I love my J&S Vampire!!!

[Smokin04]

It's an amazing device. I have either run them, or seen them run on 2,3,4,5,and 8 cylinder engines. Both auto and motorcycle, air and liquid cooled and it has saved them all from over aggressive timing, running out of meth in an injection system, and even a fuel pump failure with the resulting lean detonating condition.

After seeing the number of "saved" engines I'll never run without one again.

Absolutely agree. I believe it saved me from engine damage on just the first tuning pulls. What's cheaper, $650 for a Vampire, or 6K for a new motor? In this day in age with all the mediocre tuners out there, I can't believe the Vampire is not the FIRST mod on these cars.

So the knock sensor just gets bolted to the side of the block via a 8mm or 10mm width bolt? Just wondering with the non-provisioned knock sensor iron blocks... I can think of a couple empty bolt holes next to the motor mounts.

How did you determine that 25% was the appropriate sensitivity level? Do you monitor knock via a gauge or anything since it's under the seat now that it's tuned?

And what type of fittings did you use for your PCV Remote Breather (line to valve cover)?

Nice job! :beer:

You're exactly right. In the iron block 03 Cobra application, the empty hole next to the motor mount is the correct location. Also works better there on the blower cars because the knock sensor is further away from the screws of the blower. They can be noisey buggers. If you read the main tuning story you can see how I reached the 25% level as my "safe zone". We used a tune that couldn't possibly detonate and turned the Vampire up until false knock was heard. Then turned it down until no false knock registered. Then we turned up the boost/timing until knock was heard (at a target where knock would most likely be present), and viola! Setting is right where it should be, and we backed the tune off (turned timing down) until i could make a full pull with no trace of detonation. Also, my PCV fittings were purchased from D'agastino.

took a quick glance at the Vampire Eight channel '99 and later Ford COP Instructions.

how is one knock sensor going to accurately detect detonation in each cylinder.....seems a knock sensor per each cyl bank would be needed.:shrug:

Nope, the logic used in the Vampire determines the last cylinder fired to be the detonating hole and pulls timing. So stupid simple, you wonder why ALL vehicle manufacturers don't use it.

Ive got one going in my build, glad to hear another success story

smokin - did you use the msd harness setup or splice into the wires? My concern with our coil pack covers was the extra wiring causing them not to seal and getting water in the back coil pack tubes.

No. I spliced into the AEM extenion harness and used the corresponding cylinder pinouts for true cylinder knock detection. That way I know exactly which hole is pinging, and how bad. All of this is explained in my step by step videos.

might have to pull the trigger and purchase the Vampire...another hit to the slush fund....these cobras are a magnet to mods...

See my above response. I can't believe people would NOT install this thing. You almost can't afford not to. I think they never took off, because it's not a power "making" device. But in reality it does make power. If you have a tuner that wont bring your tune "to the limit" for safety reasons...he's right for doing so. What the Vampire does is SHOW the tuners the limit, allowing them to tune right up to the engine's full potential. So you're no longer sacrificing that 20-30 HP to be "safe". Instead you gain that 20-30 HP back AND the piece mind knowing if an injector fails or some other whoops happens...the Vampire is your guardian angel that keeps the engine together. I think it's a STEAL at $650! You can now buy that piece of mind, and it works. Every time.:rockon:

Here is a good knock sensor location on the Boss 5.0 block It's a 6 mm thread.

"dead center" is the best location where it will "hear" all 8 cylinders on an equaul basis :coolman:

Yes, and what's better? Give John the thread pitch and dimensions, and he will make a custom mounting stud for your (or ANY) application.

Also...stay tuned guys. I'm going to make some videos about how to install/utilize the nitrous retard feature this weekend. What's better than twin turbos and 16 psi? Using a 150 shot to get them spooled. With the versatility of the Vampire, I don't even need to make tuning changes to run a large shot. The Vampire will retard timing for me....AND still pull additional from the cylinders if knock is detected. In my 15 years of automotive wrenching and tuning...no product has EVER been this kick-ass!:rockon:

 

[Ironhand]

Redundancy. No j/k. See sig, the 03 cobra, my turbo'd civic I built and the GT500. I'm tuning(ed) all three of those and this is an invaluable piece of insurance. The civic's been running very conservative boost and had a bunch of timing pulled till I got my vampire. Then I can safely turn things up and not blow stuff up while dialing in the tune.

Oh, I was thinking you had a Veyron and a 03 Cobra. lol

 

[MalcolmV8]

Oh, I was thinking you had a Veyron and a 03 Cobra. lol

Lol I just re-badged the bugatti as a civic so it wouldn't attract any attention.

 

[Ironhand]

Lol I just re-badged the bugatti as a civic so it wouldn't attract any attention.

:lol:

I see John with J&S is reading this thread. BTW John, make a Vampire that can control 10 cylinders.

 

[Posi]

I have one too that will finally be going on the car within the next few weeks.

It would have saved my original motor.:bash:

 

[SlowSVT]

Also...stay tuned guys. I'm going to make some videos about how to install/utilize the nitrous retard feature this weekend. What's better than twin turbos and 16 psi? Using a 150 shot to get them spooled. With the versatility of the Vampire, I don't even need to make tuning changes to run a large shot. The Vampire will retard timing for me....AND still pull additional from the cylinders if knock is detected. In my 15 years of automotive wrenching and tuning...no product has EVER been this kick-ass!:rockon:

I would be careful not to use this as an excuse to push the motor much beyond the octane requirements or mechanical limits. This sounds like a great method to protect the engine but I think some people will use this as a way to turn the dial up on their tune. Do that and the system will have the ignition timing all over the place from cylinder to cylinder and will do that often.

 

[MalcolmV8]

This sounds like a great method to protect the engine but I think some people will use this as a way to turn the dial up on their tune. Do that and the system will have the ignition timing all over the place from cylinder to cylinder and will do that often.

That's exactly my plan to turn up the dial on the tune. I'm not sure what your comment about timing been all over the place means?
I've added water/meth injection to my car which gives me room to add timing with more octane and I plan on doing just that. I won't be blindly adding timing till I see the vampire activate as that's usually past MBT anyways. Add timing till I see max HP at that rpm at that load and use the vampire to make sure I don't extended beyond any limits and start knocking. Also of course as a fail safe if my meth fails.

To the OP, did you use the vacuum/boost hookup on the Vampire? It prevents the vampire from activating if it sees 6" or more of vacuum to prevent timing pull on deceleration from false triggering.

 

[SlowSVT]

That's exactly my plan to turn up the dial on the tune. I'm not sure what your comment about timing been all over the place means?
I've added water/meth injection to my car which gives me room to add timing with more octane and I plan on doing just that. I won't be blindly adding timing till I see the vampire activate as that's usually past MBT anyways. Add timing till I see max HP at that rpm at that load and use the vampire to make sure I don't extended beyond any limits and start knocking. Also of course as a fail safe if my meth fails.

To the OP, did you use the vacuum/boost hookup on the Vampire? It prevents the vampire from activating if it sees 6" or more of vacuum to prevent timing pull on deceleration from false triggering.

What I meant by that is the system can pull timing on each cylinder independently. If you push the system into that mode the cylinders will knock at different points which will have some cylinders running 10 - 20 degrees apart. The system at that point is doing it's job but if it activated often due to excessive boost and timing the system will be working in overtime and is doing nothing more than preventing the motor for granading.

Not sure what J&S views are about using the system to increase the boost and timing beyond the octane rating for the fuel as a way to increase power. I would tune and boost the car where it can safely run without the Vampire and have it there just in case something goes awry.

 

[MalcolmV8]

What I meant by that is the system can pull timing on each cylinder independently. If you push the system into that mode the cylinders will knock at different points which will have some cylinders running 10 - 20 degrees apart. The system at that point is doing it's job but if it activated often due to excessive boost and timing the system will be working in overtime and is doing nothing more than preventing the motor for granading.

Not sure what J&S views are about using the system to increase the boost and timing beyond the octane rating for the fuel as a way to increase power. I would tune and boost the car where it can safely run without the Vampire and have it there just in case something goes awry.

I believe the documentation says it pulls something like 1/2 a degree of timing each time that cylinder fires until the knock goes away so you're talking about 1 maybe 2 degrees timing pulled form a cylinder not 10 or 20. Assuming the tune was right at the edge as you suggested. Yes the vampire can pull 20 degrees across all cylinders but that's mostly for testing and troubleshooting so you can see the affects immediately. If it's doing that in normal driving you have something seriously wrong.

Also it has many output options in terms of bar graphs of LEDs that show how much timing is been pulled exactly and from which cylinders. I opted to just go with a single LED that shows me it's activating. I have this LED laying loosely on my dash now shortly to be installed in a nice hidden but very visible location such as the a/c vent. The idea is if you ever see this LED go off you need to stay out of it immediately and find the issue and correct whether it's meth, tune, plugs what ever.

I'm not sure what you mean by pushing beyond fuel or octane limits. If you have enough octane for what you're doing max power will come before knock. Power will tapper off from to much timing and eventually start knocking. If that's happening your tune is way off and needs to be redone.

If your compression level and or boost level can make more power than your fuel octane is capable of then yes you will add timing and at a certain point you hit a ceiling where you could be making more power with more timing but your octane is limiting you so you have to stop. So lets say you've just been running at 18 degrees timing to be safe. Now you get a vampire and lets say you decide to turn up the timing and you find you're hitting the limit at 23 degrees and you can tell because the vampire is activating. You then pull back a couple degrees and leave it at 21 which is safe and gives you room for error and you've picked up 3 degrees. I'm not seeing the problem here?

 

[John at J&S]

Malcolm:

There are ten increments of knock retard. With S1 up, each increment is 2°. With S1 down, each is worth 1°.

It can retard up to seven increments with one knock event. The number is proportional to the size of the detected knock signal.

In some cases, power can be made by "running on the lights", meaning advance it far enough so some cylinders are being retarded.

Graphs here:
Knock Control in action

This was from Ian Whitesides 2.0L formula three engine. He's a calibration engineer at Ilmor Racing in the UK.

Timing was mapped on the dyno within two degrees of the knock limit using knock headphones, then the unit was added and timing advanced in steps.

This combination was run for the '04 season with no engine damage. The next year he switched to a Pectel ECU with internal knock control.

 

[SlowSVT]

If your compression level and or boost level can make more power than your fuel octane is capable of then yes you will add timing and at a certain point you hit a ceiling where you could be making more power with more timing but your octane is limiting you so you have to stop. So lets say you've just been running at 18 degrees timing to be safe. Now you get a vampire and lets say you decide to turn up the timing and you find you're hitting the limit at 23 degrees and you can tell because the vampire is activating. You then pull back a couple degrees and leave it at 21 which is safe and gives you room for error and you've picked up 3 degrees. I'm not seeing the problem here?

This is precisely what I was getting at. To some degree or another you'd be using the Vampire to control the ignition timing taking it to the threashold of detonation rather than just protect against it. In that case the Vampire has effectively been given the responsibility of handling the ignition timing under periods of high boost. If one was in my car and the lights were flashing every time I got heavy into the gas I would be worried.

Again, I have no experience with the Vampire but something tells me they don't advocating running a tune you would never run without their ignition controller.

Then again I may have it all wrong and they are indeed used to allow the engine to run just before the point of detonation (trust me, I can see people doing this :nonono.



Malcolm, you just install a meth injection system as well. You planning on 25 lbs of boost @ 21 degrees running 93 octane?

 

[MalcolmV8]

John, thanks for the clarification. I keep learning.

This is precisely what I was getting at. To some degree or another you'd be using the Vampire to control the ignition timing taking it to the threashold of detonation rather than just protect against it. In that case the Vampire has effectively been given the responsibility of handling the ignition timing under periods of high boost. If one was in my car and the lights were flashing every time I got heavy into the gas I would be worried.

We have a break down of communication here lol. If in my example above if I left it at 23 degrees then yes you are absolutely correct. I was saying you find that limit on the dyno of 23, turn it down to 21 and leave it there for safety. Now you actually KNOW that 21 is safe because you don't see knock till 23. Better than guessing and leaving it at 18.
You are absolutely correct the LED should never light up. I said as much above. If it ever lights you need to find the problem and fix it (tune or what ever). I think we both agree here but are just missing each other on the communication.

Malcolm, you just install a meth injection system as well. You planning on 25 lbs of boost @ 21 degrees running 93 octane?

Only 91 octane and currently just street tuned. When I get some time I'll hit the dyno. 21 degrees timing is just a number. I have no number in mind. When I strap my car down on the dyno I'll turn up the timing till one of two things happen. Either I'll pass peak power and it'll start to taper off. In that case find the timing where it started making peak power and back off two degrees.
Second scenario power keeps going up till I start to knock. Turn back a couple degrees to make sure it never knocks while I drive it and the vampire led NEVER lights up unless I have a problem such as meth system failing or a fuel pump etc.

If that's only 18 degrees timing or it's 23 degrees does not bother me. It's how each individual car reacts on the dyno that matters. Never just add timing because you've been told or have this idea your car "should" take X degrees of timing.

 

[Smokin04]

To the OP, did you use the vacuum/boost hookup on the Vampire? It prevents the vampire from activating if it sees 6" or more of vacuum to prevent timing pull on deceleration from false triggering.

Actually, no. I haven't used the vacuum port in my application. I wouldn't get much use out of the feature because my cams prevent me from seeing less than 6 psi very seldomly. Yes while cruising I'm at roughly 10-12 inches, but any hills or throttle touch immediately drop it to below 6...so I decided to not run it.

What I meant by that is the system can pull timing on each cylinder independently. If you push the system into that mode the cylinders will knock at different points which will have some cylinders running 10 - 20 degrees apart. The system at that point is doing it's job but if it activated often due to excessive boost and timing the system will be working in overtime and is doing nothing more than preventing the motor for granading.

Not sure what J&S views are about using the system to increase the boost and timing beyond the octane rating for the fuel as a way to increase power. I would tune and boost the car where it can safely run without the Vampire and have it there just in case something goes awry.

I understand what you're saying. But the Vampire is not used like that. It's designed to detect knock and retard timing. Your tuner should not have 50* of timing in the tune just because the Vampire can pull 20*. The Vampire shows you at what REAL WORLD levels of boost and timing your octane limits you to. A tuner can finally see a real knock threshold and tune right up to the octane limit...not over it. To use the Vampire to "control timing" above the knock limit is not what it's there for. The last sentence in your above quote is dead nuts right. The difference is, WITHOUT the Vampire you would never know that your engine doesn't knock at 20 psi and 20* of timing...you tuner can only ASSUME it will and never allow it to see where the knock ACTUALLY occurs at. In other words, your tuner is tuning blind or just guessing...or hoping that the extra degree he just gave you doesn't kill your engine. And depsite what they say...NO TUNER knows where the knock limit of 50 different engines are...they rely on experience (and experiences of others) to get a ballpark boost/timing/octane target and use a dyno to verify safety. With the Vampire...that sh*t is obsolete. You get the FULL OUTPUT of YOUR engine WITH the piece of mind knowing it'll will never detonate apart.

This is precisely what I was getting at. To some degree or another you'd be using the Vampire to control the ignition timing taking it to the threashold of detonation rather than just protect against it. In that case the Vampire has effectively been given the responsibility of handling the ignition timing under periods of high boost. If one was in my car and the lights were flashing every time I got heavy into the gas I would be worried.

Again, I have no experience with the Vampire but something tells me they don't advocating running a tune you would never run without their ignition controller.

Then again I may have it all wrong and they are indeed used to allow the engine to run just before the point of detonation (trust me, I can see people doing this :nonono.

Malcolm, you just install a meth injection system as well. You planning on 25 lbs of boost @ 21 degrees running 93 octane?

Slow, I really think you're head is ALMOST in the right place. It's not intended to operate full time on a tune that is knocking or way too aggressive from the git go. It's designed to show you the knock, allow the tuner to tune right up to it, and it's always there in case of a whoops. It allows the end user to always operate at maximum SAFE power and prevent catastrophy at the same time. It really doesn't get any better.:rockon:

 

[SlowSVT]

Malcolm

I was making a very general statement as this device probably has the potential of getting miss-used.

Slow, I really think you're head is ALMOST in the right place. It's not intended to operate full time on a tune that is knocking or way too aggressive from the git go. It's designed to show you the knock, allow the tuner to tune right up to it, and it's always there in case of a whoops. It allows the end user to always operate at maximum SAFE power and prevent catastrophy at the same time. It really doesn't get any better.:rockon:

Do you think people who are considering a Vampire are not looking at this as a "power adder" as a means to push the envelope? I thought I was pretty clear about that but maybe I didn't do a very good job communicating :shrug:

 

[John at J&S]

bgstew6 running "on the lights" here:

bgstew6's knock controller demo

He had pulleys to make 19 psi at the time, but was holding it to 8 lbs as he passed cars on the freeway.

That was four years ago. As far as I know he is running the same tune, has said he sees no reason to change it, though he is now pullied to make 22 psi.

 

[John at J&S]

Interesting post shows data from eight wide band O2's:
Login • Speed Talk

One cylinder goes from 11:1 to 15:1 in just a few hundred RPM. The Collector mounted O2s for this data (tuned at The Carb Shop in Ontario, CA) showed a perfectly smooth 12.5:1 AFR throughout the pull, and the fuel delivery from the EFI system was consistent through the entire pull.

When you tune for "no knock", you are tuning for the cylinder that knocks easiest.

 

[brian97cobra]

this kit seems very interesting. how much are they?

id love to see a how to install and see one of these in action on an 03/04 cobra.

just not a lotta data on this product but it seems very interesting for sure.

 

[Ironhand]

this kit seems very interesting. how much are they?

id love to see a how to install and see one of these in action on an 03/04 cobra.

just not a lotta data on this product but it seems very interesting for sure.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...rries-j-s-safeguard-knock-control-system.html

 

[Smokin04]

UPDATE:

I have made several pulls on nitrous and pump gas. The highlights:

On a 100 shot into the motor and a 175 shot across the intercooler, there was NO KNOCK present in my engine. I made no changes to the timing in the vehicle before making these runs. I tried a 60 shot (no IC sprayer), 60 w/ IC sprayer, 100 no I/C sprayer, and 100 w/ IC sprayer. All runs were full pulls with no timing being retarded. What does this mean you ask? It means that the industry standard of retarding timing 2 degrees per 50 HP worth of spray just got blown away! I ran 100 wet shot on PUMP GAS with 17 psi of boost with not a trace of knock. those who know boost, know that 1 degree of timing can be worth up to 15 rwhp in some cases. 4 degrees can be way more. So in essence, I got FULL HP from timing, boost and spray with the Vampire as a guardian angel. I posted the videos on my youtube channel.

 

[MalcolmV8]

UPDATE:

I have made several pulls on nitrous and pump gas. The highlights:

On a 100 shot into the motor and a 175 shot across the intercooler, there was NO KNOCK present in my engine. I made no changes to the timing in the vehicle before making these runs. I tried a 60 shot (no IC sprayer), 60 w/ IC sprayer, 100 no I/C sprayer, and 100 w/ IC sprayer. All runs were full pulls with no timing being retarded. What does this mean you ask? It means that the industry standard of retarding timing 2 degrees per 50 HP worth of spray just got blown away! I ran 100 wet shot on PUMP GAS with 17 psi of boost with not a trace of knock. those who know boost, know that 1 degree of timing can be worth up to 15 rwhp in some cases. 4 degrees can be way more. So in essence, I got FULL HP from timing, boost and spray with the Vampire as a guardian angel. I posted the videos on my youtube channel.

That's VERY cool. I had a similar experience when I was running two tunes before using the vampire's feature to pull timing when spraying and forgot to change tunes and made some hard highway pulls on spray with full timing too. I got super worried but the vampire hadn't triggered and I pulled the plugs and they looked just fine. Maybe it's because I could have been running more timing when not spraying?

BTW when you say you're spraying in the the motor and on the IC can you explain? do you literally have a jet spraying on the intercooler in the blower? or what do you mean?