E98?

[97crystalwhite]

picked up will save a hell of alot of cash. shipping is what jacks the price. but also they cant sell 100% ethanol because that would be like selling alcohol to anyone and then liquor tax would come in on that also. everybody makes it diffrent. if its e98 or e99. that 1 or 2% has to be used as something other than ethanol. like your pump stations when they get there shipments, its broke down with scrap petrol thats leftover at the suppliers. And thats coing from a big supplier for all of the thortons around my area. i paid 225 for my barrel. it was filled to the rim (most people only fill 53 gallons) and another plus is he broke down the ethanol (2%) with VP110. so make sure you ask questions before you go spending money because like i said, everyone has a diff. method. i wish i could drive local and get mine.......

 

[elgonzo]

Danno 44 can you send info on that .
I would like to order some ...
Thanks

 

[65fastback2+2]

if you have e85 locally available there isnt any reason to pay outrageous prices for e90, e98, etc. The returns after e60 are GREATLY diminishing. in fact, e85 to e98 will have pretty much zero effect on the power your vehicle will make via tune.

 

[mustangcobratim]

65 fastback- do you have any info supporting your claims? because i do believe the ethanol content has a direct correlation to octane rating in the blend.

 

[Danno44]

It is true that for a street car there really is no need to go above E85. I suppose if you were running some crazy setup on the ragged edge the extra margin of safety from the additional ethanol could be worth it. I just bought my E 99 because locally there isnt true E 85 until damn near memorial day. I blended mine down to E 85.

The info on the place I got mine last spring

Santmyer Oil, 3000 Old Airport Road, Wooster, Ohio 44691 | 800-686-4589

 

[mustangcobratim]

yes i agree with you, danno. but 65 fast back said anything above e60 isnt really worth it. i disagree with that statement. i have seen the diffferences in tuning car with say a winter blend e 70 verus a summer e 80 -e83.this is fuel that is in michigan

 

[65fastback2+2]

yes i agree with you, danno. but 65 fast back said anything above e60 isnt really worth it. i disagree with that statement. i have seen the diffferences in tuning car with say a winter blend e 70 verus a summer e 80 -e83.this is fuel that is in michigan

You can disagree, thats fine.

I studied e85 in depth for about 2 weeks solid before putting my previous lightning on it....

so, in light of that, here you go:

It is interesting to note that the blending response of RON and MON as a function of ethanol content is highly nonlinear. There is a substantial octane improvement between RG and E10, and between E10 and E50. However, between E50 and E85 there is very little difference in either RON or MON. It is well-established that properties of ethanolgasoline blends, such as Reid vapor pressure, do have nonlinear responses [4]. Surprisingly, the authors have been unable to find RON and MON measurements as a function of ethanol content that either support or refute these results.

http://delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/2010-01-0619.pdf

another good read if you want to be ethanol knowledgeable: http://www.psfc.mit.edu/library1/catalog/reports/2000/06ja/06ja002/06ja002_full.pdf

 

[65fastback2+2]

also, any fuel besides gasoline cannot have an actual octane rating. It can only be assigned an effective octane rating equivalent.

Its like electric vehicles getting an MPG equivalent rating. Its just that, only a converted rating which doesnt tell the whole story.

 

[65fastback2+2]

Take my lightning for example....

18# of boost...STOCK 2v heads and cams.....I ran 21* of straight timing on it 100% of the time (this was proven via datalogs). We actually tested it up to 23* of timing but found no power results.

Not once in over a year did I EVER test the e85 coming out of the pump. I didnt care if it was e70 or e90...it wasnt going to make a difference. And, that was with what I consider, my truck being run on the ragged edge. No one in their right mind would run 18# and 21* on a 2v...period. I filled it up and went and beat on it on the street, race track, whatever. No testing that bull crap needed. Pump it and go. Anyone telling you to test it does NOT understand how it is different than gasoline and why.

Any small AFR variances from E70 to E90 your vehicles computer will calculate for through the 02's and pull or add fuel as needed.

 

[mustangcobratim]

65- thank you for posting up the information. I will be going the the data completely, as I am converting my 03 to ethanol. So what you are saying is the afr doesn't really matter when running ethanol on a boosted motor? Because i believe it does. You still should have a target afr that will keep the motor"safe". You are correct that"octane" is just a generic term that they use so people can relate it to what they know. realistically speaking pump octane really is generic as well when it comes to pump gas. I believe the only fuel that is not blended is most of vp racing fuel.they are formulated. but i will definently read the information supplied. thanks

 

[65fastback2+2]

65- thank you for posting up the information. I will be going the the data completely, as I am converting my 03 to ethanol. So what you are saying is the afr doesn't really matter when running ethanol on a boosted motor? Because i believe it does. You still should have a target afr that will keep the motor"safe". You are correct that"octane" is just a generic term that they use so people can relate it to what they know. realistically speaking pump octane really is generic as well when it comes to pump gas. I believe the only fuel that is not blended is most of vp racing fuel.they are formulated. but i will definently read the information supplied. thanks

I didnt say that AFR didnt matter.

What i said was, if I put e70 or e90 in my vehicle, and I have a commanded 11.5 AFR, then the vehicle's pcm will ADD or REMOVE fuel as needed to hit commanded AFR. So while the fuel's stoich might slightly change between e70 and e90 (about a single point max), the PCM will add or remove fuel to hit what I have set.

Now, on a carb motor or something, obviously thats not the case, but on a mass air vehicle, especially our cobras, it will indeed adjust to hit commanded.

 

[mustangcobratim]

ok i will agree that our pcm's can move it around(the afr) with various inputs from o2 sensors and such. But that leads the question of- How much can it adjust? I would assume it has a specific range until it goes out of range of the pcm?

 

[65fastback2+2]

ok i will agree that our pcm's can move it around(the afr) with various inputs from o2 sensors and such. But that leads the question of- How much can it adjust? I would assume it has a specific range until it goes out of range of the pcm?

One time I got a check engine light....figured it was due to the ethanol changing during a season. Went to my tuner's (Blankenship ftw!) and he datalogged it and showed me where it was pulling out ~25% fuel from being too rich! He explained a certain amount of adjustment by the pcm was normal but outside of a certain range (I forget) is when the PCM will throw the CEL on but it was still adjusting for me as it was supposed to. We pulled 25% fuel out of it, light went off and I ended up beating on it for another 8 months or so before selling it (including multiple low 12.0 passes at the track!)

So, I have personal experience that it will at least adjust up to 25%!

I dont really see there being a pcm limit....its just adding and removing fuel which it should be able to do without any pcm limitations (there could be mechanical limitations, say youre maxed on fuel and it needs more fuel, it wont be there)

 

[65fastback2+2]

also, you can datalog and see your STFT's are used to calculate and change your LTFT's

 

[65fastback2+2]

STFT's are used during closed loop when the 02's are used for taking AFR readings and used to adjust LTFT's in open loop (wide open throttle, for example) when the 02's arent used.

 

[svtshadow]

Any octane numbers of E98?

 

[BADASS03SVT]

your stock pcm will not change afr depending on the amount of ethonol in your fuel. who ever told you that is incorrect and your lucky your motor is still alove at this moment. Ive seen as much change as .4 from E78 to E85 which is pretty large when your "on the edge". If you were tuned with a higher percentage then youd be fine anyways as it would just go rich with a lower percentage.


as far as Octane there is no "real" number. E85 is shown to be 105 at the pumps but bc its alcohol it has more contributing factors (such as the cooling effects) that make it hard to put a number on it. It will take pretty much anything its thrown into

 

[97crystalwhite]

65fastback- please explain? i know the higher the compression the better the response with ethanol. your saying that people running high compression cars with 20+ psi are not going to gain anything? i beleive i have seen otherwise. i am interested in the detail that support your claim though?

 

[65fastback2+2]

your stock pcm will not change afr depending on the amount of ethonol in your fuel. who ever told you that is incorrect and your lucky your motor is still alove at this moment.

thats not what I said. What I said is it can change fuel input amount to meet commanded AFR, however. Ive seen it with my own eyes.

so if you command 11.5 AFR and you put e85 in it and its e70 and 11.1 AFR (just making up numbers here), it will remove fuel to correct 11.1 AFR back to the 11.5 AFR commanded.

Lucky is beating on it once and it surviving. Theres no luck in multiple track trips and thousands of miles of enjoyment of eaton whine.

 

[65fastback2+2]

65fastback- please explain? i know the higher the compression the better the response with ethanol. your saying that people running high compression cars with 20+ psi are not going to gain anything? i beleive i have seen otherwise. i am interested in the detail that support your claim though?

I have already posted papers from both SAE and MIT....you'll have to read them yourself.

The benefit of E85 is the alcohol. The alcohol has certain things it adds to the fuel...like lower flash points, amount of oxygen supplied (ethanol is oxygenated) as well as several other things. The benefits of adding 10% more alcohol (from e75 to e85 for example) sharply drop off as the benefits are non-linear. The non-linear drop off starts sharply after 50% alcohol.