What is needed to pull to 7700-8000 Rpm's - safely/reliably

[jymboslice]

Hey guys, I'd thought I would start a discussion about how to make a coyote motor pull all the way to 7700-8000rpm's, safely and reliably. This is not for the Road runner motor - strictly coyote motors. We all know the roadrunner can go to 8000+ rpm's easily.

My question is.. what is needed for us to pull to the high rpm's safely with boost? I know some NA guys are pulling their motors to 7700 rpm's with the boss manifold and stock valve train, but I would not do that. I saw the NA/built coyote motors are pulling to 7900 or so rpms too but they have ported heads/more aggressive cams.

I'm thinking that FRPP Cobra Jet competition pulse ring and a set of stiffer valve springs/retainers. Along with billet oil pump gears are all that is needed.

Edited: Forged rods/pistons or just forged pistons and an oil cooler/larger radiator would be needed also.

Would that basically be it? The cams are decent and the Roadrunner cams are not that much different. The stock heads/cams already flow so much air, as is.

Anything I am missing? anyone can add to this thread, i am just throwing down some ideas. It would be sweet to whip around a road course, revving all the way to 8k rpm's, with boost, and having the car be reliable.

 

[keoni1984]

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BTW, you ordered the exact F150 that I want to get...

 

[5.0GT]

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What is the rev limit on the CJ?

 

[me32]

Would you have to swap to the boss pcm?

 

[jymboslice]

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BTW, you ordered the exact F150 that I want to get...

I see you have a good taste in cars/trucks :beer:. my f150 was supposed to be here last monday.. guess it didnt come :fm:. It also has the FX appearance package on it, i forgot to list that in my sig.

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What is the rev limit on the CJ?

The pulse ring lets the engine rev to 8100 rpms, i am guessing that is the rev limit?

Here is a link to the pulse ring:
Ford Racing TI-VCT High RPM Competition Pulse Ring (11-13 5.0L) M-12A227-CJ13 - Free Shipping!

Would you have to swap to the boss pcm?

No, idea. Never thought of doing that either! I would imagine it would be possible to rev to 8000 rpm's without the boss pcm though?

 

[Krace]

The oil pressure to the heads is going to be a problem at higher rpm. Once above "I think" ~7200-7400rpm the oil is not getting pushed up in to the heads fast enough and can cause premature wear on the valve train. This is due to the use of the oil squirters. And that's why the Boss don't have the squirters. (If I can find the article of an interview from someone that was part of the coyote motor design team, I'll post it up to back up my facts.)
Now on the 2013 model I don't know much about just because they got rid of the oil squirters and use different pistons. So that motor maybe able to handle the higher rpm range with just better oil/coolant cooling mods.
Also with the 2013 models you wont know what motor you have unless you drop the oil pan and look to see if you have the squirters or not, cause in the first few mix 13's 5.0 have the 11-12 motor running in it.

So my recommendation is to pull the motor and install the boss guts and delete the oil squirters to run safely up to that rpm range with out killing the longevity of your motor. Also the mods to the heads you have mentioned will help with longevity at the higher rpm range as well.

*Just IMO* I just don't see pushing a motor just to have it fail in 20k miles a good idea. Don't get me wrong, the coyote is one hell of a motor and can take a lot of crap. But for how long can it go? 20? 50? 100k? No one knows. When I build motors, I build it once and keep it well in its tolerance for what I want it to do and have it last for 160-200k miles or more.
Anyway :beer:

 

[me32]

I see you have a good taste in cars/trucks :beer:. my f150 was supposed to be here last monday.. guess it didnt come :fm:. It also has the FX appearance package on it, i forgot to list that in my sig.



The pulse ring lets the engine rev to 8100 rpms, i am guessing that is the rev limit?

Here is a link to the pulse ring:
Ford Racing TI-VCT High RPM Competition Pulse Ring (11-13 5.0L) M-12A227-CJ13 - Free Shipping!



No, idea. Never thought of doing that either! I would imagine it would be possible to rev to 8000 rpm's without the boss pcm though?

ive heard it some have found a way to rev the stock pcm to 8100RPM but wasnt sure how safe or if there were any draw backs.

 

[jymboslice]

The oil pressure to the heads is going to be a problem at higher rpm. Once above "I think" ~7200-7400rpm the oil is not getting pushed up in to the heads fast enough and can cause premature wear on the valve train. This is due to the use of the oil squirters. And that's why the Boss don't have the squirters. (If I can find the article of an interview from someone that was part of the coyote motor design team, I'll post it up to back up my facts.)
Now on the 2013 model I don't know much about just because they got rid of the oil squirters and use different pistons. So that motor maybe able to handle the higher rpm range with just better oil/coolant cooling mods.
Also with the 2013 models you wont know what motor you have unless you drop the oil pan and look to see if you have the squirters or not, cause in the first few mix 13's 5.0 have the 11-12 motor running in it.

So my recommendation is to pull the motor and install the boss guts and delete the oil squirters to run safely up to that rpm range with out killing the longevity of your motor. Also the mods to the heads you have mentioned will help with longevity at the higher rpm range as well.

*Just IMO* I just don't see pushing a motor just to have it fail in 20k miles a good idea. Don't get me wrong, the coyote is one hell of a motor and can take a lot of crap. But for how long can it go? 20? 50? 100k? No one knows. When I build motors, I build it once and keep it well in its tolerance for what I want it to do and have it last for 160-200k miles or more.
Anyway :beer:

All of what you just said does make sense when you think about it. The premature wear on the valve train does not sound good - especially for longevity. Is it necessary to remove the pistons to delete those oil squirters? I did also forget about the oil/coolant cooling mods. I should add a larger radiator and an oil cooler to the list.

I remember one of the first 2011 5.0 commercials where they showed the piston oil squirters, making it seem like they were such a big deal. Now, they are known to limit the rpm range haha.

ive heard it some have found a way to rev the stock pcm to 8100RPM but wasnt sure how safe or if there were any draw backs.

Well, going off of what Krace has said the premature valve train wear is a draw back. What about floating valves or anything with the stock valve springs?

Here is JPC's NA car running 9's:
JPC First N/A 2011 Mustang GT in the 9's - YouTube

It says they used the stock PCM. It seems like it is possible to rev past 8k rpm's with the coyote pcm/motor

 

[Krace]

All of what you just said does make sense when you think about it. The premature wear on the valve train does not sound good - especially for longevity. Is it necessary to remove the pistons to delete those oil squirters? I did also forget about the oil/coolant cooling mods. I should add a larger radiator and an oil cooler to the list.

The problem of removing the oil squirters, is now you are over heating the stock pistons. Thus why the boss has forged pistons and no suqirters. Also the new 5.0 for the 13 models have a different pistons (no squirters), not as strong as the boss pistons but stronger then the 11-12 models.

To run at the rpm you want with out changing the bottom end, something is going to let go. But the question is how long will it last running it up that high? Time will only tell.

 

[Jedisalami]

why can boss's rev to 8200 but not us? Computer wise, not safety wise

 

[SILV03MustangGT]

why can boss's rev to 8200 but not us? Computer wise, not safety wise

different exhaust cams, valve springs, pistons, rods, and crank. The heads are better as well.

 

[jymboslice]

The problem of removing the oil squirters, is now you are over heating the stock pistons. Thus why the boss has forged pistons and no suqirters. Also the new 5.0 for the 13 models have a different pistons (no squirters), not as strong as the boss pistons but stronger then the 11-12 models.

To run at the rpm you want with out changing the bottom end, something is going to let go. But the question is how long will it last running it up that high? Time will only tell.

I never thought of that. Basically you need to swap to a totally different piston (Or use the Boss pistons) to be able to run that high of RPM and still have some sort of longevity. Even if you were to install a set of forged rods/pistons, you would still need an oil cooler, larger radiator, and stiffer valve springs to run that high rpm safely (With boost or with an aggressive NA motor).

I do agree with you though, if I were to run that high of RPM right now, something would eventually let go. I would bet something would let go very soon, too.

different exhaust cams, valve springs, pistons, rods, and crank. The heads are better as well.

The heads flow like 4% more than the coyote ones do, it's not that much of a difference. The boss also has better valves - if that even makes a difference, I am assuming so.

The boss also has a larger radiator and an oil cooler. I bet those help things out too.

 

[Jedisalami]

so, on our computer we can hit 8200? just a tune? stock trigger

 

[jymboslice]

so, on our computer we can hit 8200? just a tune? stock trigger

I doubt we'll be able to hit 8200 on our cars with just a tune.

 

[Jedisalami]

why can the bosses do it? whats the difference?

 

[charba951]

why can the bosses do it? whats the difference?

 

[el jefe 302]

why can the bosses do it? whats the difference?

Because race car.:shrug:

 

[Grant808]

why can the bosses do it? whats the difference?

Short answer: Everything.

New castings, CNC porting, valvetrain, PCM, forged internals...

Read me

OP-
I think HighwayStar's GT build would be a good place to start.

 

[Highway Star]

I never thought of that. Basically you need to swap to a totally different piston (Or use the Boss pistons) to be able to run that high of RPM and still have some sort of longevity. Even if you were to install a set of forged rods/pistons, you would still need an oil cooler, larger radiator, and stiffer valve springs to run that high rpm safely (With boost or with an aggressive NA motor).

I do agree with you though, if I were to run that high of RPM right now, something would eventually let go. I would bet something would let go very soon, too.


The heads flow like 4% more than the coyote ones do, it's not that much of a difference. The boss also has better valves - if that even makes a difference, I am assuming so.

The boss also has a larger radiator and an oil cooler. I bet those help things out too.

I essentially did this build and my suggestion is that you don't go cheap. Build out the block: deck plate / line bore, manley rods, wiseco pistons, rebalanced micropolished crankshaft, ARP studs, remove oil squirters, Livernois ported heads, Boss Intake, Boss oil Pan, Boss Valve Springs, Boss Oil Cooler, Comp Stage Two Cams, kooks header, xpipe. Hits hard rpm block at 7700 rpm. If you want to go higher you need the trigger. Do all that especially the Boss valve springs which are tested over 8000 rpm and you should have a bullet proof machine.

http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-522-rwhp-naturally-aspirated-2011-5-0-a.html