Please explain the parameters that define what you consider "proof" in the scenario you are speaking of. I would like to know what differentiates that particular failure from all the other engine failures that have occured with small dampers.
Harmonic Balancer Question
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Please explain the parameters that define what you consider "proof" in the scenario you are speaking of. I would like to know what differentiates that particular failure from all the other engine failures that have occured with small dampers.
If you READ my post you see I never said that. I said that the PUMP was not designed to take 7500RPM, and neither was the stock dampener. Even BONE STOCK cars have broken the pump gears that implies the pump is the weak spot.
As I posted above (if you cared to read) I have NEVER seen a single post of a bolt-on car that broke a pump and blamed it on a pulley, and that WASNT an old Steeda pulley. the ONLY pumps I have seen or heard breaking were either old style steeda pullies or were reving well over 7000rpm.
I date you to find a single person on the internet(i say internet as with the 100's of mustang forums you should be able to fine ONE if you are in deed correct) that was running a quality(march, ATI, IW) pulley and wasn't revving over 7000rpm and has proof that it was the pulley that caused it.
Go ahead there are millions of mod motors out there, show me ONE that broke as you claim, because I cant fine a SINGLE ONE!
Its odd, for such a HUGE problem for there to be so few actual cases of it when you run the pump in an RPM it was designed for.
And of course the 2v will have the same problem, its the same pump as the 5.4L CobraR(according to Ed O.), all you have to do is beat on it or rev it outside of its designed range.
arghh....
You said, "The only break down of a engine proven to be due to the pulley was a 7000+rpm 5.4l race motor".
This is incorrect.
And I don't need to search the internet forums to provide examples of broken oil pump gears related directly to Steeda u/d dampers. I've been on Mustang/T-Bird boards since 1997, and I can recall numerous examples as they happened over the years.
Call me the "Steeda cheer squad" all you want, I would argue this issue even if I didn't happen to own the product. The whole point being is don't blame the damper for a cheaply designed oil pump gear drive. I've never built or taken apart a modular engine, but I have stripped my share of everything from lawn mower engines and Windsor pushrod motors to big 14 liter diesels. In my experience the part that breaks 99% of the time is the part that was either damaged during assembly, improperly engineered or just the weakest link in the system. In the case of these modular motors the oil gear is one of those parts. These engines are designed to be reliable and to withstand what Average Joe would dish out over the life of the vehicle, not do endless quarter mile runs or run the 'Ring in under 7 minutes for 24 hours straight.
If you rev the car past stock specs all you are doing is playing with fire no matter what kind of damper you have on it. No matter what kind of engine or vehicle it is if you over-rev it, power shift, do big smokey burnouts, or otherwise "abuse" the car it's not if something is going to break it's when. 9 times out of 10 when something breaks on a car it isn't the damper or the transmission or the diff but the loose nut between the steering wheel and the driver's seat.
If you rev the car past stock specs all you are doing is playing with fire no matter what kind of damper you have on it. No matter what kind of engine or vehicle it is if you over-rev it, power shift, do big smokey burnouts, or otherwise "abuse" the car it's not if something is going to break it's when. 9 times out of 10 when something breaks on a car it isn't the damper or the transmission or the diff but the loose nut between the steering wheel and the driver's seat.
Agreed.. Stack this argument in with "how much oil should i add" and "how much will my car make" and "what should I do with X amount of money I have".. It's been argued to death guys, my god..
I agree but it's not about convincing these guy's, the entire Ford engineering staff couldnt get through to them. This is about making sure people who view these forums are properly informed. It's a pain in the a$$ but it's the right thing to do.
I'm all for correct and proper information, but you can't just say "underdrives are bad" because it is not correct information in all cases. The correct information should be:
Due to the "weak" powdered metal design of the oil pump drive gears if you over-rev your car (6500+) you run the risk of shattering the oil drive gears. A more expensive damper may prolong the life of the stock gears, but ultimately they are likely to fail sometime down the road when run under those conditions. Billet oil pump drive gears are available which will also help to safeguard your motor against this type of failure. If you have a mild bolt-on car that does not see those RPMs regularly then you are more than likely safe using the less expensive aftermarket dampers.
That should be the "Damper sticky", it is factual, concise and allows the reader to make their own decision. The problem is people just want to be told "what is right" instead of using their own brains to make an informed decision based on their personal budget, goals and threshhold of acceptable risk.
Due to the "weak" powdered metal design of the oil pump drive gears if you over-rev your car (6500+) you run the risk of shattering the oil drive gears. A more expensive damper may prolong the life of the stock gears, but ultimately they are likely to fail sometime down the road when run under those conditions. Billet oil pump drive gears are available which will also help to safeguard your motor against this type of failure. If you have a mild bolt-on car that does not see those RPMs regularly then you are more than likely safe using the less expensive aftermarket dampers.
That should be the "Damper sticky", it is factual, concise and allows the reader to make their own decision. The problem is people just want to be told "what is right" instead of using their own brains to make an informed decision based on their personal budget, goals and threshhold of acceptable risk.
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You should just stop posting. 6,500 RPM is NOT "over reving" a Cobra. It wont break the oil pump gears. The normal operating range with a stock damper is 6,800. Ford runs these engines for hours at that RPM during R&D to make sure they are up to the task. That figure also incorporates a safety margin so the actual red line is higher. However, that RPM IS beyond the capabilities of a small diameter damper. That's why everybody is saying they're not appropriate for our engines.
I didnt write post #31 to be a sticky and I dont think it needed "correction" as you put it, nor was it lacking in factual and concise information. I stand by everything I said.
From post #31:
1) The oil pump gears in modular engines are poorly designed and are susceptible to failure under increased crankshaft harmonics.
2) They can fail under a variety of conditions that test the limited ability of their design. Over reving, forced induction and yes, inferior dampers.
3) The Ford DOHC engine is a unique, high reving V8 with multiple camshafts contributing to excessive harmonics at the crank where fragile and poorly designed powdered metal oil pump gears are driven off the crank snout and absorb any and all harmful crankshaft harmonics.
4) The stock damper with stock powdered metal gears is good to 7,000 RPM.
6) The stock damper with billet gears can operate to 7,400 RPM but is not advisable.
6) Anything over 7,200 RPM should be running billet gears and an ATI damper.
7) A small diameter damper shouldn’t be run in any combination over 6,500 RPM.
8) Billet gears will hold up with a small damper but the harmonics beat up the crankshaft drive pretty good and eventually something will fail whether the pump, a camshaft gear or the crank trigger.
The reason I keep citing the 6500 rpm number is that unless you have a ported/worked intake, head work or non-stock cams and valve springs there is no reason to spin the motor any higher. Every single dyno sheet I have seen from people that make in the 300 whp area with bolt-ons the power peaks around 6200 rpm and is clearly dropping off at 6500 rpm. If that is indeed the case why would you continue to rev past that point? There is no benefit to be had by doing so, you are just tempting fate no matter what damper you are running.
Now answer honestly, do you have a problem with the March 1158 damper (which is smaller and has less rotational mass than the new Steeda part)? Or do you only get all nasty on this subject because Steeda used re-branded ASP pulleys over 5 years ago that may have contributed to some of these failures. Be honest and tell me if you can provide a link or anything else that specifically links Steeda's new design to these failures. And no, I will not accept some quote from 8 years ago that only uses the generic term "small diameter damper".
Now answer honestly, do you have a problem with the March 1158 damper (which is smaller and has less rotational mass than the new Steeda part)? Or do you only get all nasty on this subject because Steeda used re-branded ASP pulleys over 5 years ago that may have contributed to some of these failures. Be honest and tell me if you can provide a link or anything else that specifically links Steeda's new design to these failures. And no, I will not accept some quote from 8 years ago that only uses the generic term "small diameter damper".
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You have a lot to learn grasshoppa. Must learn to walk before you can run.
Admittedly I am not a drag racer. I'm one of those dorks that swerves around cones in a parking lot and occasionally drives on a road course when my budget allows. I would like to know why you would rev an engine past the point where it makes peak power, it may not be applicable to my interests but still may be informative.
Except for the ones that broke bone stock
Except for the thousands that have been taken to 7k and driven on MANY daily drives, and haven't broke.
So aside from the thousands that have had no problem, and seemingly limited number that HAVE had a problem, and the limited number of those that were actually due to the pulleys, its safe to say your VERY safe under 7000rpm.
Still no ones shown me a 4.6 revving under 7k that blew up and proven to be a pulleys fault. If they are SO TERRIBLE you would find them all over. All I see is rumors and 7,200k+ cars blowing up.
It's like saying a DSM WILL get crank walk, when actually very few really do.
Is that true with 4.10's or is it more applicable to the stock 3.27's? I personally never noticed where the RPMs drop to when I shift from 1st to second, I'm usually concentrating on the road ahead of me and just being mindful of the RPMs in corner of my eye. That's one of the reasons I got a Raptor shift light. When you are on the autocross grid or road course its a bit more difficult to make sure you are shifting at exactly the optimal RPM since you are trying to coordinate an process so much. I'm sure it gets easier with seat time, but for my experience level it is still a demanding task.
The shift points will not differ with a rear gear change as they don't affect averege power.
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Gears are just a touque multiplier...so if you car make 300ft/lbs at 4000rpm, then no matter the gear is still makes the same torque.
No.
Peak power means preety much crap.
Shift at 6500 and look where you are in the next gear. Pretty much under the curve where it has to climb back up.
Redline shifting FTW.
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