E98?

sn94cobra

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I had my car remote/street tuned on pump e85. Never once have I checked it. I run 20-21lbs of boost and 23 degrees of timing. The cars comes out of storage, driven to the tack and beat on, then put away.
Thing just keeps going without missing a beat.
 

BADASS03SVT

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thats not what I said. What I said is it can change fuel input amount to meet commanded AFR, however. Ive seen it with my own eyes.

so if you command 11.5 AFR and you put e85 in it and its e70 and 11.1 AFR (just making up numbers here), it will remove fuel to correct 11.1 AFR back to the 11.5 AFR commanded.

Lucky is beating on it once and it surviving. Theres no luck in multiple track trips and thousands of miles of enjoyment of eaton whine.

the pcm cannot read ethanol content which is why they have those in flex fuel cars, to let the pcm adjust for inconsistency. When tuned you tell the pcm what fuel you are using with its stoich. For E85 is roughly around 9.7. If you put in a different fuel with a different stoich the WOT a/f will change. The pcm doesnt know the difference between E70 and E85. It only adjusts from the sensors that we have like IAT, IAT2, MAF, TPS etc. What you are saying is you could put 93 in it and C16 and the pcm would keep the same a/f, it will not.

If you tuned with a higher ethanol content you will always be "fine" using lower content so unless you got tuned in the dead of winter, you probably wont have an issue
 

sohc_mshue

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I have already posted papers from both SAE and MIT....you'll have to read them yourself.

The benefit of E85 is the alcohol. The alcohol has certain things it adds to the fuel...like lower flash points, amount of oxygen supplied (ethanol is oxygenated) as well as several other things. The benefits of adding 10% more alcohol (from e75 to e85 for example) sharply drop off as the benefits are non-linear. The non-linear drop off starts sharply after 50% alcohol.
Closed loop O2 control may take care of the fuel to a certain extent, but timing will not be properly trimmed. The engine will not likely be running at an optimal spark advance if running a different ethanol percentage than what it was tuned on.
 

65fastback2+2

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If you tuned with a higher ethanol content you will always be "fine" using lower content so unless you got tuned in the dead of winter, you probably wont have an issue

bingo. if you get tuned on summer e85 or even e98, come winter, your tune only goes slightly richer (usually less than 1/2 point AFR though it could be as much as 1 point AFR). This is less important on ethanol because of all the protection factors. My lightning was tuned to 11.6 AFR. Furthermore, because of oxygenation, ethanol doesnt mind being slightly richer.

Closed loop O2 control may take care of the fuel to a certain extent, but timing will not be properly trimmed. The engine will not likely be running at an optimal spark advance if running a different ethanol percentage than what it was tuned on.

A YEAR after having my lightning tuned on e85...the entire time not checking ethanol content and driving the thing how it was meant to be, my datalogs showed 21* of timing crossing the line at the drag strip....exactly how it was supposed to.

Im not 100% a mechanical genius...but I know how I asked my tuner to set my lightning, I know how I drove it and I know what the datalogs showed

and I know how it performed vs. a 93 octane truck with same mods

[youtube_browser]vfcUdZbVHa0[/youtube_browser]
[youtube_browser]kX0CzoGL15w[/youtube_browser]
 
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sohc_mshue

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A YEAR after having my lightning tuned on e85...the entire time not checking ethanol content and driving the thing how it was meant to be, my datalogs showed 21* of timing crossing the line at the drag strip....exactly how it was supposed to.

Im not 100% a mechanical genius...but I know how I asked my tuner to set my lightning, I know how I drove it and I know what the datalogs showed

and I know how it performed vs. a 93 octane truck with same mods
QUOTE]

Of course your timing stayed the same...this is because it is not being trimmed for a different ethanol content. This does not mean that you are running the correct timing for whatever ethanol content you have in the tank. It is only correct if you are running what you were tuned on. Being overadvanced might not always cause detonation particuarly when running highly knock resistant fuels, but it could be costing you power and bringing you closer to the edge of being unsafe.

All i'm saying is don't assume you can dump whatever in your tank and the tune will be just fine. I can assure you that flex fuel vehicles do not run a fixed amount of timing for 60-100% ethanol.
 

BADASS03SVT

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It's not going to change af period. You skipped over that part of my post for some reason...
 

65fastback2+2

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Of course your timing stayed the same...this is because it is not being trimmed for a different ethanol content. This does not mean that you are running the correct timing for whatever ethanol content you have in the tank. It is only correct if you are running what you were tuned on. Being overadvanced might not always cause detonation particuarly when running highly knock resistant fuels, but it could be costing you power and bringing you closer to the edge of being unsafe.

All i'm saying is don't assume you can dump whatever in your tank and the tune will be just fine. I can assure you that flex fuel vehicles do not run a fixed amount of timing for 60-100% ethanol.

the timing something likes is based only a tiny bit on fuel. Its mostly based on the mechanical aspects of what the cams like with their duration, etc.

E85 increases dynamic compression a little and theres other small variances, but otherwise, the motor performs best at certain timing. If it makes peak power at 21*, chances are it makes peak power there no matter the fuel (provided it wont detonate there).

Anyhow, been there done that....went 12.09 on my "incorrect tune" (lol) first time at the track flashing the stall only shifting it at stock rpm.

You can argue it may not have been 100% but only 98% as far as the tune goes, but for nearly everyone...they arent going to notice 1-2 hp or such.

Just like everyone claims E98 is better than E85 till I whipped out the SAE and MIT white papers...I dont know how many countless times Ive been told "thats not right"....well, I did it and did it for OVER a year. So, something was indeed right.
 
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Mike Croley

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The difference between E-98 and E-60 in a computer controlled EFI application won't be very big as far as performance is concerned. But when ethanol content drops, octane drops. So if you're close to detonation or pre-ignition on E-85, the drop to E-60 or E-70 could have consequences.
It's always a good idea to check the fuel for ethanol content each time you buy it. It's easy to do and very inexpensive.
The cooling effect of alcohol fuels can help make up for small drops in octane, but it's still a good idea to know where you're at.
 
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sohc_mshue

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the timing something likes is based only a tiny bit on fuel. Its mostly based on the mechanical aspects of what the cams like with their duration, etc.

E85 increases dynamic compression a little and theres other small variances, but otherwise, the motor performs best at certain timing. If it makes peak power at 21*, chances are it makes peak power there no matter the fuel (provided it wont detonate there).

Anyhow, been there done that....went 12.09 on my "incorrect tune" (lol) first time at the track flashing the stall only shifting it at stock rpm.

You can argue it may not have been 100% but only 98% as far as the tune goes, but for nearly everyone...they arent going to notice 1-2 hp or such.

Just like everyone claims E98 is better than E85 till I whipped out the SAE and MIT white papers...I dont know how many countless times Ive been told "thats not right"....well, I did it and did it for OVER a year. So, something was indeed right.
I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong about timing being only based a little bit on the kind of fuel you are using. Think about how different fuel can affect burn speed...

I can assure you that mbt occurs at a much higher timing value using say c16 vs. pump 93.

Also engines do not typically like a fixed timing value throughout the powerband at WOT. Sure it might work, but that does not mean you should do it.
 

65fastback2+2

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The difference between E-98 and E-60 in a computer controlled EFI application won't be very big as far as performance is concerned. But when ethanol content drops, octane drops. So if you're close to detonation or pre-ignition on E-85, the drop to E-60 or E-70 could have consequences.
It's always a good idea to check the fuel for ethanol content each time you buy it. It's easy to do and very inexpensive.
The cooling effect of alcohol fuels can help make up for small drops in octane, but it's still a good idea to know where you're at.

You can know where you're at if you want. Go read the tons of threads about 1500hp 25+ psi turbo non-intercooled vehicles running 200, 210, 220+ IAT's all on e85...getting the stuff to detonate is INSANELY hard...Ive only read one story of someone getting slight detonation and they were literally tuning a high compression high power motor with the ONLY intentions to see if they could make ethanol detonate. they only noticed a slight drop in power and never once could they get it to fully detonate.

I certainly did not just pump e85 and not check it into my truck that was tuned VERY VERY aggressively for over a year and "just got lucky"...I have a good grasp on how the stuff works, what makes it special, etc.

I didnt even run a wideband on my vehicle either. Why? If something was going to happen while on e85, it is certainly nothing a wideband was going to keep from happening....we're talking fuel pump failure while WOT or some catastrophic mechanical failure.

Im just not talking in here and blowing smoke...I am talking of stuff I did and did for a VERY long period of time.

I'm sorry, but you are flat out wrong about timing being only based a little bit on the kind of fuel you are using. Think about how different fuel can affect burn speed...

I can assure you that mbt occurs at a much higher timing value using say c16 vs. pump 93.

Also engines do not typically like a fixed timing value throughout the powerband at WOT. Sure it might work, but that does not mean you should do it.

Here's the problem and why I am right....you're thinking of ethanol (alcohol) here in GASOLINE terms. You cant do that...they dont equate in any way except they can explode and power a vehicle. Remember, the changes in the alcohol level after 50% sharply drop off and are very non-linear. E60, E70, E85...all MBT's are going to be almost completely identical.

The reason C16 has MBT occur at a higher timing value than 93 is because 93 will detonate BEFORE the mechanical properties of the motor can reach MBT.

With ethanol over 60% alcohol content, this does not occur (well, technically it does, but the difference is so minute its not really even worth mentioning). This is why I never checked ethanol content...I didnt care if it was e70 or e1million....the properties of the fuel do NOT change directly relating to the percentage of the fuel.

And yes, most engines wont like straight timing....we actually ran 18* up to about 3000 rpm and then it jumped from 18* to 21* from 3000 rpm to where we shifted at 5200 rpm. We tried all the way up to 23* and 12.0 AFR on 18#'s but it mechanically wouldnt make any more power on the 1.8L eaton.
 

99 GT vert

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i know the OP already got his e98 but for anyone else that needs it in the future ignite racing fuels sells it for 225 for a 55 gallon drum picked up in Marion Indiana
 

Mike Croley

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Yes, i do want to know exactly where i'm at with fuel. So does the rest of the performance world. Too much money and time invested in my truck to ignore what goes into the tank. The fact that someone claims to have made big power on E-98 doesn't mean i'm automatically going to buy in to their claim. E-gas is a low cost option for street driven performance cars.
By the way, the guys making big power with alcohol are using Methanol. Makes more power and torque than ethanol and costs much less.
 

sohc_mshue

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Here's the problem and why I am right....you're thinking of ethanol (alcohol) here in GASOLINE terms. You cant do that...they dont equate in any way except they can explode and power a vehicle. Remember, the changes in the alcohol level after 50% sharply drop off and are very non-linear. E60, E70, E85...all MBT's are going to be almost completely identical.

The reason C16 has MBT occur at a higher timing value than 93 is because 93 will detonate BEFORE the mechanical properties of the motor can reach MBT.

With ethanol over 60% alcohol content, this does not occur (well, technically it does, but the difference is so minute its not really even worth mentioning). This is why I never checked ethanol content...I didnt care if it was e70 or e1million....the properties of the fuel do NOT change directly relating to the percentage of the fuel.
Every engine is going to be different with respect to mbt and different percentages of alcohol and no it will not necessarily be linear. I was just saying that your statement about FUEL having little affect on mbt was wrong.

C16 wanting more timing because an engine is knock limited on 93 is not always the case. There are many engines that are not knock limited on 93 and will still want a significant increase in timing running C16 or other high octane fuels. Heck even with C16 and Ethanol being both pretty knock resistant an engine will still want different timing running one vs. the other.

If one fuel burns slower than another then the slower burning fuel will want to be ignited earlier to achieve peak cylinder pressures at the proper crank angle after tdc for best power.
 

Turbo98

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65 is right on with regard to the properties of Ethanol. I've also studied it for years and have studied those white papers. Good stuff. That's one reason I'm going to a stand alone. Then I can mix a 50/50 mix and still run full boost/timing with no changes other than the amount of fuel injected. The only two 4V's I've seen that have blown up on Ethanol were both running E98.
 

Turbo98

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It was heat/detonation. I think part of the issue with E98 is that it is harder to light than E85. Then a misfire under a lot of boost can blow it up. E85 has been proven to extreme boost/power. Look at the Evo guys. They run like 40 PSI. Personally, I see no need to run straight E98.
 

Mike Croley

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So what we're saying here is when you combine two completely different things, adding far more of one of those things has virtually no effect at all above 50% mix? I can't think of any other compound where that would be true. And if that really were true, why run anything over E-50? According to the posts in this thread, there would be no noticeable difference in performance or detonation protection above E-50. So the guys with E-85 thru E-98 should save themselves a bundle and blend down to E-50?
These arguments seem to be based off of a paper written by a company who's trying to make money by switching people to ethanol fuels. And the conclusions this company came to are based not on testing pump gasoline with ethanol added to it, but with engineered reference fuel from a specialty company that then has ethanol added to it.
Sorry, i'm not sold for high horsepower, high compression applications just yet.
 
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Turbo98

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So what we're saying here is when you combine two completely different things, adding far more of one of those things has virtually no effect at all above 50% mix? I can't think of any other compound where that would be true. And if that really were true, why run anything over E-50? According to the posts in this thread, there would be no noticeable difference in performance or detonation protection above E-50. So the guys with E-85 thru E-98 should save themselves a bundle and blend down to E-50?
These arguments seem to be based off of a paper written by a company who's trying to make money by switching people to ethanol fuels. And the conclusions this company came to are based not on testing pump gasoline with ethanol added to it, but with engineered reference fuel from a specialty company that then has ethanol added to it.
Sorry, i'm not sold for high horsepower, high compression applications just yet.
At some point, I plan on blending down to E50 and seeing how it does. I have a great cylinder by cylinder knock system in place, an Ethanol conent analyzer, large fuel system, high boost potential, and great datalogging capabilities. This will most likely be done on a dyno to measure the power also. I tend to believe the data on the white papers because with this fuel, you have to think outside the box. It's WAY different than pure gasoline.
 

Mike Croley

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Yeah, ethanol behaves very differently from gasoline, although i think a lot of the difference is pretty much smoke and mirrors by people who want to sell you special parts and pieces. Ethanol is just alcohol, just like methanol. And methanol has been used in race engines for 70 years or more. The difference is that methanol can be used at 100% , while ethanol has to be cut with 87 octane to get it to light. And that's where some of the special tuning comes in because you're having to put alcohol AND 87 pump gas through the motor.
 

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