Vote in my 'free will' poll... or not, its your decision.

[TheCPE]

Sam Harris's book on the matter is very interesting and something that I've always felt myself as a determinist.

Interesting the implications regarding ethics, morality and law.

 

[joeg215]

I'm going to eat a sandwich instead.

Hey bro, you know what.... did you leave me any?

i piss off my girlfriend when i tell her "don't worry, every decision i make is right".

because in effect, it is... or, it is wrong. (or perhaps somewhere in between.)

but whatever you want to call it, i do think that it is the ONLY decision that could have possibly been made at the time.

it is the "philosophy of determinism."

Ive believed in determinism for a long time but I wasnt introduced to the term till freshman year in philosophy, and I remember laughing and saying to myself, "shit, so thats what its called." LOL. I guess I never bothered to look up it up before that.

Sam Harris's book on the matter is very interesting and something that I've always felt myself as a determinist.

Interesting the implications regarding ethics, morality and law.

Not to mention religion, science, medicine.. I liked his talk, his book must be very interesting.

 

[canibus]

I think we over science some things. Yes we have free will, luck plays a big part in aiding or shitting on our decisions but overall we are responsible for our own outcomes.

 

[black4vcobra]

Yes, but complex.

I believe we have free will to make certain choices in our life that end to a pre-set number of end results. Some people no matter what choices they make, have more negative end results than others, some have to make little to no choices to end with positive results.

We have free will to make pre-set choices basically. Kinda like voting, they give us the candidates and then make us feel like we have a choice when we put in our votes, but since they have provided us with the only possible outcomes, its a limited number of possible pre-determined results. The difference is, we do not know which choices we are making at which time that are leading to said pre-determined paths.

This is pretty deep and makes the most sense to me. Excellent job of explaining it.

I think it holds true considering some people make bad decisions regularly, yet their lives don't spiral out of control because they have a proper support system in place while others may work hard and "do the right thing" yet still end up broke, dead or crazy due to circumstances they don't have much (or any) control over.

 

[DaleM]

"free will"?
Please define your version of free will!

 

[WireEater]

It has always boggled my mind that someone can blindly assume something is false based upon the simple fact that he or she wouldn't like it or want it to be otherwise.

Newsflash: reality is the way it is regardless of how you feel about it.

I didn't have a choice in posting this.



.

Oh, so I see you visit the politics section often...:lol::lol:

 

[TheCPE]

Not to mention religion, science, medicine.. I liked his talk, his book must be very interesting.

Sam Harris is definitely one of my favorite non-fiction authors/speakers.

His book, Free Will, is only about 75 pages and takes maybe a few hours to read but it contains so many thought provoking ideas. Some of the implications in the book I have to somewhat disagree with despite that I do believe that when you get down to the most fundamental level life is deterministic. I think that people with a specific agenda (which I don’t think he has) could use this idea to try to claim that no one is responsible for their actions but I don’t feel that way.

So how can people still be responsible for their actions IF determinism is true? It is a difficult question but I think there are answers on multiple levels. The simplest answer is on the level of societal control versus chaos. Whether an individual had a “choice” or not to commit some heinous crime, law and order must be maintained for the population meaning either a penal or correctional system is required.

On another level, the fundamental level, there is a difference between the determinism of computer science and the determinism of “life”. Life’s determinism is based upon quantum logic instead of boolean logic. This is significant in my mind because it means that you are dealing with for lacking of better description “weighted possibilities” in which there still is “choice” and these minute choices culminate into larger macro level choices which we witness. Simply speaking, a DNA scan of a fetus might be able to say “this person has a high probability of being a psychopath” but it would never be a 100% guarantee.

I think we over science some things. Yes we have free will, luck plays a big part in aiding or shitting on our decisions but overall we are responsible for our own outcomes.

I would agree that the idea of determinism should not be used as an excuse or mitigation of personal responsibility based on the ideas above. It is impossible to ignore the truth however that on a fundamental level our neurons due to genetics and stimulus are out of our control.

Put another way and on a higher more easily observable level, no matter how much training and practice I could never be an NBA star, this can be extrapolated across the board. Some individuals are not born with the tools to function very well in our "system" and it isn't their fault. This effects us all to some degree.

 

[joeg215]

"free will"?
Please define your version of free will!

Good question, and primarily the reason I put a third option so people can talk about what they believe. Its difficult to put the concept of free will into words but ill give it a try, I believe it is a persons ability to make conscious decisions that are not caused by prior conditions; this ability not being bound by any constraints.

I feel that decisions, whether conscious or not, are based solely on past experiences and your genetics. Now, if you look back since the moment you were born, you are not in control of either of those two conditions. You do not choose who your parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents are, you do not choose how your cells and DNA act, nor do you choose how you are raised.

Its a very interesting way to look at things. One thing is for sure, I'm very understanding and empathetic towards people because of it. That's not to say for instance that I think people that are destructive to society should be released from prison and allowed to run freely because its not "their" fault. Quite the opposite, I know they are capable of doing that so they should not be released. But, we can learn from them instead of hating them and casting them aside in hopes that jail will teach them to not do things.

 

[canibus]

Sam Harris is definitely one of my favorite non-fiction authors/speakers.

His book, Free Will, is only about 75 pages and takes maybe a few hours to read but it contains so many thought provoking ideas. Some of the implications in the book I have to somewhat disagree with despite that I do believe that when you get down to the most fundamental level life is deterministic. I think that people with a specific agenda (which I don’t think he has) could use this idea to try to claim that no one is responsible for their actions but I don’t feel that way.

So how can people still be responsible for their actions IF determinism is true? It is a difficult question but I think there are answers on multiple levels. The simplest answer is on the level of societal control versus chaos. Whether an individual had a “choice” or not to commit some heinous crime, law and order must be maintained for the population meaning either a penal or correctional system is required.

On another level, the fundamental level, there is a difference between the determinism of computer science and the determinism of “life”. Life’s determinism is based upon quantum logic instead of boolean logic. This is significant in my mind because it means that you are dealing with for lacking of better description “weighted possibilities” in which there still is “choice” and these minute choices culminate into larger macro level choices which we witness. Simply speaking, a DNA scan of a fetus might be able to say “this person has a high probability of being a psychopath” but it would never be a 100% guarantee.



I would agree that the idea of determinism should not be used as an excuse or mitigation of personal responsibility based on the ideas above. It is impossible to ignore the truth however that on a fundamental level our neurons due to genetics and stimulus are out of our control.

Put another way and on a higher more easily observable level, no matter how much training and practice I could never be an NBA star, this can be extrapolated across the board. Some individuals are not born with the tools to function very well in our "system" and it isn't their fault. This effects us all to some degree.

Good question, and primarily the reason I put a third option so people can talk about what they believe. Its difficult to put the concept of free will into words but ill give it a try, I believe it is a persons ability to make conscious decisions that are not caused by prior conditions; this ability not being bound by any constraints.

I feel that decisions, whether conscious or not, are based solely on past experiences and your genetics. Now, if you look back since the moment you were born, you are not in control of either of those two conditions. You do not choose who your parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents are, you do not choose how your cells and DNA act, nor do you choose how you are raised.

Its a very interesting way to look at things. One thing is for sure, I'm very understanding and empathetic towards people because of it. That's not to say for instance that I think people that are destructive to society should be released from prison and allowed to run freely because its not "their" fault. Quite the opposite, I know they are capable of doing that so they should not be released. But, we can learn from them instead of hating them and casting them aside in hopes that jail will teach them to not do things.

I think you both are going a different direction. Free will can only be possible when one has choices. We don't choose our parents, free will does not apply. It doesn't even apply as children because we are dependent of our parents to make choices for us. It is not until our teen years that we begin exercising free will. Which is why teens become rebellious, it's not that they're bad, it's just a period in our lives when we realize we have options. That our parents are not the end all be all. Criminals mimic their upbringings, It's a learned behavior. Yes they should be blamed for their crimes because they chose to commit them. I was brought up by people who gave me good advice all the way through, bad influences tried changing me but overall good prevailed. I am law abiding because I chose to be.

 

[KurtDog]

The illusion of choice. Matrix shit.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

The Norns decide our fate.

 

[TheCPE]

I think you both are going a different direction. Free will can only be possible when one has choices. We don't choose our parents, free will does not apply. It doesn't even apply as children because we are dependent of our parents to make choices for us. It is not until our teen years that we begin exercising free will. Which is why teens become rebellious, it's not that they're bad, it's just a period in our lives when we realize we have options. That our parents are not the end all be all. Criminals mimic their upbringings, It's a learned behavior. Yes they should be blamed for their crimes because they chose to commit them. I was brought up by people who gave me good advice all the way through, bad influences tried changing me but overall good prevailed. I am law abiding because I chose to be.

I wouldn’t be surprised that everyone that spends considerable time thinking about determinism and free will would come up with varying ideas of what they think.

Fundamentally “free will” is an idea devised by and only existing in human minds and mostly a semantics argument. You point out yourself that you did not choose your parents. Therefore, you too concede that your genetics and environment for the beginning of your life, the time when you are being molded and growing the most, are for the most part out of your control. I think I would agree with almost all that you said until your last sentence. You are making the case that your circumstances that molded you into the adult that you are was out of your control but then conclude that you choose to be a law abiding citizen. You’ve been conditioned to make “that choice” throughout your life so is it really a choice?

As a determinist I am definitely more sympathetic toward others circumstances but I cannot alleviate people from responsibility for their actions. As I tried to describe coherently before, the neural pathways that are created and sustained in your brain are a result of genetics and environment. They are not binary possibilities represented by stealing the car or not stealing the car. These pathways number in the trillions and all are weighted and have tertiary possibilities that are slowly strengthened or weakened throughout life based mostly on stimuli that is out of the individuals control. A macro level “choice” is composed of so many millions perhaps billions of these pathways. I suppose because observable choice/decisions are built upon so many billions of these “determined” neural pathways that are not guarantees but weighted probabilities that provides me the mental loophole I need to rationalize the idea of individual responsibility.

That is the real problem I suppose. The very human and rationale need for culpability versus the obvious indications that determinism is real. Some interesting experiments have actually been performed where an individual’s neural activity is monitored and the “decision” is observed to occur prior to the individual claiming to have “decided”.

 

[canibus]

No. What molded me into becoming what I am, was in my control. I had both good and bad influences throughout my entire teen life. I could really have gone to either extreme. In the end I chose to stay out of trouble and lead an honorable life. Had I gone the other direction, I'd be in jail 100% guaranteed.

 

[Mr.Bolt-on]

No. What molded me into becoming what I am, was in my control. I had both good and bad influences throughout my entire teen life. I could really have gone to either extreme. In the end I chose to stay out of trouble and lead an honorable life. Had I gone the other direction, I'd be in jail 100% guaranteed.

Exactly it really is that simple. Liberal hipsters read way too much into this.

 

[F8LBITEva]

As I've gotten older I've realized that religion doesn't make sense and life is just a series of random bullshit

 

[DaleM]

No. What molded me into becoming what I am, was in my control. I had both good and bad influences throughout my entire teen life. I could really have gone to either extreme. In the end I chose to stay out of trouble and lead an honorable life. Had I gone the other direction, I'd be in jail 100% guaranteed.

This gets the atheist stamp of approval.

 

[DaleM]

Good question, and primarily the reason I put a third option so people can talk about what they believe. Its difficult to put the concept of free will into words but ill give it a try, I believe it is a persons ability to make conscious decisions that are not caused by prior conditions; this ability not being bound by any constraints.

I feel that decisions, whether conscious or not, are based solely on past experiences and your genetics. Now, if you look back since the moment you were born, you are not in control of either of those two conditions. You do not choose who your parents/grandparents/greatgrandparents are, you do not choose how your cells and DNA act, nor do you choose how you are raised.

Its a very interesting way to look at things. One thing is for sure, I'm very understanding and empathetic towards people because of it. That's not to say for instance that I think people that are destructive to society should be released from prison and allowed to run freely because its not "their" fault. Quite the opposite, I know they are capable of doing that so they should not be released. But, we can learn from them instead of hating them and casting them aside in hopes that jail will teach them to not do things.

1. Will with eternal consequences is normally a religious argument. yuk as it is will with consequences and not "free" will.
2. Will with immediate or long term resultants are an individual choice.
3. Bad genes can lead to bad decisions and will of a corrupt genetic mental foundation. At the end of the day even people with good genes make dumb decisions and have to live with them, as well as those around them.

 

[wurd2]

So far it looks like only 5 of us are going to hell.



I really like Sam Harris' point that you can no more choose your next thought than you can choose the next word in this post. For choosing your next thought would require thinking about it before you've thought it.

Also, I'm thankful that my nottheist worldview grants me the freedom, or perhaps the illusion of freedom, to think for myself as to whether free will is an illusion or not. Theists have absolutely no option on the subject of free will because, in the context of their religion, the basis of evil and sin is, in fact, free will.

.

 

[joeg215]

I wouldn’t be surprised that everyone that spends considerable time thinking about determinism and free will would come up with varying ideas of what they think.

Fundamentally “free will” is an idea devised by and only existing in human minds and mostly a semantics argument. You point out yourself that you did not choose your parents. Therefore, you too concede that your genetics and environment for the beginning of your life, the time when you are being molded and growing the most, are for the most part out of your control. I think I would agree with almost all that you said until your last sentence. You are making the case that your circumstances that molded you into the adult that you are was out of your control but then conclude that you choose to be a law abiding citizen. You’ve been conditioned to make “that choice” throughout your life so is it really a choice?

As a determinist I am definitely more sympathetic toward others circumstances but I cannot alleviate people from responsibility for their actions. As I tried to describe coherently before, the neural pathways that are created and sustained in your brain are a result of genetics and environment. They are not binary possibilities represented by stealing the car or not stealing the car. These pathways number in the trillions and all are weighted and have tertiary possibilities that are slowly strengthened or weakened throughout life based mostly on stimuli that is out of the individuals control. A macro level “choice” is composed of so many millions perhaps billions of these pathways. I suppose because observable choice/decisions are built upon so many billions of these “determined” neural pathways that are not guarantees but weighted probabilities that provides me the mental loophole I need to rationalize the idea of individual responsibility.

That is the real problem I suppose. The very human and rationale need for culpability versus the obvious indications that determinism is real. Some interesting experiments have actually been performed where an individual’s neural activity is monitored and the “decision” is observed to occur prior to the individual claiming to have “decided”.

Well said. I remember hearing about that study and thinking its just a matter of time really.

No. What molded me into becoming what I am, was in my control. I had both good and bad influences throughout my entire teen life. I could really have gone to either extreme. In the end I chose to stay out of trouble and lead an honorable life. Had I gone the other direction, I'd be in jail 100% guaranteed.

"I chose to stay out of trouble and live an honorable life." That comment is a good example of why I think there is a lot of resistance towards the idea of the illusion of free will. Most of this resistance stems from pride, ego, and the personal responsibility of accomplishment. This doesnt mean you cant be proud of who you are, just like it doesnt mean you have to be ashamed for your shortcomings. It means that somewhere along the way, you learned (your brain formed in a specific way) certain things through experiences out of your control that led you down the path youre on.

 

[joeg215]

So far it looks like only 5 of us are going to hell.



I really like Sam Harris' point that you can no more choose your next thought than you can choose the next word in this post. For choosing your next thought would require thinking about it before you've thought it.

Also, I'm thankful that my nottheist worldview grants me the freedom, or perhaps the illusion of freedom, to think for myself as to whether free will is an illusion or not. Theists have absolutely no option on the subject of free will because, in the context of their religion, the basis of evil and sin is, in fact, free will.

.

Adam and Eve condemned us all by choosing to eat that apple.