500hp n/a daily driver question

[wildaries83]

So I am curious to why so many people think the driveability of a 500 rwhp 5.0 is gonna be so crappy. Here is the list of mods, I have a little over half of them at the moment.

Forged internals
Kooks headers
Kooks catted x pipe
Cervini exhaust
Steeda CAI
Cams (prob stage 2 or 3)
CNC ported heads
Ford Racing Steel forged crankshaft
Machined block
Boss 302 intake
Accufab throttle body
Might be taking the red line to 8k rpm
Dyno Tune

This is the list and it will set me a little over 500rwhp, pretty sure I did not miss anything. The reason for forged intenals is for my whenver race weekend at the strip I am going to be running 250 - 300 stepped shot of nitrous (direct port injection). So yeah a lot of people think daily driveability is going to go down the drain. I am curious as to why so many people are thinking this. Suggestions?

 

[01cobravortech]

Because most have probably never driven a car with 500 rwhp.

 

[JerryC]

So yeah a lot of people think daily driveability is going to go down the drain. I am curious as to why so many people are thinking this. Suggestions?

Mostly due to the varied opinions of what a daily driver is.
For me, 30 years ago it was budget motor V8 Pinto that was loud and smelled of oil and exhaust fumes, no AC or PS and a 6 point roll bar. I worked on the car seemingly every weekend. It ate C4's like nobody's business.

Now it's a blown 2011 GT that has every comfort and from the outside looks and sounds stock, with the exception of wheels and tires.

In your case, what stands out to me is the 8k redline, which would mean a steep set of rear gear to take advantage of that. You'll either need a fairly high stall or a manual. How long will it last even built pushing that 8K and NOS and putting in 12,000 plus DD miles a year?

 

[jymboslice]

i sat in traffic today, picked up my sister from school, and gunned it a bunch of times. My car didn't stall once, idle high, overheat, when i revved it it goes straight back to normal idle or anything out of the ordinary. My car has over 550 rwhp and it acts like a stock car, until you start to put your foot to the floor.

My daily driveability has not gone down the drain at all. My Mom who is 51 can drive my car.. if my Grandma knew how to drive a manual she could drive my car. People think with 500+ hp your driveability will become shitty. It has gotten better for me. It's like driving a stock 5.0..

 

[wildaries83]

Mostly due to the varied opinions of what a daily driver is.
For me, 30 years ago it was budget motor V8 Pinto that was loud and smelled of oil and exhaust fumes, no AC or PS and a 6 point roll bar. I worked on the car seemingly every weekend. It ate C4's like nobody's business.

Now it's a blown 2011 GT that has every comfort and from the outside looks and sounds stock, with the exception of wheels and tires.

In your case, what stands out to me is the 8k redline, which would mean a steep set of rear gear to take advantage of that. You'll either need a fairly high stall or a manual. How long will it last even built pushing that 8K and NOS and putting in 12,000 plus DD miles a year?

I have the 6 speed 3.73gears, I am sure one day will be going to t56 magnum tranny once it comes out. 8k redline would not be hit really would be 7.5 but again this is when racing. The boss can be taken to 7.5k just fine. It is fine as a daily driver. I honestly do not see why this car would not last years with it having a built engine, built tranny when it is available. It is not like I am going to a drag strip every weekend. Maybe 10 times a year at most. That is if I am lucky.

 

[JerryC]

I have the 6 speed 3.73gears, I am sure one day will be going to t56 magnum tranny once it comes out. 8k redline would not be hit really would be 7.5 but again this is when racing. The boss can be taken to 7.5k just fine. It is fine as a daily driver. I honestly do not see why this car would not last years with it having a built engine, built tranny when it is available. It is not like I am going to a drag strip every weekend. Maybe 10 times a year at most. That is if I am lucky.

7500 sounds ok to me, as do 3.73's.
With the cams nd Boss intake will you have enough torque to make it a good DD?
It really comes down to what you think is a DD, myself I like an engine with lots of torque as a daily driver. Stock my GT lacked that feeling below about 3K and then really came on. Shifting the powerband up another 1000 rpm would not have made it a better DD for me. Some people like running up in the rpms most of the time, it's just not what I prefer.

 

[twistedneck]

Excellent question.

First, if you want to take advantage of the heads you need higher lift and duration cams along with more overlap all those make it a very shit idle... and to match that you need proper piston valve reliefs cut. You will also need to lock out the phase adjusters so there will no longer be TiVCT, from what i understand it just reacts too slowly to a race type of engine setup.

Now, it seems to work ok in the boss but what is better, more lift and duration, or more timing advance. both bring the valves closer to the piston but i'm not sure what is better. I've read that the cams simply cant adjust fast enough with a more radical engine (i.e. more airflow, higher rpm, etc.). Someone please correct me.

Keep in mind for a real nascar or f1 type of pure N.A. super spin motor you need 15:1 compression i've heard of 16:1 in some nascar engines. the most we can street drive is 11:1 and thats still super high and a testament to the well designed combustion chamber and injection - its almost direct injection. the Ferrari 458 has 12.5:1 - but that is pure direct injection. our rpm will be limited due to lack of compression, not sure but 7800-8000 may be it.

The more radical cam will idle about 1100 rpm, rough.. and it wont have shit for low end torque compared to what we have today.. but above 5000 it will be psycho.

also, to make that work you need a nice light weight set of pistons and rods, along with no oil sprayers on the pistons. you can throw in a lightweight twin plate clutch and light flywheel all making the engine spin up more quickly and of course new gears, but damn our 3.73 in first gear is already a stump puller.

i'd wait out the boss intake - get a cobra jet.. its got a twin 65mm TB instead of the stock 80mm.

Also, you can get all that JPC stuff (RGR engine), the MMR guys also have it, along with Livernois.. boss chain tensioners are mandatory. new valves in those heads and much higher rate/ load valve springs.

Then there is the whole 7600rpm limit thing. unless you know a damn good tuner (JPC, Lund, etc..) i'm not sure the stock ecu can go above 7600 rpm hard limit.

Turbo's are super awesome for pure power, but there is just something unique and artisan about a wicked high rpm N.A. engine.

PS. if i dont go turbo i will get the block sleeved by ERL to 95mm bore, that brings our motor just above square to 320cid. and it allows for the valves to be un shrouded and flow numbers will improve. piston speed in our motors already suck so no sense in stroking it if you want high rpm.

Oh god, how did i forget the billet oil pump gears? just reading the twin turbo thread.. get the billet gears!!

Good luck, keep this post updated if you go that route. Thanks, Jeff C.

 

[wildaries83]

Excellent question.

First, if you want to take advantage of the heads you need higher lift and duration cams along with more overlap all those make it a very shit idle... and to match that you need proper piston valve reliefs cut. You will also need to lock out the phase adjusters so there will no longer be TiVCT, from what i understand it just reacts too slowly to a race type of engine setup.

Now, it seems to work ok in the boss but what is better, more lift and duration, or more timing advance. both bring the valves closer to the piston but i'm not sure what is better. I've read that the cams simply cant adjust fast enough with a more radical engine (i.e. more airflow, higher rpm, etc.). Someone please correct me.

Keep in mind for a real nascar or f1 type of pure N.A. super spin motor you need 15:1 compression i've heard of 16:1 in some nascar engines. the most we can street drive is 11:1 and thats still super high and a testament to the well designed combustion chamber and injection - its almost direct injection. the Ferrari 458 has 12.5:1 - but that is pure direct injection. our rpm will be limited due to lack of compression, not sure but 7800-8000 may be it.

The more radical cam will idle about 1100 rpm, rough.. and it wont have shit for low end torque compared to what we have today.. but above 5000 it will be psycho.

also, to make that work you need a nice light weight set of pistons and rods, along with no oil sprayers on the pistons. you can throw in a lightweight twin plate clutch and light flywheel all making the engine spin up more quickly and of course new gears, but damn our 3.73 in first gear is already a stump puller.

i'd wait out the boss intake - get a cobra jet.. its got a twin 65mm TB instead of the stock 80mm.

Also, you can get all that JPC stuff (RGR engine), the MMR guys also have it, along with Livernois.. boss chain tensioners are mandatory. new valves in those heads and much higher rate/ load valve springs.

Then there is the whole 7600rpm limit thing. unless you know a damn good tuner (JPC, Lund, etc..) i'm not sure the stock ecu can go above 7600 rpm hard limit.

Turbo's are super awesome for pure power, but there is just something unique and artisan about a wicked high rpm N.A. engine.

PS. if i dont go turbo i will get the block sleeved by ERW to 95mm bore, that brings our motor just above square to 320cid. and it allows for the valves to be un shrouded and flow numbers will improve. piston speed in our motors already suck so no sense in stroking it if you want high rpm.

Good luck, keep this post updated if you go that route. Thanks, Jeff C.

Thanks a million for the input Jeff. For some reason I was not thinking torque was going to take such a drop. I figure still pulling over 400tq to the wheels. I will have to check what jpc had showing with there 500 n/a build. I might be getting over my head trying to build this thing this way. Hmm, starting to ponder. Maybe just go with what I have now, forge it and sc the thing. Or maybe forge it and spray the living crap out of it for track days. As it stands right now the thing is torqy as all get out and I just spin through first gear even with wide tires and suspension work.

P.S. Who is ERW? boring the block out is not such a bad idea with a big power adder.

 

[twistedneck]

wildaries83 i mean to say ERL.. sorry bout that.

A Look Inside the Wiseco, K1, And ERL-Built 351 Coyote Short Block - StangTV.com

They are not doing the 351 anymore but they will sleeve your block no problem and its actaully stronger than factory. although i would only go 95mm, 96mm is ok for pure N.A. setup but that would be the limit according to the write up.

The more we wait the more stuff is out there.

Keep in mind we will never make the crazy power of even a simple s/c or turbo setup. but, our cars will be much lighter, not have the complexity, and the power will be easier to replicate under hot conditions like during the phoenix summer or on a circle track. yes, some people still take thier cars to the 1/4 mile clay tracks on street night after the late model's are all done. love Georgia clay tracks! Here in michigan we have a 1/4 mile track at flat rock, that will really test your car's handling and cooling.

 

[Melvo]

i sat in traffic today, picked up my sister from school, and gunned it a bunch of times. My car didn't stall once, idle high, overheat, when i revved it it goes straight back to normal idle or anything out of the ordinary. My car has over 550 rwhp and it acts like a stock car, until you start to put your foot to the floor.

My daily driveability has not gone down the drain at all. My Mom who is 51 can drive my car.. if my Grandma knew how to drive a manual she could drive my car. People think with 500+ hp your driveability will become shitty. It has gotten better for me. It's like driving a stock 5.0..

I would love to have a sound video of your car or just a video to see how it sounds and runs

 

[Konablue10GT]

Our shop car makes 500 n/a rwhp and 400 rwtq and I drive it everyday weather permitting. It idles great and knocks down 24 mpg on the highway. The 7800 rpm is not an issue, we have had ours over 8200 rpm. The drivabilty is stock but it did take hours upon hours of cam tuning to get it this way.

All that Im trying to say is that you can totally have stock like drivabilty with a a h/c/i coyote/roadrunner 5.0 4v engine.

Thanks

Adam

 

[RMoore92]

Because most have probably never driven a car with 500 rwhp.

+1 I drove my lightning every day that put down 550/600

 

[assasinator]

Excellent question.

First, if you want to take advantage of the heads you need higher lift and duration cams along with more overlap all those make it a very shit idle... and to match that you need proper piston valve reliefs cut. You will also need to lock out the phase adjusters so there will no longer be TiVCT, from what i understand it just reacts too slowly to a race type of engine setup.

Now, it seems to work ok in the boss but what is better, more lift and duration, or more timing advance. both bring the valves closer to the piston but i'm not sure what is better. I've read that the cams simply cant adjust fast enough with a more radical engine (i.e. more airflow, higher rpm, etc.). Someone please correct me.

Keep in mind for a real nascar or f1 type of pure N.A. super spin motor you need 15:1 compression i've heard of 16:1 in some nascar engines. the most we can street drive is 11:1 and thats still super high and a testament to the well designed combustion chamber and injection - its almost direct injection. the Ferrari 458 has 12.5:1 - but that is pure direct injection. our rpm will be limited due to lack of compression, not sure but 7800-8000 may be it.

The more radical cam will idle about 1100 rpm, rough.. and it wont have shit for low end torque compared to what we have today.. but above 5000 it will be psycho.

also, to make that work you need a nice light weight set of pistons and rods, along with no oil sprayers on the pistons. you can throw in a lightweight twin plate clutch and light flywheel all making the engine spin up more quickly and of course new gears, but damn our 3.73 in first gear is already a stump puller.

i'd wait out the boss intake - get a cobra jet.. its got a twin 65mm TB instead of the stock 80mm.

Also, you can get all that JPC stuff (RGR engine), the MMR guys also have it, along with Livernois.. boss chain tensioners are mandatory. new valves in those heads and much higher rate/ load valve springs.

Then there is the whole 7600rpm limit thing. unless you know a damn good tuner (JPC, Lund, etc..) i'm not sure the stock ecu can go above 7600 rpm hard limit.

Turbo's are super awesome for pure power, but there is just something unique and artisan about a wicked high rpm N.A. engine.

PS. if i dont go turbo i will get the block sleeved by ERL to 95mm bore, that brings our motor just above square to 320cid. and it allows for the valves to be un shrouded and flow numbers will improve. piston speed in our motors already suck so no sense in stroking it if you want high rpm.

Oh god, how did i forget the billet oil pump gears? just reading the twin turbo thread.. get the billet gears!!

Good luck, keep this post updated if you go that route. Thanks, Jeff C.

not to call you names, but you seem like a naysayer who is out of touch . 500rwhp on this motor has been done enough times now where we know it's no big deal. For me personally, 465rwhp is the goal for DD. not rev it to the moon, use the stock intake, and make that number on E85 should be very easy.

 

[Sc0tty2h0ttie]

Excellent question.

First, if you want to take advantage of the heads you need higher lift and duration cams along with more overlap all those make it a very shit idle... and to match that you need proper piston valve reliefs cut. You will also need to lock out the phase adjusters so there will no longer be TiVCT, from what i understand it just reacts too slowly to a race type of engine setup.

Now, it seems to work ok in the boss but what is better, more lift and duration, or more timing advance. both bring the valves closer to the piston but i'm not sure what is better. I've read that the cams simply cant adjust fast enough with a more radical engine (i.e. more airflow, higher rpm, etc.). Someone please correct me.

Keep in mind for a real nascar or f1 type of pure N.A. super spin motor you need 15:1 compression i've heard of 16:1 in some nascar engines. the most we can street drive is 11:1 and thats still super high and a testament to the well designed combustion chamber and injection - its almost direct injection. the Ferrari 458 has 12.5:1 - but that is pure direct injection. our rpm will be limited due to lack of compression, not sure but 7800-8000 may be it.

The more radical cam will idle about 1100 rpm, rough.. and it wont have shit for low end torque compared to what we have today.. but above 5000 it will be psycho.

also, to make that work you need a nice light weight set of pistons and rods, along with no oil sprayers on the pistons. you can throw in a lightweight twin plate clutch and light flywheel all making the engine spin up more quickly and of course new gears, but damn our 3.73 in first gear is already a stump puller.

i'd wait out the boss intake - get a cobra jet.. its got a twin 65mm TB instead of the stock 80mm.

Also, you can get all that JPC stuff (RGR engine), the MMR guys also have it, along with Livernois.. boss chain tensioners are mandatory. new valves in those heads and much higher rate/ load valve springs.

Then there is the whole 7600rpm limit thing. unless you know a damn good tuner (JPC, Lund, etc..) i'm not sure the stock ecu can go above 7600 rpm hard limit.

Turbo's are super awesome for pure power, but there is just something unique and artisan about a wicked high rpm N.A. engine.

PS. if i dont go turbo i will get the block sleeved by ERL to 95mm bore, that brings our motor just above square to 320cid. and it allows for the valves to be un shrouded and flow numbers will improve. piston speed in our motors already suck so no sense in stroking it if you want high rpm.

Oh god, how did i forget the billet oil pump gears? just reading the twin turbo thread.. get the billet gears!!

Good luck, keep this post updated if you go that route. Thanks, Jeff C.

If he is spraying that much he can look into a nitrous cam setup. They remove some overlap as to capture more spray because when you have 1000 psi nitrous spraying down into the cylinder the VE of the motor will go up. Therefore no need for a ton over lap to just have unburnt nitrous come out the exhaust. Why a hefty kit on these cars with stock cam timing will shoot some nice flames on shift sometimes. Unburnt oxygen as the nitrous split in the cylinder got pushed out due to to much overlap.

So with a nitrous type cam it might make a few less n/a but still idle real nice. And more then make up that little power loss on the kit.

I <3 nitrous.

 

[MikeLTDLX]

Shaun made 445 with minimal mods and his own E85 tune. I don't see why 500 would be that hard, and should be doable within the constraints of the stock intake.

Mike

 

[specizripn]

Excellent question.
First, if you want to take advantage of the heads you need higher lift and duration cams along with more overlap all those make it a very shit idle...

Hmmm, is this with deleted VCT, because from what I've heard with VCT these cars will idle relatively normal and you can't even hear the cams like most cammed cars. :shrug: