KB 1.7l for a 99/01 Cobra?

[Snake Eyes]

What's up man. I am just going what I have been told by Kenne Bell (ask them if you wish), and what common since tells me. Yes it has been done just not by at least one person (not on the boards) according to KB... Further more the twin screw blower seals very well and doesn't lose boost easily (especially at low boost pressures). If it is ok to use a 2.2L on a stock 2V GT motor why wouldn't our motor be able to handle it (at the proper boost levels). The 2.2 is only 30% larger and 1.7 is about maxed out at 9psi (that is a lot of air cause our heads flow very well) so you would not be spinning the 2.2 that slow.

Believe me I talked to Ken and Victor about this at length because I was going to do it until I heard how many problems you guys had with your kits. I was even thinking of doing the 2.2L non-intercooler then upgrading later on. They both assured me the 2.2 would be perfectly fine as long as I stayed under 9psi (8 - 8.5 actually because I cant easily get better than 91 octane in the Midwest).

Not trying to start an argument here just telling you guys what I was told by KB.

 

[Taz]

What's up man. I am just going what I have been told by Kenne Bell (ask them if you wish), and what common since tells me. Yes it has been done just not by at least one person (not on the boards) according to KB... Further more the twin screw blower seals very well and doesn't lose boost easily (especially at low boost pressures). If it is ok to use a 2.2L on a stock 2V GT motor why wouldn't our motor be able to handle it (at the proper boost levels). The 2.2 is only 30% larger and 1.7 is about maxed out at 9psi (that is a lot of air cause our heads flow very well) so you would not be spinning the 2.2 that slow.

Believe me I talked to Ken and Victor about this at length because I was going to do it until I heard how many problems you guys had with your kits. I was even thinking of doing the 2.2L non-intercooler then upgrading later on. They both assured me the 2.2 would be perfectly fine as long as I stayed under 9psi (8 - 8.5 actually because I cant easily get better than 91 octane in the Midwest).

Not trying to start an argument here just telling you guys what I was told by KB.

Kyle, what’s with this absolute nonsense? What the hell have you been smoking?

I’ve spoken with both Ken Christley and Brent Morris at KB, and I’ll bet either one of them will tell you the same thing I’m saying – that throwing a 2.2L screw at a stock block 4.6L – be it a 2V or 4V – is a risky proposition. Considering my conversations with them went entirely differently from the one you recount above, one of us must have had a mini-stroke that resulted in some sort of hallucinogenic episode.

And where was it ever stated, or even implied, that it’s “okay” to bolt a 2.2L onto a stock GT? As you probably know, KB maintains a support forum on another site, and NO ONE there with a GT has done this. Yes, a few with BUILT GT’s have stepped up to 2.2L screws, but no one with stock internals has tried it.

So where are these mythical pioneers who’ve gone where no man has gone before? You say it’s been done, so point me to one person – one single person – who has actually done this. I’d really like to hear his input.

I know how much bigger a 2.2L is than a 1.7L. I can do the math. Now, let’s put that in perspective: if my 4.6L engine were 30% larger it would be a 6-liter. Get the picture? And a 1.7 is about “maxed out” at 9 psi? Don’t even go there. Furthermore, I believe the volume of air you need to pump into the motor to obtain a given boost level is all about combustion chamber volume, not how well your heads flow.

As for compressor boost leakage at low compressor speeds, well that’s a documented phenomenon. Research it if you REALLY care to know what's up.

T-

 

[Double"O"]

The 1.7 can make 13-14 psi without a problem, i am not sure if it can go over 14psi and still be efficient though. mine is making 9.5 psi right now...well not really i haven't drivin the car since May because i am on deployment

 

[Snake Eyes]

Well ZeroSpin had the 2.2L on his car when KB was doing the testing, but I thought he kept it. I just looked and he does have the 1.7 so I was wrong there but he did have it on the car for a little bit and as we all know Lidio ran the 2.2 on that Mach 1 for a while (and it would have been fine if he hadn't gotten greedy). And it is possible that we are both right because I haven't talked to Ken or Victor since the kit was released and they may have changed their story after all the problems you guys went through but when I talked to them they both assured me the 2.2 would be fine. Also let me rephrase 1.7 isn't maxed out and I shouldn't have put it that way. It is nearing the end of it's maximum effective operating range. Yes it is capable of more boost but if you look at the flow numbers that is what I was speaking of. As we all know not all boost is created equal and 13psi on a 4V cobra engine is not the same as 13psi on a 2V GT engine. So yes the 1.7 may be capable of generating a certain psi (on certain engines) but if there is very little resistance it will flow more with less back pressure and therefore less psi. Off topic but I really wish the automotive community would stop measuring boost in psi but rather cfm.

Anyway I am not saying a 2.2L blower is perfectly safe far from it, but neither is the 1.7. Any blower that produces any boost on these engines is risky. The engine (rods and pistons) was simply not designed for a power adder. Can it be done, yes. Can it be done safely, yes. The problem is us. We always want just a little more and end up blowing it up. If you can resist the urge to add just one more psi, tune it just a little better, or add this new mod and be content with the car post blower install and not flog on it constantly, with a little luck you should be able to enjoy the blower on a stock bottom end for quite a long time. Don't and boom. The only thing I was trying to say originally is the 2.2L should be just as safe as the 1.7L at identical boost pressures based on my conversations with the KB techs (they were a year ago), and compressor maps.

PS I have been smoking camaros as of late, how bout you? :thumbsup:

 

[Taz]

...

PS I have been smoking camaros as of late, how bout you? :thumbsup:

So far, everything I've run against. Batmobiles, catfish, C5's, C6's, Syclones, and that silly looking Holden thing that Pontiac calls a GTO, to name a few. But my favorites are the European high-priced spreads, especially those with the prancing horse badges, 'cause I just love the looks of astonishment.

:rolling:

Of course, sometimes you just gotta know when to fold 'em, so I know better than to take on some of the Chevelles around here that are packing pavement-wrinkling 700HP 396's and 800HP elephant motors.

:nono:

Discretion is, after all, the better part of valor.

:-D

T-

 

[Tontate]

:thumbsup: I'd do it exactly the same way if I had to do it all over again.
I'm still giddy 3 months in...

 

[Taz]

Lookin' GOOD, Tony. Nice work.

:thumbsup:

T-

 

[SGL]

:thumbsup: I'd do it exactly the same way if I had to do it all over again.
I'm still giddy 3 months in...

So, you like the kit. I remember we exchanged some words on ModularFords.

 

[SGL]

What I would really like to know is how the intercooled kit behaves in an open track event. My non-intercooled kit just doesn't work in that scenario. It does heat soak and once that happens, there is no other option but to pit and wait for it to cool down. Before I shell out another $2k for the intercooler option I would like some feedback. Anyone?

 

[01trublue cobra]

I'm looking into buying the 1.7 intercooled kit. Can I buy it without the chip and fuel system. I already have 42lb injectors, focus fuel pump, and a SCT MAF sitting in my closet.

 

[SGL]

I'm looking into buying the 1.7 intercooled kit. Can I buy it without the chip and fuel system. I already have 42lb injectors, focus fuel pump, and a SCT MAF sitting in my closet.

I asked a similar question, the answer was.... no.

 

[SpittinCobra01]

good readin in here! now it's finally time to s/c my 01... whats the cheapest place you guys have found for the KB 1.7L/7lb kit with bap/maf/injectors/etc.?

 

[Taz]

good readin in here! now it's finally time to s/c my 01... whats the cheapest place you guys have found for the KB 1.7L/7lb kit with bap/maf/injectors/etc.?

I think we all bought directly from KB. In fact, a few of us were early adopters, who provided "earnest money" deposits to get the '99/'01 kit back into development after KB had shelved it. Back then, we weren't in any position to price shop, because the kit didn't yet exist. But I doubt you'll find an authorized vendor offering very deep discounts, even now - too easy to lose a KB franchise that way.

If you select a 1.7L intercooled kit, it will be delivered complete, including injectors BAP, MAF, etc, not to mention the intercooler. Save yourself some grief and aggravation - buy an intercooled kit. Many who bought non-intercooled kits soon regretted not opting for the I/C.

One part that doesn't come with the KB kit is a stouter fuel pump, but KB has one available as an accessory, and I think it's money well spent. I added the KB # F1050 in-tank pump, which is a direct plug-and-play replacement for the stock pump and is good for up to about 500RWHP. Mine's been working great.

A second good option IMO is the KB/Accufab Big Oval TB. You'll need to decide up front whether or not you're going to want one, because the blower will be delivered with either an intake that will mate with the stock TB or an intake designed for the Big Oval, so swapping TB's later on won't be an easy proposition.

Whatever option(s) you decide on, be sure to list them along with all your other relevant mods on the KB order form for your chip.

Have fun! :thumbsup:

T-

 

[SVTHorsnake]

is 9 psi on a 1.7 different than 9 psi on a 2.2?

 

[Taz]

is 9 psi on a 1.7 different than 9 psi on a 2.2?

The 2.2L wasn't designed to run at the low speeds required to produce such low boost. I don't think anyone has even bothered to try. Why would they?

The screw speed required for a 2.2L to produce 9 psi on a 4.6L motor is well below its recommended operating range, so a 2.2L won't run as efficiently as a 1.7 making 9 psi. For one thing, the 2.2 will be unnecessarily introducing more parasitic drag at any boost level (within the operating range of the 1.7) because of the larger mass you need to spin and the increased volume of air that it's processing on every revolution.

On top of that, because the blower will be turning so slowly, it will tend to leak a larger percentage of that air back out past the screws at low engine RPM. (Everything else being equal, the longer the leakage path, greater the amount of leakage from a Roots or screw type blower.) Unfortunately, if you try to compensate for that low RPM leakage from the 2.2L with a smaller pulley, you're suddenly over 9 psi at higher engine speeds, as soon as the blower begins to gain some efficiency.

For anyone intending to run enough boost to require a bigger blower than the 1.7 - say more than 15 psi, the right approach would be to first forge the motor (and lower the static CR if he has aspirations of running on pump gas). Then, throw a 2.2L at it and pulley it up for the desired boost.

Personally, I think anybody who believes he can throw a 2.2L at a stock New Edge block and make it work at 9 psi while he saves up his shekels for a forged bottom end is in for a reality check in the very near future. But my "educated guess" aside, for those of us with no immediate plans of running more than 9 or 10 psi boost, the 1.7 is right in its sweet spot, so it's the obvious choice for the job. Why would I want to use an 8-lb sledge hammer to set a finishing nail?

T-

 

[SpittinCobra01]

Taz,

thanks for the reply. I was reading along with you guys who put up cash before the kit was built, but then stopped when I didn't have the cash to put up so I'm out of the loop on who was in or not. Now the i/c is the same as the 03/04 i/c right? I'm only asking cause I can pick one up right now for a grand vs 2 k for the kb i/c. would that be a direct bolt up option?

 

[Double"O"]

Taz,

thanks for the reply. I was reading along with you guys who put up cash before the kit was built, but then stopped when I didn't have the cash to put up so I'm out of the loop on who was in or not. Now the i/c is the same as the 03/04 i/c right? I'm only asking cause I can pick one up right now for a grand vs 2 k for the kb i/c. would that be a direct bolt up option?

No the eaton will not be a direct bolt up option, you would need alot of 03/04 Cobra parts. The same ones that come in the KB kit

 

[Taz]

Unless you're really good at fabrication, spend the extra money for the KB I/C kit.

With respect to the actual intercooler and heat exchanger parts of the I/C system, yes those are the same ones that the Terminators use. However, I'm not sure that the bracketing on the heat exchanger is standard. KB may have fitted custom brackets to that part.

The remaining I/C parts are where the real differences lie. The KB reservoir and its bracket are completely different (and much better IMO). Also, the pump is a Johnson Marine pump - I don't know what the Terminators use. Then, there are the electrical components to make the I/C stuff work - solenoid, etc.

On top of that, if you buy a non-intercooled kit, some of the other parts, such as the front cover plate for the discharge manifold, will be different. Buy the kit complete. The headaches involved in a mix-and-match arrangement won't be worth the money you'll save.

T-

 

[SGL]

Taz,

thanks for the reply. I was reading along with you guys who put up cash before the kit was built, but then stopped when I didn't have the cash to put up so I'm out of the loop on who was in or not. Now the i/c is the same as the 03/04 i/c right? I'm only asking cause I can pick one up right now for a grand vs 2 k for the kb i/c. would that be a direct bolt up option?

Spittincobra,

I have the non-intercooled kit and if there is one thing I recommend it would be: don't mess with mix-match with the KB. You will end-up with a lot of headaches and a bunch of parts that are useless. Make the decision up front regarding intercooled or non-intercooled and use only KB parts. As Taz mentionned, get the higher flow pump. Somewhere beyond ~8psi the stock pump/injector is not up to the task, even with the BAP. I have dyno sheets to prove it. I had to retrofit the 03 pump and injectors to get proper fuel flow at 9psi. I am not the only one that experienced this issue.

 

[white99gt]

Kyle, what’s with this absolute nonsense? What the hell have you been smoking?

I’ve spoken with both Ken Christley and Brent Morris at KB, and I’ll bet either one of them will tell you the same thing I’m saying – that throwing a 2.2L screw at a stock block 4.6L – be it a 2V or 4V – is a risky proposition. Considering my conversations with them went entirely differently from the one you recount above, one of us must have had a mini-stroke that resulted in some sort of hallucinogenic episode.

And where was it ever stated, or even implied, that it’s “okay” to bolt a 2.2L onto a stock GT? As you probably know, KB maintains a support forum on another site, and NO ONE there with a GT has done this. Yes, a few with BUILT GT’s have stepped up to 2.2L screws, but no one with stock internals has tried it.


T-

Ive warned many guys just like you said.First why would you even think of a 2.2 on a stock motor.Just a waste of a good motor.

But a built motor witha 2.2 hold on its GREAT..I went from a vortech setup making 621rwhp (18psi) to a KB 2.2 setup (15 psi) ..I love the setup a LOT better.
Gas mileage for me is great 18+ like it was before.

Even though mine is a 2v .I think its awesome kit even though its more expensive.It is well worth the extra money spent.