Rod knock in '99 Cobra - replacement options?

[CobraRed01]

Don't sweat it. All the guys in here are really helpful and certainly appreciate your predicament. Unless you are a really competent "wrench" with lots of time on your hands the cost of labor is going to be a major factor. Little way around it. Someone's going to have to pull the motor and put it back for you. It's costly not matter how you slice it. What you want to really ensure is...that it only has to be done ONCE and she runs great "out of the box". Might be worth it to spend a bit more upfront to ensure this. I would be in a similar boat, frankly.

 

[jmichalicek]

My biggest fear is that after all of the "Oh no, that's way more than it should cost, don't do it!!!!!!!" posts, these guys will also come back with basically the same cost (ie. rebuild costing significantly more than an already expensive engine swap rather than less, etc). I can only get my hopes up and then be let down to the tune of $3k-$4k so many times before I say "**** it" and go make whatever bad decision is most readily available to get the issue dealt with.

 

[WPGFORDGUY]

Pappito ( boss 330 )
or Livernois

 

[CobraRed01]

I think some of the early recommendations above assumed that you could do the engine pull, longblock reassembly and replacement yourself. When you start talking about strokers and big HP numbers you start talking $$$. You'll get a lot of opinions on the "best" way to go with all of these "do it yourself" variables. If you need to count on a shop to do the "whole nine yards" find one with a good references that will do it all at a fair price and backup there work. A couple shops have been recommended so consider those. If you cover yourself carefully and get a good job what you spend is your business.

 

[Brutal Metal]

Pappito ( boss 330 )
or Livernois

Awesome places but NOT cheap!

 

[jmichalicek]

Just got a quote from Boosted Performance. Much better looking. It's just an estimate, of course, but looks like just under $5400 for parts and labor to rebuild the motor with a forged stroker kit including new oil pump. I believe that includes actual motor removal/reinstall, but I'm verifying to be sure. I do need to check on what sort of tune it may need, I'm assuming the stock tune won't be so hot with increased ci and compression, if not dangerous to the health of the motor.

Still expensive, as expected, but much more reasonable than the quote for the used bone stock motor.

They are also recommending a valve job while it's apart for another roughly $600. Is this the sort of thing that's going to cost significantly more if I have it done later? Am I risking any sort of serious damage by not getting it done right now? I want things done right, but I need to be able to afford it.

 

[Brutal Metal]

That's a pretty good price when you throw a Stroker Kit on top of it if they pull and reinstall the new motor. You'll need to find a few things out about the machining though, is it gonna be align honed? standard bore or .020 over? And $600 seems a little pricey for the valve job, it's usually standard practice to Hot Tank the Heads,install new valve seals etc.. on a motor rebuild!

 

[brkntrxn]

Glad Donnie got back with you. I was unable to drop by this afternoon, but called and he was working on the quote when we spoke.

The quote he gave you sounds pretty much like the engine build he did for me, minus my aftermarket cams and some other stuff. More than likely (and I have no reason to doubt), that quote included removal and reinstall. Check to make sure, but that sounds like the whole deal to me.

As for a tune, yes, you should get it tuned. Donnie partners with Dan at ProDyno just south of Charlotte and will take your car to Dan's if you want Dan to tune it (you'll have to work out whether or not you pay Donnie or Dan). Dan tunes a ton of Mustangs and Cobras and is one of the well known tuners in the Carolinas.

I went with Aaron at TruDynoSports over in Conover. I am a very happy customer of his (and Boosted) and highly recommend him. He tunes on a Mustang Dyno, which is more realistic to the loading the car sees on the highways (but your numbers will read lower).

Here's a way to think about anything to do with the heads... you might as well since it is off the engine. To do it later (not in conjunction with a motor rebuild) will be much more expensive. In my opinion, any time the engine is out is a good time to have the heads given a once-over. Will you risk any serious damager later? Most likely not, but you might as well do it while it is out.


-Kevin

 

[jmichalicek]

That's a pretty good price when you throw a Stroker Kit on top of it if they pull and reinstall the new motor. You'll need to find a few things out about the machining though, is it gonna be align honed? standard bore or .020 over? And $600 seems a little pricey for the valve job, it's usually standard practice to Hot Tank the Heads,install new valve seals etc.. on a motor rebuild!

That includes going .020 over, which is probably needed, but I do intend to ask about it anyway.

What's the relevance of being align honed vs other options? I'll be hitting up google for that answer, too, but I always appreciate more points of view.

 

[jmichalicek]

Glad Donnie got back with you. I was unable to drop by this afternoon, but called and he was working on the quote when we spoke.

The quote he gave you sounds pretty much like the engine build he did for me, minus my aftermarket cams and some other stuff. More than likely (and I have no reason to doubt), that quote included removal and reinstall. Check to make sure, but that sounds like the whole deal to me.

As for a tune, yes, you should get it tuned. Donnie partners with Dan at ProDyno just south of Charlotte and will take your car to Dan's if you want Dan to tune it (you'll have to work out whether or not you pay Donnie or Dan). Dan tunes a ton of Mustangs and Cobras and is one of the well known tuners in the Carolinas.

I went with Aaron at TruDynoSports over in Conover. I am a very happy customer of his (and Boosted) and highly recommend him. He tunes on a Mustang Dyno, which is more realistic to the loading the car sees on the highways (but your numbers will read lower).

Here's a way to think about anything to do with the heads... you might as well since it is off the engine. To do it later (not in conjunction with a motor rebuild) will be much more expensive. In my opinion, any time the engine is out is a good time to have the heads given a once-over. Will you risk any serious damager later? Most likely not, but you might as well do it while it is out.


-Kevin

Yeah, I'm 99% sure it includes removal and install. There's a "Motor r&r" listed at $750, which I'm assuming is remove and reinstall (and a whole lot cheaper than the $2500 Performance autosport wanted to charge to remove and reinstall). I'm just double checking to be certain.

I'll likely go with the ProDyno option for tuning. Not sure I want to be driving/towing all over NC and I'd like to be able to just drive the car home when I pick it up rather than having to borrow a truck and rent a tow dolly or trailer again. I assume that's somewhere in the $250-$300 range for the chip and another $200-$300 or so for the tuning based on stuff I've found on google.

 

[1badblownstang]

is that with all arp hardware, billet oil pump, new chains and tensionsers etc? you need to find out exactly what your getting. 6-8k is about right for a shop to pull-rebuild-replace and do it right. Thats a forged short block, the things I listed above, and using all quality parts and replacing the items like chains and tensioners that should be replaced while you have it out. You need to make this a one time thing. How would you feel is you spend 5K and the stock oil pump gears break or a tensioner breaks in 5k miles? You also have no idea until it's out exaclty what it's going to need, the heads could be alot more than 600 it depends on many things.

What about the clutch? if there is any question replace it while the engine is out you will pay hardly any labor. Lots of stuff to think about. I'm in the same boat, and all the little stuff is really adding up quick. Good luck.

 

[brkntrxn]

Donnie is straightforward on what he recommends and is one of the best in the area.

Yes, the "r&r" is to pull and place the engine.

If you want to go with Aaron, I am sure Donnie (or I) can take your car over there as well. TruDynoSports is the same distance from the shop as ProDyno.

If you want to check up on Boosted, do some reading on CarolinaRides and more specifically, on their forum at [ame=http://www.carolinarides.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=88]Boosted Performance - CarolinaRides.com Community[/ame]

Quite a few of Donnie's customers have been in MM&FF, 5.0, etc magazines as well as Pinks, Pinks All Out, Pass Time, etc.

LOL, I'll quite nut-swinging, you can look over all of your options and decide which route is best for you.

PM me if you need me to tow your car.

-Kevin

 

[jmichalicek]

Everything included in their quote is below (obviously the oil is 1qt * 6, not just 1qt, and I may tell them to go 7 based on things I've read here). The stroker kit is an Eagle kit, I'm going to ask about the specific part #. All of the forged eagle stuff looks to be 4340 steel h-beam rods and I know I've read a lot of good about Eagle rods. They seem to use Arias pistons, which I've never heard of (which really only means they're not one of the biggest names in the business) and am not finding a whole lot of info about on google.

I'll check on the bolts. Most of the kits list what bolts they use on their website, but Eagle doesn't seem to. Of course, these don't need to be something for monster 1000hp motors, this car will likely never break 400rwhp. It's getting this rebuild and hopefully basic bolts ons in the future (but I've been saying that for years and always had more important stuff to spend the money on).

The clutch is definitely something I'm thinking about having taken care of while the motor is out.


FORGED 302 KIT, 4.6 4V, .020 OVER 10.5 TO 1 COMP
freight in
TIMING CHAINS, 4.6 2V
SMALL CAM CHAIN, 4V 4.6L
MAIN BEARINGS, 4.6 COBRA
CRANKSHAFT SEAL, 4.6
SLINGER, 4.6, FITS IN FRONT OF REAR MAIN
High volume oil pump 4.6 2V/4V
HEAD CHANGE KIT, 4.6 4V
MOTOR OIL, 5W20, 1 QT
Oil filter 4.6
antifreeze, 1 gallon
Misc shop supplies RTV,cleaners etc
SPARK PLUGS
R&R MOTOR
Disassemble 4.6L 4 valve
DECK BLOCK
BORE AND HONE CYLINDERS
FIT PINS IN RODS & PISTONS
BALANCE ASSEMBLY
DETAIL & POLISH CRANK
ASSEMBLE SHORT BLOCK
SET DECK HEIGHT & CLEARANCES
ASSEMBLE TOP END
INSTALL HEADS
DEGREE CAMS
INSTALL CHAINS
INSTALL FRONT COVER AND BALANCER

 

[jmichalicek]

Thanks, brkntrxn. From what I've seen around here, you seem to be very knowledgeable and one of the more respected people on the forum, so if you trust these guys I'm sure they're a solid shop. Certainly no worse than I'm going to find just randomly calling about.

What is everyone's thought on the stroker route? It's a now or never thing for the most part and depending on what you read, some people think they're great and others treat it as if you're asking to rebuild the engine within 6 months. I'd love to get the extra power while I can, but in the end, I'd rather have a closer to stock motor that is going to last another 100k+ miles than an extra 20-40hp and be rebuilding in a year. Is this just like the nitrous thing where 20+ years ago it was pretty risky but these days as long as you buy decent parts, install it right, and aren't a moron there's no real risk? As I believe I saw someone point out in another thread here, most of the guys with strokers don't drive them as daily drivers and they've pretty much all got 10k-15k miles on them at most so it's hard to judge the longevity.

I'll be holding off at least a couple of weeks to do more research, ask more questions, etc. I've been informed that there will be some staffing changes coming up at work in the next few weeks, so I'm going to make sure I'm not one of those changes. I shouldn't be or I probably wouldn't have been informed, but better to be safe.

 

[Brutal Metal]

is that with all arp hardware, billet oil pump, new chains and tensionsers etc? you need to find out exactly what your getting. 6-8k is about right for a shop to pull-rebuild-replace and do it right. Thats a forged short block, the things I listed above, and using all quality parts and replacing the items like chains and tensioners that should be replaced while you have it out. You need to make this a one time thing. How would you feel is you spend 5K and the stock oil pump gears break or a tensioner breaks in 5k miles? You also have no idea until it's out exaclty what it's going to need, the heads could be alot more than 600 it depends on many things.

When I did my Forged rebuild at 59K I reused the chains and tensioners and the clutch still looked new so I threw the stocker back in!!:rockon:
If I had 150K on the motor the chains would have been replaced plus I had a set of new Primaries off an 01 Cobra that I didn't need to use!
And YES I'd have them put in 7 quarts of 5W30(not 20)!

 

[1badblownstang]

I understand brutal, but for a guy who is not going to pull his own motor, 2K in labor is really something to think about. I personally would replace every damn thing I could afford.

Eagle is great I talk to the boss alot, they are local to me. Thier stroker kit is the best on the market and you will not need a rebuild in 6 months. On a daily driven car expect a motor refresh in 50K miles on average. Arias has been around a long time I used thier pistons in chevy motors probably before you were born, LOL.

The list you made looks complete but there are a few things I either missed or were left out. I did not see any ARP main or head studs, these are a must IMHO. Also find out if the that is a melling oil pump with billet gears, and not just the FMS high volumn.

If you want my honest opinion the only reason to go stroker is if your crank is bad. Use the money other places in the build and make the bottom end indestructible. You can always add the bottle of FI to get HP. Never go into a build saying "it will never be over 400HP anyway" I promise, and you can ask around here, that will change. There are guys here that their 600hp cars do not feel fast to them anymore.

Like I said before DO THIS ONCE! You will thank me later.

 

[jmichalicek]

Yeah, I do need to check on the main and head studs. Based on brkntrxn's opinion of these guys, it probably is ARP stuff, but it's definitely always best to double check.

The oil pump is probably the FMS one, it's priced at $50 or $60.

My reasoning on the stroker kit is this. I'm almost the opposite of a lot of you guys with the way I've handled this car. It's 10 years old and I've owned it for 7 or so of them. I've been going to do the various bolt ons since day 1, but when it comes down to it, the car is already fast and fun to drive, so I always have something else I would prefer or need to spend the money on instead. If/when I do decide to do the bolt ons, I can do those 1 at a time for $100-$500 a pop, and now that I've got a second car I can drive I can take those opportunities to learn to do the work on the car myself. The stroker kit is going to be thousands whether I do it now or in 2 years or 5 years and is not likely something I'll ever have the place, skill, and tools to do myself. So since I've got to spend several thousand to replace most/all of the parts that would be replaced with a stroker kit, I might as well do it now.

I get what you're saying with skipping the stroker and putting the extra money towards other parts. If I cut out $1000 or so for the crank, that frees up money to do other tune up stuff and other bolt ons. It's also a route I'm considering going.

 

[CobraRed01]

Now ask yourself...if dependability and do it just "once" is what you are after...is there a downside to going "stroker" with these motors? I always thought there were piston skirts issues with the 4.6 mod motors and stroking these engines was a little risky because of this. I may be wrong, but the pros can weigh in one last time. Based on all the good input and your research this sounds like the last Q you might need to consider.

 

[jmichalicek]

Yep, I've asked about the stroker thing a couple of times in here and have been doing quite a bit of research about it. I understand it's going to reduce the life of the motor some, that's fine. Getting 150k instead of 200k out of it or whatever is no big deal. Getting 20k max out of it, of course, is not. So I am definitely trying to find out how much merit there is to the stroker reliability issues and how much of it is like the "Don't use nitrous or you'll blow up your motor" thing, where sure, 20+ years ago with how things were built and how it was being done that may have been true but with modern technology, correctly built equipment designed for it, etc. it's not going to screw things up significantly faster as long as you're not being a moron and flooring it from every light and hitting 6k+ rpms every chance you get.

I do need to ask 1badblowstang what is meant by "refresh" every 50k miles or so. Refresh as in new pistons? Refresh as in the standard 60k or 100k maintenance?

 

[1badblownstang]

Call Eagle and ask for Robert. Tell him Jeff (1badblownstang) sent you. He is running that exact kit in his personal vehicle. I'm not saying the 50,000 on the dot, but there is good chance somewhere after 50,000 miles that you will need to do rings and bearings.

I understand your stroker pick, just was not sure about your budget. If I could afford it right now I would do it also, and I would sell my cobra crank. I got such a good deal on the short block in my sig that i had no other choice but to go in that direction. I promise you will not be dissappointed with eagles stuff, I 've ran their kits in all my mustangs.