMR

Sorry this has been a very busy week I moved back into college and have been trying to get settled here. havent had much time for anything else.


First off i do apologize for the way i titled this thread. I did not mean for it to sound as if someone else built me the engine it would be making more power.. I've seen many people on this site bash MMR and turn many members away from you guys from horror stories that they overheard about. Instead, I chose to give you guys a chance because you are all very nice to deal with over the phone and I picked you to buy an $8000 engine from. I have made it clear that the car runs great and still flies, you guys definately built a strong engine.

I've read from many sources, not just na svt that the way i had the cams installed was the best route to take. I did not see any dyno sheets proving this but I chose to listen anyways.

The car did not ping on the dyno but the tuner kept adding timing until the engine stopped getting any real gains in hp. Not trying to accuse you of lying but i dont see how an 11.5:1 compression engine could be running the same amount of timing my tuner has run in stock compression cobras. He is a very smart guy and he told me he doesnt see any way that the car is running 11.5:1.

nasvt MMR has challenged and said your cam degree specs shouldn't have been used, and he said Comp felt it was wrong too? I think a response is in order??

From viewing the graph I'm definitely leaning towards intake side.

This is what pontiac guys see with large cube, smog headed cars. Regardless of what you do pre or post head you reach maximum air velocity and the engine won't make any more power.

I'd be interested to see what was done with the intake and the heads.

I'm assuming OP has a good air intake like JLT installed, over going with a large MAF in the factory intake tubing.

The heads have MMR's stage 3 porting done to them. I'm not 100% sure what that consists of but I'm sure they could explain better.

I have a jlt cai and lightning MAF

 

[Torch10th]

Of note on the compression, the engine very well make 11.5:1 static compression ratio. However depending on how the cams are setup and where they are degreed at, the dynamic compression may actually be less.

This is a pretty common practice to get a high compression motor to live on pump gas. You get around all that static compression by bleeding pressure in the cylinder through having the intake and exhaust ports open slightly during compression and power strokes. Although I've never really got a grasp on the specifics of how it's done.

However that's an interesting piece of information given what your engine is doing. If say, during your intake stroke you've got your exhaust valves open a bit, this would limit the amount of air you'd be pulling from the intake side which is where your combustible oxygen is coming from.

This could account for your static airflow you see through the MAF at 5500 rpm.

Anybody comment on that?

 

[Modular Racing]

Apology accepted and we are happy to help you find the little bit of lost HP, there are a few ponies to be found here and there (exhaust system, cam degree etc) which will add up to 20-25HP very quickly! You may also want another tuner to take a look.

To clarify a few other things:

I've seen many people on this site bash MMR and turn many members away from you guys from horror stories that they overheard about. Instead, I chose to give you guys a chance because you are all very nice to deal with over the phone and I picked you to buy an $8000 engine from. I have made it clear that the car runs great and still flies, you guys definately built a strong engine.

These horror stories that they "overheard" get started the same way this one did, and since we cant get involved in every post that someone makes all over the internet all we can tell you that there are ALWAYS 2 sides to a story! Dont believe the "horror stories" as you put it. MMR stands behind EVERYTHING we sell, we havent been in this business longer than ALL of our competitors from doing a poor job, we also dont have 4 of the 6 quickest Modular Cars in the country by not knowing what we are doing, granted, we are human and make mistakes but we are always there to make things right and this is why we have a A+ rating with the Better Business Bureau.

Again, apology accepted, we would apreciate you asking the moderators to "fix" the title of this thread to something more realistic like "my HP#'s seem low.. any suggestions" and we and the other members here will all work with you
to find your lost HP in the meantime, either way you are not far off!

Good luck!

MMR Management

 

[na svt]

Making good n/a power is not easy and requires everything to be right, a/f, timing, matching of parts, etc. If something is off a little the power can suffer greatly. On the other hand, making big power with FI is easy; just increase the boost.

nasvt, MMR has challenged and said your cam degree specs shouldn't have been used, and he said Comp felt it was wrong too? I think a response is in order??

To each their own and Comp doesn't specialize in mod motors. All I can say is that everytime I've run the 106400s per the cam card (or similiar duration cams) they made less hp/tq than after the intake cams were advanced to 108. In fact, in this combo they could have been advanced even further because it's a proven fact that whenever you add cubic inches to an existing or similar combo while making no other changes, the LSA must be tightened and the intake LC advanced. So, if 108/114 works best in a 281ci engine, 106/114 would work even better. Furthermore, the install specs I recommended were based upon a combo with a 5.5" runner intake, but these specs will work great with the longer runner intake also...it should not peak at 5500 despite the 108 intake LC and the 10" runner intake. I've put these same cams in big bore/strokers with the same intake and the peak occurred in the mid 6k range...the smaller cube stroker should peak at a higher RPM. Hell, a BB/Stroker with 234 deg intake cams at these LCs and a Sullivan peaks at 7250, in a stroker and a 5" intake the power would be a few hundred higher.

Of note on the compression, the engine very well make 11.5:1 static compression ratio. However depending on how the cams are setup and where they are degreed at, the dynamic compression may actually be less..

an intake LC of 108 would result in a higher dynamic CR than with the intake cams installed 112 per the cam card

You get around all that static compression by bleeding pressure in the cylinder through having the intake and exhaust ports open slightly during compression and power strokes...

However that's an interesting piece of information given what your engine is doing. If say, during your intake stroke you've got your exhaust valves open a bit, this would limit the amount of air you'd be pulling from the intake side which is where your combustible oxygen is coming from.

The dynamic CR is reduced by delaying the closing of the intake valve. Conversely, advancing the intake cams closes the intake valve sooner after BDC and thereby increases dynamic CR. At no point are both valves open during the power stroke.

It is very important to make the most of the first half of the intake stroke on a low rpm engine because it's very hard to make it up in the seond half of the stroke. This requires the intake valve to be open a good amount and also some overlap (intake and exhaust valves open at the same time). The overlap at the beginning of the intake stroke increases cylinder filling because escaping exhaust gases pull in the a/f mixture. However, increase the overlap period too much, especially with a 4 valve engine, and the a/f flows right out the exhaust. I know that this isn't a problem due to the low MAF counts. Given the same heads/valves, a stroker would need more overlap than a 281ci engine, hence the reason for a tighter LSA and lower intake LC.

The car did not ping on the dyno but the tuner kept adding timing until the engine stopped getting any real gains in hp. Not trying to accuse you of lying but i dont see how an 11.5:1 compression engine could be running the same amount of timing my tuner has run in stock compression cobras.

Your tuner is very "safe", I ran 28 degrees in my 11:1 engine and routinely have the tuner dial in at least that in stock engines running 93 octane. Is it pulling timing at 5500? My combo was unported Bheads, 281ci, flat tops, heads cut .020, 222 deg cams at 111, short runner and it made over 350rwhp and peaked at 6550.

Thirdly: You asked for a cam to be degreed against not only our recomendation but also against comps recomendation, if you have to move a cam 2-3 degrees advanced or retarded it is the wrong cam. This cam was chosen by you and degreed to your specs even though we suggested against it.

You are correct, it was the wrong cam set but it was made "right" by installing them at an LSA and advance that is known to work.

Lastly: There are so many factors that weigh upon how much power a engine will make, but to come out and say the shortblock MMR built you is the problem , and that we lied to you simply because your engine is not making the power YOU felt it should is just plain silly and jumping to conclusion. MMR

I can't agree more. There is more to this than the stuff between the oil pan and the intake.

Possible causes are:
- timing is being pulled
- intake air restriction --check from the air filter to the TB, is the TB opening all the way?
- exhaust restriction
- cam timing--do a compression check
- lash adjuster preload incorrect
- injectors

 

[gmsux]

OP, it's good to address approaching your concern as MMR stated, you'll always get better results being objective about your concern minus blame, think the opposite of Obama. Sorry, had tho throw politics in there for a moment.

I personally don't feel the cam timing is the problem. I believe it lies in the airflow before/after the engine and in the tune. This could be the intake (I had a naz intake that cracked and when I opened it up to fix it, I saw the inside was ROUGH!) or exhaust. I have a 10.52cr 5.0 BB and run 25 degrees timing starting at 4k rpm. Datalogging to ensure all the timing is coming in is essential. Are the knock sensors turned off? They will get angry in a forged motor and pull 6 degrees right away and about 5k is where I saw the knock sensor voltage go crazy. I turned mine off. The cams I have are a little less agressive than yours but installed 109/115 and peak HP is 7K and flat to nearly 7800. With cams installed like that the injector delay value needs to be changed to match, not doing this costs power. I've worked the tune I have for several weeks with my SCT pro racer software and Zeitronix WB provided by LaSota. I can tell you first hand there is no way a tuner can dial everything in in a few dyno pulls with as many changes as you've made unless the tuner is the caliber of LaSota or Eric brooks. I could be wrong but this is where I would start having just gone through a more work than expected and a new fuel system to support my N/A BB. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[98 Saleen Cobra]

To the OP. I've read this entire thread for one and I think one thing that people might be for getting is the NAZ intake. I've read these intakes crack just as GMSUX has said. I would pull that intake off and see what it looks like. If it is cracked then that might be a problem right there. maybe try a stock intake and see what happens?? Or try one of NASVT intakes to see what happens. Just saying man. I hope that it all works out for you either way.

 

[cobra916]

OP, it's good to address approaching your concern as MMR stated, you'll always get better results being objective about your concern minus blame, think the opposite of Obama. Sorry, had tho throw politics in there for a moment.

I personally don't feel the cam timing is the problem. I believe it lies in the airflow before/after the engine and in the tune. This could be the intake (I had a naz intake that cracked and when I opened it up to fix it, I saw the inside was ROUGH!) or exhaust. I have a 10.52cr 5.0 BB and run 25 degrees timing starting at 4k rpm. Datalogging to ensure all the timing is coming in is essential. Are the knock sensors turned off? They will get angry in a forged motor and pull 6 degrees right away and about 5k is where I saw the knock sensor voltage go crazy. I turned mine off. The cams I have are a little less agressive than yours but installed 109/115 and peak HP is 7K and flat to nearly 7800. With cams installed like that the injector delay value needs to be changed to match, not doing this costs power. I've worked the tune I have for several weeks with my SCT pro racer software and Zeitronix WB provided by LaSota. I can tell you first hand there is no way a tuner can dial everything in in a few dyno pulls with as many changes as you've made unless the tuner is the caliber of LaSota or Eric brooks. I could be wrong but this is where I would start having just gone through a more work than expected and a new fuel system to support my N/A BB. Good luck and keep us posted.

+1 listen to gmsux

 

[trxcobra]

To the OP. I've read this entire thread for one and I think one thing that people might be for getting is the NAZ intake. I've read these intakes crack just as GMSUX has said. I would pull that intake off and see what it looks like. If it is cracked then that might be a problem right there. maybe try a stock intake and see what happens?? Or try one of NASVT intakes to see what happens. Just saying man. I hope that it all works out for you either way.

I bought the intake with a crack in it already and had it fixed so that is not the problem. I was thinking about selling it and getting a 5.5" PSR from na svt but ill wait for the winter time for that.

OP, it's good to address approaching your concern as MMR stated, you'll always get better results being objective about your concern minus blame, think the opposite of Obama. Sorry, had tho throw politics in there for a moment.

I personally don't feel the cam timing is the problem. I believe it lies in the airflow before/after the engine and in the tune. This could be the intake (I had a naz intake that cracked and when I opened it up to fix it, I saw the inside was ROUGH!) or exhaust. I have a 10.52cr 5.0 BB and run 25 degrees timing starting at 4k rpm. Datalogging to ensure all the timing is coming in is essential. Are the knock sensors turned off? They will get angry in a forged motor and pull 6 degrees right away and about 5k is where I saw the knock sensor voltage go crazy. I turned mine off. The cams I have are a little less agressive than yours but installed 109/115 and peak HP is 7K and flat to nearly 7800. With cams installed like that the injector delay value needs to be changed to match, not doing this costs power. I've worked the tune I have for several weeks with my SCT pro racer software and Zeitronix WB provided by LaSota. I can tell you first hand there is no way a tuner can dial everything in in a few dyno pulls with as many changes as you've made unless the tuner is the caliber of LaSota or Eric brooks. I could be wrong but this is where I would start having just gone through a more work than expected and a new fuel system to support my N/A BB. Good luck and keep us posted.

Yes i pulled the knock sensors. I think the exhaust and intake are definately having an effect on my setup. It sucks being away at school now and not being able to see the car unless i go home on weekends!


Thanks to MMR for being so understanding