Historic / Collectable Race Car questions

[JohnW#88]

Calling all historic race car experts.

I'm always in the market for a new toy, how do I begin understanding and tracking the very fluid market that is collectable race cars?

As an example, 70's Trans Am Boss 302's (real and clones) are all over the map in terms of selling prices, how would a buyer know what a "good deal" is?
(given the name drivers, championship cars, factory vs privateers are all an easy concept to understand the impact on price).

I want to dig deeper.

Is there a "price guide" with median prices?
Are there consultants for hire? Consultants that specialize in a certain segment? The ones advertised on the internet seem a bit sketchy.

I understand documentation is critical and it adds or detracts value, but are there "tells" that help predict future movement or is it a crap shoot based on a future buyers desires?

Guys, I'm looking for big picture concepts as to how to understand this market better. The more I think I know, the muddier the water gets.

Thanks all.

 

[JohnW#88]

A possible exersize to help me get my mind around this stuff.

Since this board is certainly the worlds experts on 95R race cars, perhaps using that one car I could begin understanding value dynamics.

Questions:

What is the most valuable 95R race car?
Why?
Was it ever offered FS, did it sell, what time period did it sell (pre-08 econ mess)?
What would the 95R race car food chain look like after the #1 car?

I appreciate all opinions.

 

[Saleenrose]

I would think desire drives price. Those buying thinking future will go up, are not buying for desire. The value can drop like a hot tater if you dont really desire what you buy. I have a lot of cars but really enjoy and desire them, many I have more money in than I could ever get back, but I have no desire to sell. The 60's cars are bringing back someones dream, when those people with the dream pass on, no one has that desire like they did.

 

[1995COBRA-R]

John,
I can speak for someone that has owned a vintage racing Mustang for 13 years (and raced vintage for 23 years):

You must plan to turn a large amount of money into a small amount of money. :-D I do it because I love doing it, and enjoy the fellowship of other track addicts (priceless).

It's a passion.

I believe that the "barn find" 1970 Ford Boss 302 that won that important race is done. They have already been going at auction for $400,000. I feel that this is over.

The ex-IMSA 1995 Cobra R could prove to be a great bargain now. I am not so sure about this, but they once said this about the famous GT350's and SCCA T/A cars (which proved their weight as if it was gold).

I'd buy blue chip stocks as a real investment and gamble with 5% of assets. I wish that I knew where the 5% will go. :shrug:

 

[flattrack53]

One day I feel like I am going to say... "I remember when I got offered a 95r for 17k and I said that was to much money"... As the hammer slams for a 150k

 

[Saleenrose]

I agree that someday might happen, but also I plan to enjoy every mile on the track, and if they turn out to be worth nothing I will not regret owning them. This is why I do it.

 

[JohnW#88]

I believe that the "barn find" 1970 Ford Boss 302 that won that important race is done. They have already been going at auction for $400,000. I feel that this is over.

Too bad, I certainly don't.

I believe a whole new era of collectable race cars has started and the early bird gets the worm(s). Many important cars are on the move right now!

Again, I'm hoping to understand the pricing dynamics of used race cars in conjunction to pro cars vs. privateers, championship cars vs. also rans and so on. I figured the 95R food chain would help me with my formulas.

What is the #1 most desirable IMSA 95R? Steeda's car?

 

[JohnW#88]

One day I feel like I am going to say... "I remember when I got offered a 95r for 17k and I said that was to much money"... As the hammer slams for a 150k

This, this and this x 1000.

My Dad is haunted by the cars that slipped away.

Maybe the biggest was Bob Hinson's #42 911. It won the 24 hrs of Daytona and Sebring. Dad was part of the crew and watched it go to Panama after it's life was over in the US. It was old, tired and cheap at the time.

Now the "clone" of that car races on the west coast is valued around $500,000. The real chassis is still in a field in Panama with it's VIN tags cut out. The real BHR 911 restored would be north of 1M.

This era is no different.

 

[598]

I'm certain that 95r #214 is the most valuable of the 95's It was a privateer in the Midwest region SCCA. What make it so special and expensive is that I own it, and it would cost well over "market prices" to get it away from me. My guess is most of the other raced cars will come with the same answer.

Steve

 

[tomshep]

Too bad, I certainly don't.

I believe a whole new era of collectable race cars has started and the early bird gets the worm(s). Many important cars are on the move right now!

Again, I'm hoping to understand the pricing dynamics of used race cars in conjunction to pro cars vs. privateers, championship cars vs. also rans and so on. I figured the 95R food chain would help me with my formulas.

What is the #1 most desirable IMSA 95R? Steeda's car?

I have researched the 95Rs a TON and have extensive race records on most of the cars. I can tell you what cars have been on the podium and which have won races in the major race series.

I am only speaking of road race cars.

There are only about 20 Rs that professionally raced. This doesn't include the local SCCA club or driving events.

A lot has to do with race history, probably next is drivers and sponsorship. I also believe the livery of the car can help it if it is something that stands out.

#1) Zippo #47--4 Professional victories. I don't have the number in front of me, but another 8-10 podiums as I recall. Professionally raced from 95 until retired in 2002. HUGE race history in many series. Great livery and Zippo has a strong tie to motorsports. I bought it from TF Racing for $25,000 as a turn-key car in 02. I have turned down twice that.

#2) Steeda #20--3 Professional victories. I don't recall podiums. Raced from 95-97 or early 98. Dario got ticked at the race series and quit racing the car so it didn't have as long a history in competition. Great sponsorship due to Steeda on the side. Still owned by the original owner (not Dario).

After these two cars, it gets tougher to prioritize them. Very few had more than one victory, if any. Not in any particular order:

George Biskup #22--First R that was delivered to the public from Mascotech. There is documentation to prove this. Good race history during the early years. It is owned by a forum member.

Ed Zabinsky (Ran under a few #s)--Good race history. Has the distinction of racing in the Pike's Peak Hill Challenge. Also good race history early on. It is owned by a forum member.

Hacker Brothers--Two real Rs and one Clone. All three cars have strong race history with the clone winning the fall race at Daytona. They ran during the early years but disappeared about 98. One R and the clone are owned by forum members. The second R is in Florida.

Snipes Ford--One real R and three Clones. These cars had a great livery with the stars and stripes pattern. The real R was actually built by Hacker Brothers and raced under their livery for part of 95. Then went to the famous Stars and Stripes Team Livery for Snipes Ford which was on all of the cars. It was made famous in the 96 Road Atlanta rain race that destroyed nearly half the field. Two of the clones also raced under the Budget Rental Car livery. One of the clones did have a victory. I own the R and it needs complete rebuilding. The replacement car to mine was a clone and raced by Seafuse Racing before being purchased by a private owner in the North-East and has been turned back into its Stars and Stripes Livery. Forum members own the second clone and the third clone wrecked chassis.

Massuri-Muller--One real R and one clone. Whereabouts unknown.....

Steeda/Terra-X R--Raced as a team car with the #20 for three races and had one podium as I recall. It was purchased from the original owner by a forum member. Then sold to an enthusiast that raced it at the hobby level and finally to a vintage racer. This car is maintained by Gary Jones Motorsports.

I am not touching on the many clone Rs that were built over the years and raced at the professional and amateur level. These cars are the ones that will be much tougher to come up with a value for.

There are a few more, but these are the more common chassis. As you eluded to, most have already been purchased by people that know what they are. The current owners are enthusiasts that enjoy the cars for what they were intended but also hopeful they may someday be worth a decent amount of money.

I am sure others will chime in on cars I have missed.

Tom

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Too bad, I certainly don't.

I believe a whole new era of collectable race cars has started and the early bird gets the worm(s). Many important cars are on the move right now!

Did I post this? My memory is not as it once was (and then it was poor).

The problem with collectable race cars is that you can dent them. This is a Mark Donahue car.

To me the T-F Racing Zippo cars stood out.

They just announced a vintage race next year at Indy (the road course). They are claiming one day on the Indy 4-turn race course (over the bricks).

 

[JohnW#88]

Thanks for the post, Tom. I appreciate the detail and effort that went in to it.

Thanks for documenting the "food chain". That was what I was looking for and confirmed a few of my beliefs as I move forward.

I agree with the points you made concerning a cars past.

1. Results
2. Driver(s)/ Team
3. Livery
4. Make

I'm not sure which is most important, perhaps others would reorganize their list differently.

I also agree that Livery/ Sponsors is critical to big resale numbers.
Iconic cars like the Red Lobster March, Sunoco 917, Momo Ferrari 333 and the Coca-Cola Porsche 935 are certainly helped by their cool graphics packages. No doubt.

Another few factors I’ve been wrestling with:

Was XYZ the dominating car of its era?
Does XYZ have an iconic/ historical significance?
How many are left?
What will XYZ be similar to as the years pass?
Did XYZ have a fan base?

Couple that list with another dozen variables and you have a formula! :bash:

 

[1995COBRA-R]

1. Results
2. Driver(s)/ Team
3. Livery
4. Make

I'd go different here:

1. A documented Cobra R? *
2. Paperwork proving it is what is claimed (the more the better).
3. Results, owners, livery.

* I have one is mind. He doesn't check here, but I'd like to own it. It is a real Cobra R. It has a great SCCA logbook for events from the east coast to the west coast. It was wrecked in FL (they all get wrecked). It wasn't an IMSA car (no logbooks in IMSA anyway) but did make one SCCA T/A event with other logbook entries.

The next real problem is finding one FS. They are rare like Tom said. It's about as many as the 1965 GT350R.

 

[tomshep]

Damn!

Check out the guy being thrown back. What an experience that was!!!

Tom

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Check out the guy being thrown back. What an experience that was!

Tom,
He is doing OK, or I wouldn't have posted it (the driver is fine except for his wallet).

 

[tomshep]

WOW!

Tom

 

[SL 1993 R]

Having my 93R up for sale off and on the last couple years, it seems the market is crazy. My car was raced sparingly in the SCCA World Challenge, which was the Pro series. I have had one offer on the car in the mid 20's. A driven 93 R in today's market seems to be around 50 plus, but my raced R is barely half that. Go figure.

As for the history of my car, it has lots of positives. It was raced by two known drivers, Robin Burnett (who has a few championships) and Andy McDermot. The ABW team consisted of a Ford Plant manager and a guy named Almsy, who was instrumental in the R cars with the SVT Team. It has race wins. It was apart of the championship team. It was never wrecked. It still has the race motor and the original drive train. Mark Wilson said the front fenders were prototypes for Ford Performance aftermarket.

Documents, everything from the original window sticker, to SCCA faxes allowing 315 rear tires, a wide body, and a 410 cubic inch Yates headed motor nearing 800 horsepower and an SCCA logbook. Pictures of it in various years, and numbers. From when it was first completed parked on a lawn in front Ford building 4 or 5 at Dearborn, to the Steeda livery when it was part of the Championship team. Pictures of it in the SCCA end of year magazine with the seasons results.

Maybe I should just push it off into a corner and wait until I have some extra time for it...
:shrug:

 

[1995COBRA-R]

Having my 93R up for sale off and on the last couple years, it seems the market is crazy.

The timing just isn't right, yet.

Maybe I should just push it off into a corner and wait...

~Maybe...

I'll be honest. I'd drive it to shows and car events (with the facts as you said). I'd do some DE's. I'd enjoy it.

Someone will see it that wants it. Can you post some nice pictures and a complete description here?

We tend to get off topic here in two posts. Sorry. I got off topic on a $600,000 historic collectible car that went from $600K to $400K in one second. It was related to owning a collectable-historic car.

 

[JohnW#88]

We tend to get off topic here in two posts. Sorry. I got off topic on a $600,000 historic collectible car that went from $600K to $400K in one second. It was related to owning a collectable-historic car.

No waaaaaaaaaay. Not here! ;-)

I think your posts are spot on. The car(s) I'm working on, I would not think of putting on the track again- but that's me. They're just not replaceable.

 

[JohnW#88]

How about these future Fords:

1. Paul Brown's late 90's blue/ white World Challenge GT Mustang.
2. Paul Brown's 2012 Boss 302 WC Championship car.
3. Saleen / Tim Allan's RRR World Challenge cars.
4. Rehagan Racing's GA Championship 302S.
5. Brandon Davis' ACS World Challenge Mustangs. BASS ASS!
6. ?

Where are these cars and what would their future values look like?

Feel free to add to the list...