Blew up my motor

[mystickb1996]

Thank you. We have always felt that we want customers long term, and not just for this go around. This means offering a better product, and better serve. Unfortunately most companies/shops do not think about 10 years from now, they're thinking about paying their bills for the next few months.



No one here lied to you. Again, just because they're stamped, does not mean that we can trust they actually came from those locations. We would go through, sort them, put them on, check cam spin, and sizing, because we need to be certain about things that get our name affiliated with them. If the end user has an engine torn apart that they bought used and wants to throw it together, then so be it. But we hold ourselves to a higher standard. If someone doesn't want that level of care and detail, then we aren't the shop for them. We fully realize we cannot be everything to everyone, and while we want everyone to desire our services, we would never lower our standards for someone to hit a price point they expect.

Now thats a little much, i understand your extreme attention to detail and being from the detroit area originally i know your rep. but saying there stamped with the correct locations but you dont trust that ford stamped them right is pushing it. Now from a business standpoint your profitability would be huge on those 3 hours. So you would sort to the stamps then put them on in correlation with the stamps then spin. sound like your using those little stamps that ford put there for a reason. just to add i respect the cleanliness and detail in your shop, and you have had some amazing builds also

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Now thats a little much, i understand your extreme attention to detail and being from the detroit area originally i know your rep. but saying there stamped with the correct locations but you dont trust that ford stamped them right is pushing it. Now from a business standpoint your profitability would be huge on those 3 hours. So you would sort to the stamps then put them on in correlation with the stamps then spin. sound like your using those little stamps that ford put there for a reason. just to add i respect the cleanliness and detail in your shop, and you have had some amazing builds also

if you look back, I had amended the post (before you had posted this) to explain that we couldn't trust that they came from those locations on THAT set of heads. they were cam caps in a box, off of the engine. How do we know they're from that engine? it was bought used, and brought to us by someone other than who did the tear-down already, so at best, we are trusting the guy who offloaded the engine, not even the guy who owned it at that point.

 

[Quad4_72]

I have been following this thread very carefully and reading the posts. I was ready to rule out Livernois for a motor build which I am looking to do in the near future, but their meticulous responses in the thread have been impressive. I am not like others in here who know in depth mechanics about motors, so I will be putting basically all my trust in a company to build it right. Seeing how much they seem to stand by their work and are even still willing to check out the motor in the OP says a lot about the company. May be giving you a call in the near future Livernois!

 

[Don's Bolt]

when I received the motor, and found the compression was not what I wanted, I tried to send the motor back, and have them refund all my money. They refused, I was stuck in a bad situation, I should have sent it back, and fought for a refund.

I had the hardest time dealing with them, never returning calls, making me call numerous times, while trying to resolve the issue with the compression, finally I caved in. It took over a week to get any kind of return calls, they wanted to offer my $500 for a engine that wasn't built the way I wanted. Yes they offered to have it shipped back to them, and rebuild it, but not just take it back.

After it failed, I asked them to do something, anything for me, but the best I could get was a quote for $13,500

I asked them if they would help me with parts to rebuild the motor, I am not asking them to pay for it all, but at least help me get back on my feet. If they had offered me anything to show they cared about me, I would never had posted here

I have been active here since 2001 with my lightning, I had a JDM engine fail on me before, they stood up and helped me get it rebuilt. No they didn't do it for free, but helped me a lot more than what's happening now

If you look at all the posts I have made this is the first time I have ever made a post like this, and all I can say is this has been the worst experience I have ever had,

Looks I am going to have to pay for a new motor, 100% out of my pocket, and I am glad to be rid of dealing with these guys ever again

 

[Weather Man]

Now thats a little much, i understand your extreme attention to detail and being from the detroit area originally i know your rep. but saying there stamped with the correct locations but you dont trust that ford stamped them right is pushing it. Now from a business standpoint your profitability would be huge on those 3 hours. So you would sort to the stamps then put them on in correlation with the stamps then spin. sound like your using those little stamps that ford put there for a reason. just to add i respect the cleanliness and detail in your shop, and you have had some amazing builds also

The policy came into being because you only have to be bent over on eating stuff so many times. Between honest mix ups and outright theft by swindle I'm sure they learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago.

 

[Don's Bolt]

When I called Livernois to discuss the build I wanted

I told them I wanted Boss 302 heads, Boss 302R cams, I was specific wanting Boss 302 heads
The Boss 302 R Cams were back ordered, so I told them just use regular Boss 302 cams
well they talked me out of those, and convinced me to go Comp Stage 2 SC cams, but never told me they were going to be locking out the cams. If I knew that I would have said no way, as my car is 95 % a street car

Then they changed the Boss heads to there own ported heads

Also when we put the motor in, and I went for a test ride, something was wrong. Livernois gave us permission to see what was wrong, We found a secondary chain tensioner that never pumped up. That's when we discovered they put lockout on the phasors. I had asked them about that when I discovered the compression mix up, as I also noticed the invoice that came with the motor said cam phasor lockouts, but they assured me it was a misprint, and had limiters. Well we did find lockouts

So yes some of what they said was right, but they left out a lot of what happened. They built the motor the way they wanted not the way I asked

 

[HISSMAN]

If this pistons were hitting the head from the beginning, I doubt that the crank would have ever turned a single rotation in it's life without lifting a head. That would have been noticed pretty quick.

 

[Don's Bolt]

If this pistons were hitting the head from the beginning, I doubt that the crank would have ever turned a single rotation in it's life without lifting a head. That would have been noticed pretty quick.

I think they were rocking in the cylinders from the beginning, it only has like 2500 miles on it, and 1300 of that was driving back from florida

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

when I received the motor, and found the compression was not what I wanted, I tried to send the motor back, and have them refund all my money. They refused, I was stuck in a bad situation, I should have sent it back, and fought for a refund.

During the build process, there were many changes that were requested, and approved. With so many changes along the way, the compression got changed. Instead of ignoring it, we gave numerous solutions as to what we could do to address it. Sending the engine back for a full refund because of something we could remedy was simply not an option since it was built to your specifications, beyond the potential miscommunication along the way, and we had numerous attempts on our end to address it. None of which, regardless of how much we were legitimately trying to help, were accepted by you. Ultimately, speaking to us, and others, you agreed to keep the engine compression ratio as is.

Now, just again, to reiterate, we were told your biggest stipulation was having the engine turned around in a week and a half. We offered a solution to have it done in under a week's time. Initially you agreed, and then told us that still wasn't fast enough not 10 minutes after hanging up the phone.

I had the hardest time dealing with them, never returning calls, making me call numerous times, while trying to resolve the issue with the compression, finally I caved in. It took over a week to get any kind of return calls, they wanted to offer my $500 for a engine that wasn't built the way I wanted. Yes they offered to have it shipped back to them, and rebuild it, but not just take it back.

I am not certain how this can be the case. What must be allowed is ample time to return a call. Expecting an answer on something that management, ownership, and multiple departments need to coordinate on cannot be done in a short amount of time. We let you know we would need some time to come up with some solutions, ideas, etc. So calling less than an hour later is not quite a fair situation. We let you know if it was something that would take a few hours, or a few days to find out. So if we said it would be a few days, and you called 3 hours later, that isn't us forcing you to call.

After it failed, I asked them to do something, anything for me, but the best I could get was a quote for $13,500

Your estimate was what we deemed a worst case estimate. We can't put something together without having the parts here. That was openly communicated with you. so, we revamped the quote as if nothing you sent would be usable at all. Now, we hope that isn't the case, but that is impossible to know beforehand. And we definitely aren't going to do a quote that doesn't take that into account.

I asked them if they would help me with parts to rebuild the motor, I am not asking them to pay for it all, but at least help me get back on my feet. If they had offered me anything to show they cared about me, I would never had posted here

This is something we have communicated to you since moment 1. We care deeply about our customers, we even took the time out to explain to you why you are seeing these parts failed in your engine. Unfortunately it seems like every time we let you know the truth behind things, it eventually circles back to trying to put the blame on us. Unfortunately we didn't tune it. Every ounce of evidence we have seen is coming back to detonation. Broken timing gear. Collapsed piston skirts. Piston being able to rock in the bore enough to tag the head. This is all tune related. Something we know you struggled with since there was discussion about us tuning it.

I have been active here since 2001 with my lightning, I had a JDM engine fail on me before, they stood up and helped me get it rebuilt. No they didn't do it for free, but helped me a lot more than what's happening now

We are willing to help, but the engine didn't fail from something we did, or didn't do. Even with that being said, we have tried to help this whole time.

If you look at all the posts I have made this is the first time I have ever made a post like this, and all I can say is this has been the worst experience I have ever had,

We are definitely sorry you feel that way. We are just confused as to why. There isn't a builder on the planet that would have offered to drive over 4500 miles, plus turn around a build in 3-4 days, to appease a customer.

Looks I am going to have to pay for a new motor, 100% out of my pocket, and I am glad to be rid of dealing with these guys ever again

Again, this isn't the case. We offered to do our best with helping, but we need the engine to at least look at and verify our findings. We stand behind what we build. If we mess up, we admit it, address it, correct it, and do everything we can to help customer's out. If we didn't mess up, we still try to help the customer out.

The policy came into being because you only have to be bent over on eating stuff so many times. Between honest mix ups and outright theft by swindle I'm sure they learned that lesson the hard way a long time ago.

This is exactly why. Unfortunately the bad ones ruin it for the good ones. Being we are viewed as a big company, we are a bigger target. It's unfortunate because we pride ourselves on honesty, even when honesty is not what people want to hear. But we definitely won't get ourselves into a situation that is guaranteed to burn us.

When I called Livernois to discuss the build I wanted

I told them I wanted Boss 302 heads, Boss 302R cams, I was specific wanting Boss 302 heads
The Boss 302 R Cams were back ordered, so I told them just use regular Boss 302 cams
well they talked me out of those, and convinced me to go Comp Stage 2 SC cams, but never told me they were going to be locking out the cams. If I knew that I would have said no way, as my car is 95 % a street car

Unfortunately even your own post shows that this changed. The estimate was never done with boss heads, you can see it on your post. It was always our stage 2 heads. Initially it started out with no aftermarket cams, then you added cams. Production Boss cams were discussed because, but we felt they were a poor combination with the 302R intake cams. The comps were selected, and then agreed upon by you because they are almost exactly the same spec as the cams you wanted, and they were available unlike the 302R cams.

Then they changed the Boss heads to there own ported heads

Again, your estimate, and your invoice are both our stage 2 heads. Boss heads were never quoted. it was our stage 2 head from the word go.

Also when we put the motor in, and I went for a test ride, something was wrong. Livernois gave us permission to see what was wrong, We found a secondary chain tensioner that never pumped up. That's when we discovered they put lockout on the phasors. I had asked them about that when I discovered the compression mix up, as I also noticed the invoice that came with the motor said cam phasor lockouts, but they assured me it was a misprint, and had limiters. Well we did find lockouts

We never give permission to tear into an engine by anyone other than ourselves, it's right in the warranty documentation. We might have stated what we thought it could have been based on description, but that does not give permission to tear into it. Even with this said, no one here is saying that you are automatically denied anything because of it. But we are being blamed for almost everything possible, yet it's not like we were the only ones in the engine.

As for the lockouts, they were also on your revamped estimate before work was begun, and on your invoice. I don't know how to answer why you didn't know they were in there.

So yes some of what they said was right, but they left out a lot of what happened. They built the motor the way they wanted not the way I asked

We are here to guide our customers, and help them on their path. Sometimes this means doing as we did, and conversing with you on why we would recommend a certain path over another. Beyond the compression ratio change, absolutely everything was agreed upon by you upfront, with the compression ratio change being agreed upon after the fact as ultimately being the best choice for your combo.

If this pistons were hitting the head from the beginning, I doubt that the crank would have ever turned a single rotation in it's life without lifting a head. That would have been noticed pretty quick.

Agreed, there is absolutely no way an engine would have turned over if this were the case.

I think they were rocking in the cylinders from the beginning, it only has like 2500 miles on it, and 1300 of that was driving back from florida

Unfortunately if the tune was bad, it very easily could have happened quickly. We have seen engines destroyed without ever leaving the driveway from an improper tune. It's unfortunate, but it happens far too often that the most important part of a build is the part people want to price shop the most on. Yet a proper tune can save people thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars in the long run, and people still go with the $100 mail order tune, $300 dyno tune, instead of spending $1500-2000 on a tune that someone spends days and days of time on, one on one with the car.

 

[Don's Bolt]

I called Dan Chandler last week he never called back
I left a message on 09/28/15 took till 10/02/15 to get any reply. Then talked to Jamie on 10/13/15 it took till the 20th to get back, I replied to his e-mail that day, never got a reply

It was the same way in January, call on a Monday, wait till that Friday to get any reply
If I called from my cell would go right to Jamies voice mail, if I called from a cell phone with a different area code, Jamie would answer

Yes I left lots of voice mails back in January, but it was because I felt I was getting ignored, so if you don't return calls, I had no choice taking things into my own hands. It took over two weeks to get you to agree to anything back then. By the time of the offer to ship the motor back it was almost 2 weeks. If you had offered that right away, I may have shipped it to you

I am so through with you

 

[06colorado]

Always two sides of every story. And every individual seems to take things and understand things a little diffrent. Sorry but I seem to focus on things that really don't matter, but the vendor says no piston is ever going to be Exactly the same. Yet the build sheet shows all 8 pistons being accurate to .0001. I'm no machinist but that's pretty Damn close, actually exact to that sheet. Seems like a motor that was tossed together on a Friday if a engine builder doesn't take the time to properly measure and document those important tolerances. $.02

 

['14 Shelby]

The Best Company: L & M Motors in Hatboro!

Lol

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...ttle-boost-does-it-takes-to-build-a-1000-RWHP

Long read but worth it. These guys are scumbags. If you consider using them, do yourself a favor and read this thread

 

[Turboba6]

Lol

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...ttle-boost-does-it-takes-to-build-a-1000-RWHP

Long read but worth it. These guys are scumbags. If you consider using them, do yourself a favor and read this thread

I read that, However I Have Thier Motor, In my car, and for the Last three years its been great...Guess I got Lucky??

 

['14 Shelby]

I read that, However I Have Thier Motor, In my car, and for the Last three years its been great...Guess I got Lucky??

I guess you did. Anyone who tries to run you over at a public event because they put wrong parts in your motor = scum. Not to mention neither company made good on the wrong

 

[DSG2003Mach1]

so when do we get pictures of the pistons and stuff out of the motor to see if it detonated or not?

It sounds like the offer to fix the compression ratio is true and sounds more than fair if theyre werent asking you to pay for anything, a full refund is a little ridiculous IMHO. Was the fact that the motor was "always loud" ever addressed with Livernois and was there ever any response? I can see them not being happy about someone else digging into the motor

 

[Grabber]

Based on what I am reading, you approved of the invoices.

Livernois to date is still trying to make good with you. Why not give them a 2nd chance and let them make good on this rather than get all pissed off and start a bigger fight than it needs to be?

No one company is perfect, but, the fact that Livernois is taking this amount of time and going through this amount of effort, not to fight or argue with you, but, to apologize, STILL make offers to help you goes along way. You should be happy that you didn't get screwed by some of the companies on SVTP that mess things up for their customer's and don't offer to help (Rick @ Amazon, Modern Muscle from years ago, etc)

I know you're frustrated OP, but, you should keep an open mind on this. I realize you're pissed and thousands in the whole. But, you have the chance to let Livernois make it right and they will take care of getting the motor to/from you and check things out. I'd take it while I could rather than walking away and starting fresh which will impact your financials even further.

 

[DaBigBone]

Still not sure why OP hasn't just sent the motor back and let them look at it.

 

[Russo]

Still not sure why OP hasn't just sent the motor back and let them look at it.

Livernois, just like every big shop, employs people for the sole purpose of mitigating bad reputation.. there is big $$$ in avoiding reponsibility.. like in my case, when Livernois didn't tune my truck correctly, as soon as they knew i used an o2 extention, they washed their hands and blasted Stainless Works..

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I called Dan Chandler last week he never called back
I left a message on 09/28/15 took till 10/02/15 to get any reply. Then talked to Jamie on 10/13/15 it took till the 20th to get back, I replied to his e-mail that day, never got a reply

It was the same way in January, call on a Monday, wait till that Friday to get any reply
If I called from my cell would go right to Jamies voice mail, if I called from a cell phone with a different area code, Jamie would answer

Yes I left lots of voice mails back in January, but it was because I felt I was getting ignored, so if you don't return calls, I had no choice taking things into my own hands. It took over two weeks to get you to agree to anything back then. By the time of the offer to ship the motor back it was almost 2 weeks. If you had offered that right away, I may have shipped it to you

I am so through with you

I know that Dan Millen has talked to you numerous times, but I am not certain why you would have left Dan Chandler a message. He is in the purchasing department. As for the timeline on getting a call back, I am not certain how that ads up. You had an estimate on the 20th, one that was worked on for multiple days trying to source information gathered from conversations about the failure. I know of at least 4 discussions about the engine failure that have taken place with you before the quote process was even brought.

As you can understand we want to help, but we need to make certain the information we have for you is clear, with zero chances of misunderstanding (or as close as we can get) to make certain we are on the same page. What we don't need is a misunderstanding happening and repeating the situation last year where you brought one of our accountants to tears with the way you spoke to her.

Always two sides of every story. And every individual seems to take things and understand things a little diffrent. Sorry but I seem to focus on things that really don't matter, but the vendor says no piston is ever going to be Exactly the same. Yet the build sheet shows all 8 pistons being accurate to .0001. I'm no machinist but that's pretty Damn close, actually exact to that sheet. Seems like a motor that was tossed together on a Friday if a engine builder doesn't take the time to properly measure and document those important tolerances. $.02

While our pistons are never the exact same size, we are talking about past this point. If you look at the person who assembled the engine, he has been here nearly 10 years, and in that 10 years has show he is one of the most meticulous engine builders out there. One thing he would never do is falsify information. In fact, his standards of work are so high, he sometimes worries about variances smaller than .00005. Why? Because he want's anything with our name to be perfect. So when we tell someone we put 40-50 hours into a shortblock alone (not counting balancing) you can see why.

so when do we get pictures of the pistons and stuff out of the motor to see if it detonated or not?

It sounds like the offer to fix the compression ratio is true and sounds more than fair if theyre werent asking you to pay for anything, a full refund is a little ridiculous IMHO. Was the fact that the motor was "always loud" ever addressed with Livernois and was there ever any response? I can see them not being happy about someone else digging into the motor

As much as we would love to see that, I don't know if we will ever get that info. But from what we can piece together, it all adds up and points to exactly that. Detonation. The unfortunate thing is while we are being painted as the ultimate evil, the multiple calibrators that worked on it before will likely never have a thread devoted to them for how their tune failed their engine. Instead, it's simply go after the most expensive part because it's the easiest to put blame on. People assume that because our engines are not cheap, that we just have money to light on fire when their tuner causes them trauma. Often times reusing the same tuner through multiple engine failures, and repeatedly blaming every engine builder they deal with whether they had a hand in it failing or not.

Based on what I am reading, you approved of the invoices.

Livernois to date is still trying to make good with you. Why not give them a 2nd chance and let them make good on this rather than get all pissed off and start a bigger fight than it needs to be?

No one company is perfect, but, the fact that Livernois is taking this amount of time and going through this amount of effort, not to fight or argue with you, but, to apologize, STILL make offers to help you goes along way. You should be happy that you didn't get screwed by some of the companies on SVTP that mess things up for their customer's and don't offer to help (Rick @ Amazon, Modern Muscle from years ago, etc)

I know you're frustrated OP, but, you should keep an open mind on this. I realize you're pissed and thousands in the whole. But, you have the chance to let Livernois make it right and they will take care of getting the motor to/from you and check things out. I'd take it while I could rather than walking away and starting fresh which will impact your financials even further.

Unfortunately that ship sailed long ago on the compression ratio change. We honestly worked for days on end trying to find something that worked. Everytime we offered a solution that fit in the timetable we were given, the timetable got shorter, and shorter. Even when it got to needing it quicker than a week and a half we had solutions, but all of which were turned down.

It all worked out in the long run since he decided to keep the 11.5:1 engine off of our recommendation, and the recommendation of others outside of the company as well.

Still not sure why OP hasn't just sent the motor back and let them look at it.

To be completely honest, we aren't either. We aren't certain why it's a hot and cold situation. It went from knowing it wasn't our fault, to saying it was, back to accepting detonation caused the failure, and then back to where we are today.

Livernois, just like every big shop, employs people for the sole purpose of mitigating bad reputation.. there is big $$$ in avoiding reponsibility.. like in my case, when Livernois didn't tune my truck correctly, as soon as they knew i used an o2 extention, they washed their hands and blasted Stainless Works..

I think you are overestimating how big we are. We might not be a 5 man shop, but we do not have a customer service person. What we have are people that might know more about certain situations than others (I mean, isn't that everywhere though?) but the information given to you is factual. Look up the rampant amount of o2 sensor related troubles on 11+ ford vehicles. It won't take more than a 3 second google search to see there are pages and pages of issues with the wideband ford sensors and o2 extensions. from bad o2's, to misfires, to lost engines. I mean you had another vendor come in here and even say they personally lost an engine to faulty o2 extensions, and you are still trying to say it's our fault.

The real issue here is you found someone to tell you what you wanted to hear. But that person is using software to read a tune out that isn't structured like a Ford OEM tune, but the software is dumb. It doesn't know you've remapped table locations, or edited things that aren't mapped out in that software. It looks for an address in the ECM, and it's definition file tells it what that address does. Then it looks at the hex values in that address and converts it to what the decompiler tells it it should be. The problem is, the decompiler is translating it based on ford road maps, which are not applicable to our road maps.

I am sorry that your o2 sensor ended up wiping out an engine, but since these are wideband, if the o2 sensor is reporting the wrong values to the ECM, it's going to give it improper fueling based on those improper values. So if it read's that it's .60 when it's supposed to be .80 it's going to lean it out. But if it was actually .90 then it's leaned it out instead of richening it up. And then pop, there goes your engine.

This is the advantage of doing more than just tuning. More than just engine builds. And more than just installs. We know every single aspect of the vehicle, how they play together, and what system can impact another. So our experiences in the shop, teach us ways to better help and understand situations that we run into when we are dealing with customers who are not here at our facility. It also allows us to avoid finger pointing and figure out the real issues at hand, where as most of the aftermarket just points fingers at each other and moves on.

Edit: I want to be VERY clear on this. We never blasted Stainless works. We are a dealer for their products. We blasted EVERY o2 extension made for these engines. Period.

 

[Gabe9195]

I wonder what the tuner's story is in this whole ordeal.
Don blames Livernois, Livernois blames the tuner.
Who's the tuner blaming?