Mike Foster
New Member
Where can I find a synthetic oil comparison between
the upper end oils such as Amsoil,Royal Purple,RedLine,etc?
the upper end oils such as Amsoil,Royal Purple,RedLine,etc?
Synthetic Oil Comparison
- Thread starter Mike Foster
- Start date
search for posts by Cobra'03
He is the resident oil-ologist around here. I'm sure you will find what you are looking for.
gary
He is the resident oil-ologist around here. I'm sure you will find what you are looking for.
gary
Si!:beer:
IMHO no need to search. There is no comparison. Mobil 1 is by far the best.
There are many who would disagree and say that Amsoil is better than Mobil 1. I for one am not going to spend what Amsoil asks for in price and I think Mobil 1 is a good compromise in price.
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:shrug: Forgive me if this has been asked...
Mobil 1 and others that I have seen only offer 0/5w-30 weight oil and Ford loads us up with 5w-20...why would you go to a thicker oil? With the minimal clearance of the internal engine components I would think that 5w-30 would do more harm than good, especially in cold climates.
I always used Mobil ! 10w-30 in my 98 and I'm just trying to get all the info before my 1st oil change on the 03.
Mobil 1 and others that I have seen only offer 0/5w-30 weight oil and Ford loads us up with 5w-20...why would you go to a thicker oil? With the minimal clearance of the internal engine components I would think that 5w-30 would do more harm than good, especially in cold climates.
I always used Mobil ! 10w-30 in my 98 and I'm just trying to get all the info before my 1st oil change on the 03.
From what I understand in 2001 Ford and Honda specified 5W-20 for most cars and trucks. One of the main reasons 5W-20 was to increase the CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) reported to the Federal Government.
5W-30 is NOT going to hurt 'especially' in cold climates. If you understand oil and the naming properties you will understand that 5W-30 is the same weight as 5W-20 when cold. They will both flow like a 5W oil.
For example, a 5W-30. "W" means winter. In winter weather the 5W-30 oil will flow like a 5W oil, and the 5W-20 will flow like a 5W oil just until the engine warms up. After the engine is at operating temperatures then the oil will flow different. 5W-30 will flow like a 30W and 5W-20 will flow like a 20W.
5W-30 is NOT going to hurt 'especially' in cold climates. If you understand oil and the naming properties you will understand that 5W-30 is the same weight as 5W-20 when cold. They will both flow like a 5W oil.
For example, a 5W-30. "W" means winter. In winter weather the 5W-30 oil will flow like a 5W oil, and the 5W-20 will flow like a 5W oil just until the engine warms up. After the engine is at operating temperatures then the oil will flow different. 5W-30 will flow like a 30W and 5W-20 will flow like a 20W.
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Check out the FAQ. I believe I have a link in there for the oil-related articles...
It is not only a matter of clearance - that is a common misunderstanding. Some of the "tightest" engine builders in the world (BMW for one) use heavy weight oils. As an example, they had used 20w50 oils for years in the M3 - they went to a 5w40 oil in the new E46, and then went back to a 10w60 weight, even though internal tolerances had not changed. These were all synoils BTW, usually Castrol R, a decent but not exceptional product.
It's all about flow rate, anticipated usage, environmental concerns, climate, CAFE, etc. I previously "exposed" Ford's decision on 5w20, which is why i do not use it.
Proper lubrication is not just about viscosity - you also have to factor in the additive package. Amsoil and Red Line use extremely costly additives, Mobil 1 and others use lesser ones. Additives affect not only drain interval extension, but wear protection in boundary lubrication interfaces (that means when the oil film is compromised, and metal to metal is imminent). Sacrificial salts and other additives protect against boundary induced wear. Oil pump capacity, design of the oil galleys, etc. determine flow rate, which affects both cooling capacity and protection against film breakdown.
Now, what is the implication? Well, a tribologist can developed a low viscosity oil with outstanding wear protection. That provides the best mileage, lowest emissions, highest net horsepower, etc. This is just what Amsoil, for example, has done with its Series 2000, which is an 0w30, perfectly compatible with a car recommending 5w20 sewing machine oil, but with the premier additives to reduce wear. That is one reason Amsoil Series 2000 can produce better results on the 4-ball wear test, which simulates the conditions of boundary lubrication previously described, while being low vis.
Somene mentioned that the 2000 'R" used 15w50 Mobil 1 - did it have the exact same oil pump as the 4.6L Cobra engines? What was its intended use - extended high temperature track racing, no? Oil requirements for those conditions and in that specific engine may be quite different then what is best for those of us eho drive the car on the street, in varying climates, and only with occasional high load demands on the engine.
That is why I use and recommend 0w30 Amsoil for those that are willing to spend the $'s. Red Line is also an outstanding oil, and I could use its 5w20 product with complete confidence if I had worries about "using what Ford says", which I do not, since they cannot tell what you are using unless it pours like molasses.
The top oils in my opinion are Amsoil S2K, Red Line, Motul, NEO. They are top tier, Group IV or Group V synlubes. They use the best base stocks and additives.
Lesser synoils include the Group III synlubes such as Pennzoil, Castrol Syntec, and Valvoline, and ones that use Group III/GroupIV combinations, usually a PAO with a small amount of di-ester or polyol-ester, or another synfluid, such as Mobil 1. I do not consider these fortified oils to be true synthetics, but after the issue was decided in court a few years back, they have the legal right to make that claim.
Again, any of these lubes is outstanding. In fact, today's mineral oils are much closer to what passes for synthetic today than in the past, when the ester-based synoils were clearly a cut above the rest. Pennzoil Mult-Vis, for examples, uses purification and plyisomeriozation techniques that give it near synoil performance, at least for 3-5k miles.
Hope this helps.
C'03
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Cobra'03, you clearly have an understanding of all things oil. Either that or you should be selling sand to the arabs. I have a VERY general understanding of what you're saying. My question is, with the Amsoil or Red Line at what intervals would you change the oil? Thanks
ps What exactly do you do for a living that you know so much about engine oil? And please don't say "nothing but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night..."
ps What exactly do you do for a living that you know so much about engine oil? And please don't say "nothing but I slept in a Holiday Inn Express last night..."
QUOTE] Cobra'03
The top oils in my opinion are Amsoil S2K, Red Line, Motul, NEO. They are top tier, Group IV or Group V synlubes. They use the best base stocks and additives. ][/QUOTE]
The Group IV and V you refer to are two of five base stock categories the API has defined. These are part of the API Base Oil Interchangeability Guidelines. This information is intended for Oil Blenders and defines the minimum testing requirements when substituting one base stock for another. The Group IV base stocks are polyalphaolefins, Group V are base stocks from anything not included in Group I, II or III.
And one could argue whether the Group IV polyalphaolefins is the very best base stock for a synthetic oil, versus POA / synthetic blends. But I believe it is incorrect to state what is a "Top Oil" because of the API base stock grouping. Further, as none of these companies actually reveal what their additive package is, that leaves the API Service Classification and advertising hype for a buyer to make his choice of which oil to use.
No flame intended to Cobra ‘03, but the question was regarding synthetic oil comparisons, and I didn't read in your post any references to comparisons or the analitical information behind some of your statements.
The top oils in my opinion are Amsoil S2K, Red Line, Motul, NEO. They are top tier, Group IV or Group V synlubes. They use the best base stocks and additives. ][/QUOTE]
The Group IV and V you refer to are two of five base stock categories the API has defined. These are part of the API Base Oil Interchangeability Guidelines. This information is intended for Oil Blenders and defines the minimum testing requirements when substituting one base stock for another. The Group IV base stocks are polyalphaolefins, Group V are base stocks from anything not included in Group I, II or III.
And one could argue whether the Group IV polyalphaolefins is the very best base stock for a synthetic oil, versus POA / synthetic blends. But I believe it is incorrect to state what is a "Top Oil" because of the API base stock grouping. Further, as none of these companies actually reveal what their additive package is, that leaves the API Service Classification and advertising hype for a buyer to make his choice of which oil to use.
No flame intended to Cobra ‘03, but the question was regarding synthetic oil comparisons, and I didn't read in your post any references to comparisons or the analitical information behind some of your statements.
Where did I say that Group classifications, by themselves, are indices of quality? I clearly stated other factors as well. I spent nearly a paragraph on additives.
However, the Group classifications go up in estimated lubricating quality from G1 to G5, which you did not mention. GIII oils are much better than GII's, for example. That classification is generally accepted in the trade as being serially improved from low to high, just as the classifications of SA have been ecclipsed by every subsequent classification, now that we are at SJ.
Group V is primarily made up of esters. You can read all about them at links I have enclosed, and while they do not guarantee the best lubricant, their properties are intrinsically the best in terms of film strength, high temp stability, etc. I would direct you to the excellent Hatco analysis as well as the Ultrachem - in the severest lubricating demands on earth : jet engines, mfg equipment, refrigerators, they are the lubricant of choice.
Also read the Exxon blurb - they make esters and PAO's, and state that esters are the oil of choice for engines.
The Lubrizol will give a good overview of base stock properties, with the statement that PE's (polyol esters) are more oxidatively stable - they resist high heat the best.
Esters are generally made by reacting alcohol compounds with acids, such as corn extracts. That has environmental benefits as well, in terms of sourcing the base material domestically. Esters are also highly biodegradable. Nearly all synoils from Mobil, Valvoline, etc are either mineral oil based or made from SHF's, derived from natural gas.
My references are me - I was a tribologist for 5 years before switching to computer science after I got my EE - I had an ME from Thayer School of Engineering at Dartmouth prior to the EE, which i received from UVA. I also get i=engineering studies from a number of car mfrs, and am a member of the SAE.
Here are some useful references for those who want to read up on all things oil related - I have a whole closet full of documents and engineering studies. I also have access to PhD'd tribologists still in the trade.h
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/2/7
http://www.advancedlubes.com/html/mercon-v.html
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/10w40.htm
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/156.html
http://www.motul.com/uk/produits/index.html
http://www.noria.com/secure/product_detail.asp?catalogid=4
http://www.ultracheminc.com/chemlube_series.htm
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/engineoil_bible.html
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html
http://www.exxonmobil.com/chemical/...ilies/synthetics/applications/estersauto.html
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73376&perpage=35&pagenumber=1
http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/airfilter.html
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/dyno/conclusions.html
http://www.mgnoc.com/_disc4/000010e8.htm
http://www.pro-flow.com/mustmath.htm (lots of formulas)
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart1.htm
Are "Performance" Air Filters a Good Idea?
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/LubricantBasics/viscosity.htm
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/LubricantBasics/basestocks.htm
http://www.bimmerforums.com/AmsoilStudybyBobM3.php
However, the Group classifications go up in estimated lubricating quality from G1 to G5, which you did not mention. GIII oils are much better than GII's, for example. That classification is generally accepted in the trade as being serially improved from low to high, just as the classifications of SA have been ecclipsed by every subsequent classification, now that we are at SJ.
Group V is primarily made up of esters. You can read all about them at links I have enclosed, and while they do not guarantee the best lubricant, their properties are intrinsically the best in terms of film strength, high temp stability, etc. I would direct you to the excellent Hatco analysis as well as the Ultrachem - in the severest lubricating demands on earth : jet engines, mfg equipment, refrigerators, they are the lubricant of choice.
Also read the Exxon blurb - they make esters and PAO's, and state that esters are the oil of choice for engines.
The Lubrizol will give a good overview of base stock properties, with the statement that PE's (polyol esters) are more oxidatively stable - they resist high heat the best.
Esters are generally made by reacting alcohol compounds with acids, such as corn extracts. That has environmental benefits as well, in terms of sourcing the base material domestically. Esters are also highly biodegradable. Nearly all synoils from Mobil, Valvoline, etc are either mineral oil based or made from SHF's, derived from natural gas.
My references are me - I was a tribologist for 5 years before switching to computer science after I got my EE - I had an ME from Thayer School of Engineering at Dartmouth prior to the EE, which i received from UVA. I also get i=engineering studies from a number of car mfrs, and am a member of the SAE.
Here are some useful references for those who want to read up on all things oil related - I have a whole closet full of documents and engineering studies. I also have access to PhD'd tribologists still in the trade.h
http://physicsweb.org/article/world/15/2/7
http://www.advancedlubes.com/html/mercon-v.html
http://www.neosyntheticoil.com/10w40.htm
http://www.schaefferoil.com/data/156.html
http://www.motul.com/uk/produits/index.html
http://www.noria.com/secure/product_detail.asp?catalogid=4
http://www.ultracheminc.com/chemlube_series.htm
http://www.geocities.com/chrislonghurst/engineoil_bible.html
http://www.hatcocorporation.com/pages/about_esters.html
http://www.exxonmobil.com/chemical/...ilies/synthetics/applications/estersauto.html
http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73376&perpage=35&pagenumber=1
http://www.seansa4page.com/resource/airfilter.html
http://www.ibmwr.org/ktech/dyno/conclusions.html
http://www.mgnoc.com/_disc4/000010e8.htm
http://www.pro-flow.com/mustmath.htm (lots of formulas)
http://www.scuderiaciriani.com/rx7/oil_filter_study/
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart5.htm
http://www.shoclub.com/lubrication-oil/lubrication-oilpart1.htm
Are "Performance" Air Filters a Good Idea?
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/LubricantBasics/viscosity.htm
http://www.lubrizol.com/ReadyReference/LubricantBasics/basestocks.htm
http://www.bimmerforums.com/AmsoilStudybyBobM3.php
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Cobra'03: Your command of technical language is unparalleled. I'm sure your latest dissertation made a lot of beanie propellers spin. 
Mosconiac
Mosconiac
03cobrasonic
New Member
Good Lord!:rollseyes
Looks like I've got some reading to do.
Looks like I've got some reading to do.
Holy shit, you really did stay in a Holiday Inn express last night, j/k.. BTW, just what exactly is a tribologist?
Got dictionary?
Tribology:
The science of the mechanisms of friction, lubrication, and wear of interacting surfaces that are in relative motion.
Tribology:
The science of the mechanisms of friction, lubrication, and wear of interacting surfaces that are in relative motion.
Cobra03, Do you change your oil once a year as Amsoil states?? They say 1 year or 35,000 miles using there 0W30 and changing out there Filter at 6 months?
I know people are going to freak on this ( once per yr oil chg)
I know people are going to freak on this ( once per yr oil chg)
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