Well I got a pm about a guy selling everything for the eaton conversion for a whole hell of alot cheaper than the KB, it can meet my power goals do you think I should just go with that?
KB 1.7l for a 99/01 Cobra?
- Thread starter JebTonkin
- Start date
thats one of the main reason I chose a centri car.. I love the higher power numbers and the feel of it making power from nothing. I love the instant power of a roots but a centri met my wants and needs a little better. Not to mention wth 550rwhp I am still making 18mpg averageserpentnoir said:
Yeah but I just want the torque, it's just more fun on the street.
Taz said:
Ahh...were you the guy that said "to each his own" in harsher terms in that thread in the new edge forums because I commented on the nearly 6K price tag for the KB? I never said I had great experience in power adders nor did I say that it was ideal for a street car. I made 1 simple point. If you're going to buy the 1.7; you might as well through down the extra 100.00 for the 2.2. You seem kind of touchy about this subject. I have no bias towards any form of forced induction. I was just giving my .02. You seem defensive. Relax. We're all on the Ford side. ;-)
dfw99cobra said:
No need to get your panties in a wad. I didn't think I was being touchy about this at all (although I do hate bad information and bad recommendations, especially when they could end up unnecessarily costing somebody else a bundle).
I merely asked two questions of you in an effort to determine whether you had a legitimate basis for your recommendation, or if I was merely hearing the hubris of youth and unsubstantiated opinion, because I personally consider that a risky choice.
And what in the world does the type of power adder have to do with recommending a head unit too big for the application? I don't see the connection there. Maybe you need to quit reliving your past confrontations.
But thanks, anyway, for the reply. Your defensiveness has answered my questions. Fact is, you don't have a power adder of any sort on your own car, do you? And I'd wager you've never HAD a power adder of any sort, have you?
So, you think maybe your earlier recommendation could be characterized as talking out your ass? So, you think maybe you should save your advice for something you've got at least a little experience with?
I do.
T-
JebTonkin said:
STOP!
Before you do that, are you sure you understand the ramifications of that decision? Putting an Eaton on the 99/01 cars is a major PITA. It requires a lot more than just the blower and the intake manifold. You need the whole belt drive system plus you have to relocate the alternator near the power steering pump and the timing chain cover must be updated to the 03/04 cover. Ask anyone who has done the conversion: very few recommend doing this. That is the advantage of the KB blower. KB did all the work for you. Plus the 2.2L blower uses the same belt as the accessories (unlike the Eaton) but all the pulleys get updated to 8 rib (that's probably why it's so expensive). You see, KB did a heck of a lot of work on this kit.
Do yourself a favor and ask this guy if he really does have all the parts.
Oops I forgot to mention, you need a way to get more fuel to the motor. Either you spend the money on a 03 pump or you buy a BAP (which incidentally I have for sale). Either way you're looking at an additional $200~300 just for the fuel system.
Last edited by a moderator:
Taz said:
I highly doubt my one little post when result in costing someone else a bundle. I don't think I can ever remember seeing someone making a decision based off of what that "guy said on the boards". However, if I'm wrong I have no problem being corrected.
I could argue your tone in your first response to my post but it's early and I lack the energy. I'm not just another teenage poster on this board. I'm not all that much older and flowing with maturity but I'm not a damn kid either.
*Swallows Pride* I had only read the first couple (3 or 4 posts) when I responded so I hadn't gotten to the part where the original poster said this had to be a street car. Past confrontations? No, I hadn't even thought about that until you responded.
You'll wager I've never had a power adder before? How much? I need beer money for the weekend to continue in my hubris of youth and unsubstantiated opinion (I have no idea what hubris means). Fact is I had nitrous for over a year. One of my best friends (Tiebreaker) has an 04 Cobra that I've driven/raced/etc...
I'm man enough to admit my previous post was uninformed. For his application, the 1.7L is a better choice. However, my error in judgement is not an indication of an overall lack of knowledge. I'm trying to resolve this disagreement without leaving any enemies on the boards. I'm not the type to go around saying "F U" to folks when I disagree. I admitted my mistake, maybe you can admit you were a little quick to jump on me about it.
JebTonkin said:
got it....love it
i made 405RWHP and 366 RWTQ with the 3 3/8ths pulley, then i slapped on the 3 1/8 pulley and made the numbers in my sig.
The install isn' that bad but the work pays off the first time you tip into the throttle and feel instant boost and a really flat TQ curve.
the beast
3 3/8 pulley 7.5 psi indicated dyno graph
Last edited:
dfw99cobra said:
LOL That’s just about the most left-handed retraction I’ve ever read, but hey, no hard feelings. :thumbsup:
Now, take a look at my post count and signup date. Considering what you see there, do you think I would have bothered to question you in the first place if the topic hadn’t been one in which I have both some experience and a personal interest? Not likely. Most of the time, I just sit back and laugh at what I read on SVTP without ever posting a word, because I don’t need the hostile, retaliatory replies that usually follow.
I’d be the first to admit that I do have a hair trigger, and everyone who knows me will agree. (That’s at least partially the reason behind my nickname.) But I don't generally snap until/unless I feel I've been crossed, and my first post to you in this thread consisted of two questions that I didn't believe warranted what seemed a hostile, defensive reply.
On some forums, everyone is expected to be ready to validate whatever he/she says. No second-hand or conjured up notions allowed. And trust me, on any of those forums, SOMEONE would have asked those two questions, and NO ONE would have been expected to take offense. Unfortunately, all sorts of wild conjecture and just plain bad information are frequently accepted as fact here on SVTP without their validity ever being challenged, which is why I read most of these threads primarily for their entertainment value.
See, I don't consider selecting an oversized head unit for a blower installation to be the least bit analogous to “overbuilding” the other parts of a car. I consider it more akin to playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for overbuilding when it isn’t risky business to do so. For instance, I see that you’ve installed a TKO-500 in your car. Nice choice, but I would have been satisfied with nothing less than a TKO-600, specifically a TCET-4617. Why? Added insurance. The TKO-600 is stouter and uses a 26-spline input shaft. As you may have read, I recently bought a pair of DSS Level-5 halfshafts for my car, when I would certainly have been just fine with Level-2’s. Why? Because the L-5’s are stouter, so I paid the extra six bills for the additional insurance. BUT I was more than willing to settle for a KB 1.7 for my car. Why? Because I’ve looked long and hard at the limitations of the stock internals and the operational characteristics of the 2.2, and I’ve concluded that’s an unjustifiably RISKY combination. As far as I'm concerned, the only reasonably safe way to throw a 2.2 at a New Edge Cobra is to first forge the bottom end.
Then, out of nowhere, some kid (sorry, everything’s a matter of perspective) jumps in here and spouts off with a recommendation that I consider just plain WRONG. Forgive me for prying a bit to determine just exactly what he’s basing that on. Sure, I doubt that anybody would be foolish enough to take one individual's opinion and run with it, and if anyone really is that foolish, well, I'm a firm believer in Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. But foolish notions have a way of snowballing, so I thought I'd better ask you for some validation before a dozen similar posts popped up in this thread and turned into the majority - albeit untenable - recommendation. And there ARE those who are inclined to accept as fact any opinion voiced loudly enough, regardless of its merits.
None of us has all the answers, especially me. Even though I was probably wrenching cars (right there in Garland, as a matter of fact) about the same time your daddy was a gleam in your granddaddy’s eye, I've still got more questions than answers. But on this particular topic, I’ve done enough homework to believe I have at least a few of the answers. Of course, I’m always willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, but only when they’ve got some meat on their bones. Lay some hard data and/or supporting observations on the table. Then, we can engage in a meaningful dialogue about the possibility of running a 2.2 on a stock bottom end Cobra.
BTW, for your future reference, from Webser's New Collegiate Dictionary - hubris
: exaggerated pride or self-confidenceT-
Taz said:LOL That’s just about the most left-handed retraction I’ve ever read, but hey, no hard feelings. :thumbsup:
Now, take a look at my post count and signup date. Considering what you see there, do you think I would have bothered to question you in the first place if the topic hadn’t been one in which I have both some experience and a personal interest? Not likely. Most of the time, I just sit back and laugh at what I read on SVTP without ever posting a word, because I don’t need the hostile, retaliatory replies that usually follow.
I’d be the first to admit that I do have a hair trigger, and everyone who knows me will agree. (That’s at least partially the reason behind my nickname.) But I don't generally snap until/unless I feel I've been crossed, and my first post to you in this thread consisted of two questions that I didn't believe warranted what seemed a hostile, defensive reply.
On some forums, everyone is expected to be ready to validate whatever he/she says. No second-hand or conjured up notions allowed. And trust me, on any of those forums, SOMEONE would have asked those two questions, and NO ONE would have been expected to take offense. Unfortunately, all sorts of wild conjecture and just plain bad information are frequently accepted as fact here on SVTP without their validity ever being challenged, which is why I read most of these threads primarily for their entertainment value.
See, I don't consider selecting an oversized head unit for a blower installation to be the least bit analogous to “overbuilding” the other parts of a car. I consider it more akin to playing Russian roulette with an automatic pistol. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for overbuilding when it isn’t risky business to do so. For instance, I see that you’ve installed a TKO-500 in your car. Nice choice, but I would have been satisfied with nothing less than a TKO-600, specifically a TCET-4617. Why? Added insurance. The TKO-600 is stouter and uses a 26-spline input shaft. As you may have read, I recently bought a pair of DSS Level-5 halfshafts for my car, when I would certainly have been just fine with Level-2’s. Why? Because the L-5’s are stouter, so I paid the extra six bills for the additional insurance. BUT I was more than willing to settle for a KB 1.7 for my car. Why? Because I’ve looked long and hard at the limitations of the stock internals and the operational characteristics of the 2.2, and I’ve concluded that’s an unjustifiably RISKY combination. As far as I'm concerned, the only reasonably safe way to throw a 2.2 at a New Edge Cobra is to first forge the bottom end.
Then, out of nowhere, some kid (sorry, everything’s a matter of perspective) jumps in here and spouts off with a recommendation that I consider just plain WRONG. Forgive me for prying a bit to determine just exactly what he’s basing that on. Sure, I doubt that anybody would be foolish enough to take one individual's opinion and run with it, and if anyone really is that foolish, well, I'm a firm believer in Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. But foolish notions have a way of snowballing, so I thought I'd better ask you for some validation before a dozen similar posts popped up in this thread and turned into the majority - albeit untenable - recommendation. And there ARE those who are inclined to accept as fact any opinion voiced loudly enough, regardless of its merits.
None of us has all the answers, especially me. Even though I was probably wrenching cars (right there in Garland, as a matter of fact) about the same time your daddy was a gleam in your granddaddy’s eye, I've still got more questions than answers. But on this particular topic, I’ve done enough homework to believe I have at least a few of the answers. Of course, I’m always willing to listen to opposing viewpoints, but only when they’ve got some meat on their bones. Lay some hard data and/or supporting observations on the table. Then, we can engage in a meaningful dialogue about the possibility of running a 2.2 on a stock bottom end Cobra.
BTW, for your future reference, from Webser's New Collegiate Dictionary - hubris
T-
Fair enough. No hard feelings. Nice setup BTW. Interesting you stuck with an upgraded IRS as appossed to going solid axle. I'm actually considering going IRS when I get my Mach 1, that is if I can find a nice 03/04 IRS. :beer: You've got a nice setup and as a 99/01 Cobra owner I find it hard to doubt your obivous good taste in vehicles. So as you stated at the beginning of your post. No hard feelings. :thumbsup:
Hey Taz, even we have had our "debates" on here with the centri/roots war..LOL
It is a really big argument with cobra owners today, and I agree with you that a KB2.2 would be too much for a stock bottom end. I on the other hand went forged FIRST so I could go big when I did my blower.
:cheers:
It is a really big argument with cobra owners today, and I agree with you that a KB2.2 would be too much for a stock bottom end. I on the other hand went forged FIRST so I could go big when I did my blower.
:cheers:
dfw99cobra said:
Thanks for the props.
I realize that I could have built up an SRA setup for a whole lot less money, but I love the twisties, and I think the IRS works better in that setting, so I kept it. In fact, the IRS and the 4V motor were the two features that attracted me to the Cobra in the first place.
I read about your plans for the Mach. That should be a fun project. Good luck with it.
:beer:
T-
VenomousSVT said:
Ya, we did, but it's all good.
:beer:
For your goals, I think you took the right approach, and if I had been willing to forge first, then I would have taken it up to the next level with a 2.2, just because I could. But I've had nothing but grief and aggravation with rebuilds, so I decided not to open up the motor until it was absolutely necessary.
When the stock block gets tired or grenades and I replace it with a forged unit, I'll swap out the head unit for a 2.2 and bump up the boost to about 18 psi. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the hell out of what I've got because of all that fat torque.
T-
Taz said:
In hindsight i wish i would have done that, however, Al papitto is gonna forge my bottom end this coming spring and i'll turn the boost up to 14psi with the 1.7 and call it good. I really don't think i'll need more than that
Taz said:
I think you went with the right approach because I lost drivability with my SRA setup. With some good torque boxes, my rear end could handle some serious power but what good is it if it's noisy as hell and makes the car ride rough. It's not really that bad. I just wish I had had somebody to tell/show me what it was going to be like. I could get a different differential and do a couple other little things and it would be a lot better but with me selling the car it's pointless to put more money into it.
i have a question. unfrortunatly KB only makes the 1.7 for my car so i don't have the choice, but it was stated earlier that the 1.7 and the 2.2 make the same power at 9 psi. if this is true then why would it hurt the motor more with the 2.2 then the 1.7. i am just curios and always looking for knowledge. is it just because of the volume of air or is it something else. thanks.
Justin
Justin
There is nothing wrong with running he 2.2 rather than the 1.7. In fact you may make more power per psi because the 2.2 will be spinning slower (larger pulley on the 2.2 vs the 1.7 to make the same boost) so you should have less parasitic loss (even though you are spinning slightly larger screws). Just make sure you are spinning the blower slow enough to make the boost you want. Do not select the pulley that will make 9psi on the 1.7 and expect it to make 9psi on the 2.2L. You can call Ken at Kenne Bell and ask, if you dont believe me.
Also no the 8 rib conversion is extra (not included with the 2.2L Intercooled kit). But it should be noted that, that kit is listed as a "tuner kit", which probably means there is no chip, MAF, injectors, etc. Just the blower intercooler, manifold, boost a pump and small parts. So the difference will be more than $100. Again call to make sure.
If you have the money I would get the 2.2L intercooled kit (with a few extra pulleys so you can set the boost exactly where you want it SAFELY) and buy a 03 MAF, and injectors off this board or ebay... And pick up a predator (or equivalent) and hit the dyno. Skip the KB chip, these guys will tell you all about that.
Also no the 8 rib conversion is extra (not included with the 2.2L Intercooled kit). But it should be noted that, that kit is listed as a "tuner kit", which probably means there is no chip, MAF, injectors, etc. Just the blower intercooler, manifold, boost a pump and small parts. So the difference will be more than $100. Again call to make sure.
If you have the money I would get the 2.2L intercooled kit (with a few extra pulleys so you can set the boost exactly where you want it SAFELY) and buy a 03 MAF, and injectors off this board or ebay... And pick up a predator (or equivalent) and hit the dyno. Skip the KB chip, these guys will tell you all about that.
yea, the chip wasn't worth anything. it got me to the dyno to get it tuned. that's about it. when Ed tuned my car he said that the only thing the chip was doing was retarding the timing. glad i spent the money on that just to get it retuned. oh well, lesson learned. enjoy.
Justin
Justin
Snake Eyes said:
Hey, Kyle! Do you know anybody who has actually done what you're suggesting? I really wish just ONE individual who is advocating throwing a 2.2L KB on a stock block 4.6L and running it at 9 psi would actually TRY it first himself. I believe the results would alone put an end to end this topic.
How many have even considered the practical aspects of this issue? Obviously, you must severely underdrive a 2.2L screw blower to keep it below 10 psi on a 4.6L engine. But at slow blower speeds, the internal clearances inside the blower’s case will result in a significant loss of efficiency through air leakage.
It should be common knowledge that large, underdriven blowers suffer from a great deal of boost leakage, especially at lower engine RPM, and furthermore, that larger displacement blowers suffer from MORE leakage than smaller blowers spinning at the same speed, simply because their total clearance paths are longer.
The excessive leakage that you would experience with the 2.2L underdriven to 9 psi would reduce the amount of power produced to LESS than you’d get with a 1.7L at the same RPM, and compensating for this loss of low-RPM power in the 2.2L model with a smaller blower pulley will result in a high-RPM boost conditions that the stock internals will most likely be unable to handle. That’s why nobody does it. It’s RISKY business.
My position is that selecting a blower that is properly sized for the application is critical. It will remain so until someone brings some contradictory empirical evidence to the table.
T-
Last edited:
Users who are viewing this thread
