Anyone wire a BAP with return style fuel system?

[Jpjr]

I've had a number of people tell me that a BAP is not required for return style, but I am wondering 1) if anyone out there has included it, 2) why, and 3) how did you wire it up?

I'm leaning towards not using it but am curious if anyone has used it with a return setup...

 

[Jpjr]

bump

 

[SVT GI]

Why? No need for a BAP in a return style.

You are not suppose to be using Cobra or GT pumps in a return style. Walbros are made to run full voltage all the time, that way your regulator sets the fuel pressure and is boost activated to increase fuel pressure at WOT. So if they are running full time, no need for a BAP. Dual Walbros are good for 800-850hp+ in a return.

 

[yellow03vert]

I would like to know also. I am getting ready to get the dual walbro set up and thought about adding a BAP since I already have one. I thought it would help if I decide to go E85.

 

[SVT GI]

No need for a BAP in a return. I've never used one but if I remember they are wired to the FPDM(s). In a return style fuel system, the FPDMs are bypassed.

As far as E85 in a return style, just step up your injectors. My next winters project is to convert both Cobras to E85 and all I'm doing is going from 60s to 80s and a retune of course. If using E85 in a returnless, it might be a good idea to use a BAP.

OP, sell the BAP and put it towards your return parts.

 

[hpbyhermann]

I use a BAP in very high hp return setups.

Came in handy for me before! Gained back enough volume to be safe on a 800 plus r.w.h.p. car before. This was on a GSS return style pump setup. Hermann

 

[Jpjr]

Came in handy for me before! Gained back enough volume to be safe on a 800 plus r.w.h.p. car before. This was on a GSS return style pump setup. Hermann

Yes. I've read that people ARE using a BAP with return for high HP setups (like E85), because the regulator can only regulate fuel pressure to the extent that the pumps are putting it out sufficiently.

 

[SVT GI]

Came in handy for me before! Gained back enough volume to be safe on a 800 plus r.w.h.p. car before. This was on a GSS return style pump setup. Hermann

How are you increasing voltage to pumps that are already recieving full voltage? Did you leave the FPDMs in the loop when wiring them previously? If so, that makes sense. If not, seems like they'll burn up.

If you've already done the work to do a return, a BAP is a bandaid...put a third pump in.

 

[hpbyhermann]

Seems you don't understand what a BAP does.

How are you increasing voltage to pumps that are already recieving full voltage? Did you leave the FPDMs in the loop when wiring them previously? If so, that makes sense. If not, seems like they'll burn up.

If you've already done the work to do a return, a BAP is a bandaid...put a third pump in.

The FPDM does nothing in my returnless applications. Some use them as activation switches. The BAP is a voltage amplifier that can increase the voltage at the fuel pumps from 12 volts to over 17 volts. The volume that the pumps can move is increased by at least 20-30% percent......sometimes more. I hardly think they can be considered "bandaids". I have logged and tuned 100's of mustangs with BAP's on them. Stock Cobra pump equipt. cars that make upwards of 700 RWHP. Pretty good Bandaids!!:rockon: The advantages to this is less voltage use under regular operation, I use mine in conjunction with adjustable boost pressure switches for precise activation at the boost levels I choose. I for one like them.:beer: Hermann

 

[SVT GI]

Actually the FPDM does everything with your returnless...But I know what you meant. :beer:

I'm not doubting that a BAP increases your voltage to your pumps. But in a return, you are NOT at a decreased voltage use because you are not running an FPDM. So my point is.... A GSS or Walbro (all the same) is running at full voltage why risk burning a pump out with trying to increase its flow by 20-30%?

Any device used to enhance the performance of a device past its intended purposes is a bandaid. Whether its good or bad? I don't know, it works for some and not for others. My point is...if you have gone through the work to build a return setup, wouldn't you have added enough pumps to begin with.

I have logged and tuned 100's of mustangs with BAP's on them. Stock Cobra pump equipt. cars that make upwards of 700 RWHP.

Thats great! But you are talking returnless. And what are you logging? FPDC? Not in a return with no FPDM.

Herman, I respect your abilities as many praise your knowledge and tuning abilities, but the OP was asking if a BAP was necessary with a return style. If you have maxed out 3 GSS's and making 1500+hp, which I doubt (OP), then no. :beer:

 

[hpbyhermann]

You are correct, I meant Return not Returnless.

Actually the FPDM does everything with your returnless...But I know what you meant. :beer:

I'm not doubting that a BAP increases your voltage to your pumps. But in a return, you are NOT at a decreased voltage use because you are not running an FPDM. So my point is.... A GSS or Walbro (all the same) is running at full voltage why risk burning a pump out with trying to increase its flow by 20-30%?

Any device used to enhance the performance of a device past its intended purposes is a bandaid. Whether its good or bad? I don't know, it works for some and not for others. My point is...if you have gone through the work to build a return setup, wouldn't you have added enough pumps to begin with.



Thats great! But you are talking returnless. And what are you logging? FPDC? Not in a return with no FPDM.

Herman, I respect your abilities as many praise your knowledge and tuning abilities, but the OP was asking if a BAP was necessary with a return style. If you have maxed out 3 GSS's and making 1500+hp, which I doubt (OP), then no. :beer:

The point is less voltage is used in the time were the BAP isn't being called into use. What i'm logging is obviously not fuel pump precentage of use. It is another pid that informs me of situations when the volume isn't keeping up with demand. But i'm not here to give a class. Do yourself a favor and take a peek at the Kenne Bell website, they have a very accurate fuel system flow bench that has shown some interesting flow data. The thread is "Anyone wire a BAP with a return fuel system". I find them a good fit in SOME, not all situations. Way back when I just started tuning returnless cars I thought them to be "Band aids" as well......but after using them effectively for 8 plus years I find them to be great tools in my toolbox.:rockon: You can make your own choices. Many companys promote the use of fuel pumps at 16 volts and above. I use them in full tilt race cars quite often. Have you ever personally built a 8 second or faster car? Lots of my own experience comes from builds like that. Do as you see fit!:beer: Hermann

 

[mack83]

Hermanns got a solid point. Wiring a bap on a set of normally open contacts with a hobbs switch to activate under full boost to give it that little extra flow rate would be a real good setup to give some extra piece of mind incase abnormal generated voltage could pull down the preset regulator pressure under extreme conditions (and going lean with a high dollar engine). With that setup also, you would avoid just circulating massive amounts of fuel through the regulator back to tank and heating it up (as per kenne bells theory). He's just not using it as 99% of people would think of as it's "only" use.

 

[hpbyhermann]

You got my point and intended use exactly!

Hermanns got a solid point. Wiring a bap on a set of normally open contacts with a hobbs switch to activate under full boost to give it that little extra flow rate would be a real good setup to give some extra piece of mind incase abnormal generated voltage could pull down the preset regulator pressure under extreme conditions (and going lean with a high dollar engine). With that setup also, you would avoid just circulating massive amounts of fuel through the regulator back to tank and heating it up (as per kenne bells theory). He's just not using it as 99% of people would think of as it's "only" use.

Using with an ADJUSTABLE PRESSURE SWITCH set to come on at higher boost levels gives you more on demand head room if you need it, without overheating your fuel! Just understand that once again I'm not at all saying this is a must do, it is just an option for certain cars that may need more volume. Not trying to argue with anyone on this. Hermann:thumbsup:

 

[Jpjr]

I agree with Herman. There are so many people running stock pumps with a BAP at over 600rwhp that you can hardly call it a band aid. It is a true innovation. My tuner recommends the BAP for voltage regulation, he just feels it is tried and true and is a good safety mechanism in addition to providing extra power when needed.

That said, Herman what is the general thought process to wiring the BAP with a return setup? Also is there any reason not to use the newer GT 500 dual BAP if I am running twin Walbors. Thank you.

 

[EvilTwins]

Just how high can you go with the voltage you send to a pump that was designed only for 12V? Obviously channeling a higher voltage to a DC motor will increase it's speed, but do manufacturers usually specify just how high you can go?

I kinda like the idea of using a hobbs switch and my BAP when i swap in my return system, it becomes a very simple and cheap (seeing as how I already have a BAP) voltage regulator. I don't like the fact that there is something that could fail in the system though... I think just getting a pump that is well oversized for what I need and not messing around with the voltage supply will be the way I go...

 

[Jpjr]

Just how high can you go with the voltage you send to a pump that was designed only for 12V? Obviously channeling a higher voltage to a DC motor will increase it's speed, but do manufacturers usually specify just how high you can go?

I kinda like the idea of using a hobbs switch and my BAP when i swap in my return system, it becomes a very simple and cheap (seeing as how I already have a BAP) voltage regulator. I don't like the fact that there is something that could fail in the system though... I think just getting a pump that is well oversized for what I need and not messing around with the voltage supply will be the way I go...

From a practical standpoint, how many years has the BAP been around now with no fried pumps? (Or at least I can't think of any I remember). I assume that Kenne Bell does a lot of testing on popular pumps, they test Walboros on their site that Herman referenced.

 

[hpbyhermann]

Again, fuel pumps have been proven to be able to be used at 16-17 volts easy.

From a practical standpoint, how many years has the BAP been around now with no fried pumps? (Or at least I can't think of any I remember). I assume that Kenne Bell does a lot of testing on popular pumps, they test Walboros on their site that Herman referenced.

Many of the true race pumps are even offered for sale specifically for 16 volt applications, the only difference being 12 volt alternators and chargers not being able to supply 16 volts. Those cars are setup to use 16 volt charging systems. As a side note those 16 volt race cars also use the 16 volts to supply the ignition systems, providing extra ignition power. Many fuel pump companies regularly show the voltage operational ranges from 12-17 volts. It is fine to do so, i've done it for years and never has ANY pump fail when used in this fashion.:rockon: The new dual GT-500 BAP (also available in 2 versions, street and race, the difference being higher voltage in the race)is 2 40 amp. BAPs in one case, if I was starting from scratch i'd go this route since there are 2 inputs and 2 outputs, making the wiring easy!:beer:Hermann

 

[thomas91169]

high hp dsm guys are using the BAP in return style setups to get more flow out of their pumps. This way they can run standard 12v during cruise, and crank it up when necessary (especially for track use).

also some were saying the BAP acts as a capacitor so you dont get any voltage drop up top (which would cause a leanout condition due to lack of fueling) to the pump anymore. some guys just leave them zeroed out and say their a/f ratio up top became way more consistent due to more stable fuel flow.

 

[04sleeper]

Herman is spot on with this one. :thumbsup:

No need to add anything else.

 

[mack83]

Who's got an oscilloscope, a bap, and a couple hours free? It'd be real nice to see some testing as to the stability of the voltage the bap produces versus what the generated voltage in the alternator produces to ease the mind of anyone in disbelief of the output quality/level of the DC signals generated throughout the RPM range by both systems (BAP/Alternator). Hmm..... :read: