probably gonna piss a lot of people off, but i gotta ask:

[reason4treason]

I don't know if anyone is aware of what's going on with the Z/28, especially the 2014 but also with the '15 too, so it's not just a matter of it being 'old stock.'


New Z/28s are selling for $15 - $20,000 discounts right now. Take a look on cars.com and autotrader.


What exactly will the '16 GT350 offer to avoid the same fate? I'm sure some will think, "just don't make it a Camaro...problem solved." But will that really be sufficient?


Do you think Z/28 just went too track-focused? For example having a single speaker seems like a bridge too far.


If that is the case, what's GT350 going to fo to present a more rounded offering? Or do you think it's greatest strength is to be as purely track focused as economics and technology will allow?


Don't mean to diss Ford but is there something the Blue Oval could learn from the General in this situation?

 

[DSG2003SVT]

The Z28 was a $75,000 Camaro. Therein lies the problem. Not only that, it couldn't be considered a driver by 99% of people. It was pretty much either going to be bought by collectors, or people who wanted a track car just legal enough to drive to the track.

The GT350 is supposedly going to start around $53,000, which is a much better price already. It's also going to have MagRide, a back seat, a full stereo, luxury options, etc. It's going to have all the available creature comforts of a normal Mustang, but it's going to be a much faster and unique option. When compared to the current Camaro lineup, it will have the comfort of the ZL1 with the handling of the Z28. I think it will be much more successful than the Z28. I don't see them discounting it by 25%+ any time soon, that's for sure.

 

[reason4treason]

The Z28 was a $75,000 Camaro. Therein lies the problem. Not only that, it couldn't be considered a driver by 99% of people. It was pretty much either going to be bought by collectors, or people who wanted a track car just legal enough to drive to the track.

The GT350 is supposedly going to start around $53,000, which is a much better price already. It's also going to have MagRide, a back seat, a full stereo, luxury options, etc. It's going to have all the available creature comforts of a normal Mustang, but it's going to be a much faster and unique option. When compared to the current Camaro lineup, it will have the comfort of the ZL1 with the handling of the Z28. I think it will be much more successful than the Z28. I don't see them discounting it by 25%+ any time soon, that's for sure.

well there seems to be quite a few of them, so there goes the rarity factor. it does have a backseat...not 60/40 though, and my head was touching the headliner when i tried sitting back there and I'm just average height. the Recaros really are pretty awesome as are the 305s. sick-looking on the front corners. also is reported to tram pretty bad though, and no auto surprises me.

GM has a knack for markdowns but Ford doesn't...at least not to the degree that can be seen in just a year or two on a Chevy product. 53K msrp is '13/14 GT500 pricing and adding the 'creature comforts' puts it at 69-70K which means with the exception of those fortunate enough to ferret out below-msrp pricing, $70K is where it'll probably stay. I asked my dealer who I got my $1K over invoice '13 GT500 if I could get an agreement for a similar price on the GT350. this was a couple of weeks ago and he says he's already had a bunch of people asking about it already.

do you think that 525 hp or thereabouts at GT500 pricing is going to make any significant difference in demand? and what's going to happen if '17 brings us a Hellcat killer, which I'd guess they're just plain obligated to come up with, no? do you think we're in for $80K GT500s in two years? Hellcats don't have much in the way of options and the demand seems extremely large for those...they do pride themselves on its streetability though so maybe that even a bigger factor than a lengthy options menu. reading Hellcat forums, I was surprised how many females are chasing one of those. one guy is even putting snowtires on his already. not my cup of tea, but seems like lots of flex went into creating such a broad appeal.

 

[hognutz]

I don't know if anyone is aware of what's going on with the Z/28, especially the 2014 but also with the '15 too, so it's not just a matter of it being 'old stock.'


New Z/28s are selling for $15 - $20,000 discounts right now. Take a look on cars.com and autotrader.


What exactly will the '16 GT350 offer to avoid the same fate? I'm sure some will think, "just don't make it a Camaro...problem solved." But will that really be sufficient?


Do you think Z/28 just went too track-focused? For example having a single speaker seems like a bridge too far.


If that is the case, what's GT350 going to fo to present a more rounded offering? Or do you think it's greatest strength is to be as purely track focused as economics and technology will allow?


Don't mean to diss Ford but is there something the Blue Oval could learn from the General in this situation?

well the GT350 in my opinion is more of a zl1 price competitor in my mind I hope it runs with the z28 but the z28 laps faster than the C7 even and really does well. the Z28 is 75k which I have always though was lame though and have always felt the bottom would drop out. I own a zl1 right now and am not a camaro hater or anthing but 75k on no planet would I pay that???

now pricing is not published on this car but if it is the 50-55k the reason you won't lose that kind of money is it should just perfrom for the $$$.

a base c7 z06 is 78k how to you sell a z28 for 75k.


the one thing the z28 does do though is just turn in great lap times period and I am crossing my fingers the gt350 is as quick but if it laps as good or better than a zl1 or c7 and is as quick or better as a c7 in drag race I am buying one for sure and I don't see reasale being to much of an issue unless there are technical isssues with the 5.2L or the tr-3160.

 

[Devious_Snake]

Corvette.

 

[reason4treason]

whadya mean? just spend the money on a Vette if you're even looking in that direction and spare yourself the aggravation? boardwalk has 3 '14s marked down 4K, 5K+. and 8.5K+

I've looked at used ZR1s lately. they are already into the upper $60Ks and that's even for '10s and one '11 I saw. there's a '13 3ZR at bob baker bmw in so cal and I was trying to tell him that once thousands of superior performance C7 Z06 get out there within a year people are going to be losing their asses on ZR1s that they're even trying to sell for $90K now. he's still got a bunch of time to sell the one he's got but he wants 82K. I tried talking him into $70 and he wouldn't go for it.

it's gotta be hell selling GM products just for the reason that you're always trying to hit a moving target. hell you can look at new '14 GT500s listed and although I'm sure there's negotiating room there to some degree, in general, prices remain surprisingly stable

 

[Backorder]

Ford doesn't need discounts because they price their cars reasonably to begin with. Either the Z was 20k overpriced or GM is losing money and I don't see the later, maybe a bit of both.

The Z is a track car that isn't so great on the road. At least the people who shelled out 70k for a GT500 got insane power AND a very liveable daily driver. It'll be the same with the 350. A car that is great on the street and the track, not terrible at either and it will start at a reasonable price.

Yet another note, I've always been harsh on the chevy interior...go sit in a 2013 boss then a z28 and tell me which interior and dash looks the cheapest. To me it's chevy with the oddly placed play toy looking stereo and the painted plastic gauge housing. They built a car that is great for the track and terrible on interior and daily driving (so I've heard). 350 won't be that way.

 

[1 Alibi 2]

There was no market for a 75K Camaro, just like there wasn't a for a 102K Viper..

 

[hognutz]

whadya mean? just spend the money on a Vette if you're even looking in that direction and spare yourself the aggravation? boardwalk has 3 '14s marked down 4K, 5K+. and 8.5K+

I've looked at used ZR1s lately. they are already into the upper $60Ks and that's even for '10s and one '11 I saw. there's a '13 3ZR at bob baker bmw in so cal and I was trying to tell him that once thousands of superior performance C7 Z06 get out there within a year people are going to be losing their asses on ZR1s that they're even trying to sell for $90K now. he's still got a bunch of time to sell the one he's got but he wants 82K. I tried talking him into $70 and he wouldn't go for it.

it's gotta be hell selling GM products just for the reason that you're always trying to hit a moving target. hell you can look at new '14 GT500s listed and although I'm sure there's negotiating room there to some degree, in general, prices remain surprisingly stable

I have never had any issue selling cars personally. then again I buought the car at supplier way back when when everbody was paying MSRP or over so I m not the dummy who paid 60k+ for my zl1 trying to get as much a new one.

Corvette has 100% less backseat than I need. two young daugters right now plus I have had a couple them recently. I don't want a 13-14 GT500 as it handles worse and rides stiffer than what I have now. there is no advantage from my current possition to buy 13-14 GT500 since I am at 585whp power wise it is just too simliar.


I really want a lighter car that uses the power a bit better than either the Zl1 or the gt500. I would buy a c7 though if it was not for having young children.


what I really wanted in 2012 was a boss 302 without the MT-82 and leather or a camaro 1le with an ls7 for 47-48 but we know how that all worked out niether were built.

 

[Chris!]

Rebates and discounts are apologies for a price that's too high in the 1st place.

 

[GTSpartan]

Rebates and discounts are apologies for a price that's too high in the 1st place.

Or a crafty way to make you feel like you got a great deal.

It's done all the time in retail.

 

[Chris!]

Or a crafty way to make you feel like you got a great deal.

It's done all the time in retail.

Well. Yes. But in the case of the Camaro... It's an apology

 

[13COBRA]

well. Yes. But in the case of the camaro... It's an apology

lol

 

[GTSpartan]

Well. Yes. But in the case of the Camaro... It's an apology

I would agree with that

 

[GT Premi]

Like everybody said, it's a $75K Camaro. The C7 Z06 is $78K. Who in his right might with the wherewithal to pay $75K for a sportscar is going to choose a barely streetable $75K Camaro over a Z06 for just $3K more?? This comes as zero surprise to me, and I predicted the price would plummet as soon as I found out what the base price of the Z06 was going to be. I mean, if it were possible, that would be like asking someone to buy a $70K GT350 when they could get a new Ford GT for just $75K. It's a no-brainer! A person would have to be either of a mega Camaro fan, someplace where no Z06s are available, or just crazy to by a Z/28 over a Z06 for damned near the same money.

 

[IamRacerX]

When I first saw the Z28 I was really into it... Then I saw the 75k price and I said lol good luck trying to sell that!!!
Well I guess they ain't selling... Saw one on autotader for 53.9k.... Now that is tempting!

IMO the GT350 will be a complete car, now a R model might be a track specialty, but the regular GT350 is going to be a real car with a tech pack, leather and other luxo goodies.
Now if I could just get over the new body style...

 

[reason4treason]

so IYO is any of the $$$ rebate apology for the quality of the core components that ARE added such as suspension, brakes, tire features, Recaro buckets, shifter quality or is it almost exclusively an apology for a shortage in quantity of at least "good" (poor - satisfactory - good - superior) quality household-level features...etc, ect. or at least what can be accessed by someone in the midst of a less than fully conscious walk down the sidewalk? who among us has not seen someone literally stop walking in the middle of a crosswalk because cyber info just took precedence over realworld info as demonstrated by its reliability, ease-of-use, or sometimes just plain more fascinatingly entertaining in a world where information is becoming more and more the opiate of the masses. IMO it IS ABSOLUTELY possible to die of boredom. Generally it's much less easy to see what led to that which we tend to boil down to assigning blame via casting our vote on what, what is primary cause and what is primary correlation.

if it's just sound system, heat warmers, NAV, how much did Z/28 really miss the ball on this one? putting together a suspension system that does superior work in an area of the vehicle that I'd assert is probably most important because you have to blend so much that MUST work AS A Coordinated System SYSTEM. handling/suspension IMO is the area where THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS OBVIOUSLY AND EXPONENTIAL CHANGE BLOWS LINEAR PROGRESS AWAY +/_. WHEN PRICES ARE DROPPED $22K on a new z/28 car that's not even been out for 1 1/2 years, that's a tough thing to summarize on a car forum regulars have only been seeing/hearing about for about 1 1/2 years.

infact as cyber info becomes increasingly relied upon as something of increasing importance regarding where we draw and/or in vivo impose the boundary, rather than as a semi-frivolous mental construct increasingly relied upon by folks who are still fascinated by the latest model of phone, and still wait in line in the dark as if they were Stones tickets where its ramifications like so many boundaries in the USA keep moving more and more in the direction of their becoming the more important and useful, as well as the go-to place to get the lastest scoop.

***how much more "advantage" room is left in 'living room grade' Z/28 Component Access info access as compared to 'car cabin grade' info access?

Remember when Dad would get into his car for work, the family enthusiastically waving good-bye from the driveway? How about the road trips with Mom and Pop leading singalongs, or the I Spy game from the backseat? Whatever happened to those days?

Traffic is what happened.

***so if your opinion is that a $22K+ apology IS IN ORDER, would you please ballpark break that down in to their major components, their cost alterations that would allow for a $76-79K Z/28? I'm not hearing anything about a drastic redux in MSRP on Z/28 along the lines of the GEN V VIPER. would you ballpark break down that $22K into its component parts? apologies can have their usefulness but an explicit statement of what will be done differently should carry a lot more weight.


Also, do you believe Ford may still have something left hanging out there that it still needs to figure out in marketing so as to avoid such a pitfall with the GT350? and regarding the risk of spillover effects onto the GT500 (or whatever it's to be called

 

[NametoShowOther]

so IYO is any of the $$$ rebate apology for the quality of the core components that ARE added such as suspension, brakes, tire features, Recaro buckets, shifter quality or is it almost exclusively an apology for a shortage in quantity of at least "good" (poor - satisfactory - good - superior) quality household-level features...etc, ect. or at least what can be accessed by someone in the midst of a less than fully conscious walk down the sidewalk? who among us has not seen someone literally stop walking in the middle of a crosswalk because cyber info just took precedence over realworld info as demonstrated by its reliability, ease-of-use, or sometimes just plain more fascinatingly entertaining in a world where information is becoming more and more the opiate of the masses. IMO it IS ABSOLUTELY possible to die of boredom. Generally it's much less easy to see what led to that which we tend to boil down to assigning blame via casting our vote on what, what is primary cause and what is primary correlation.

if it's just sound system, heat warmers, NAV, how much did Z/28 really miss the ball on this one? putting together a suspension system that does superior work in an area of the vehicle that I'd assert is probably most important because you have to blend so much that MUST work AS A Coordinated System SYSTEM. handling/suspension IMO is the area where THE WHOLE IS GREATER THAN THE SUM OF ITS PARTS OBVIOUSLY AND EXPONENTIAL CHANGE BLOWS LINEAR PROGRESS AWAY +/_. WHEN PRICES ARE DROPPED $22K on a new z/28 car that's not even been out for 1 1/2 years, that's a tough thing to summarize on a car forum regulars have only been seeing/hearing about for about 1 1/2 years.

infact as cyber info becomes increasingly relied upon as something of increasing importance regarding where we draw and/or in vivo impose the boundary, rather than as a semi-frivolous mental construct increasingly relied upon by folks who are still fascinated by the latest model of phone, and still wait in line in the dark as if they were Stones tickets where its ramifications like so many boundaries in the USA keep moving more and more in the direction of their becoming the more important and useful, as well as the go-to place to get the lastest scoop.

***how much more "advantage" room is left in 'living room grade' Z/28 Component Access info access as compared to 'car cabin grade' info access?

Remember when Dad would get into his car for work, the family enthusiastically waving good-bye from the driveway? How about the road trips with Mom and Pop leading singalongs, or the I Spy game from the backseat? Whatever happened to those days?

Traffic is what happened.

***so if your opinion is that a $22K+ apology IS IN ORDER, would you please ballpark break that down in to their major components, their cost alterations that would allow for a $76-79K Z/28? I'm not hearing anything about a drastic redux in MSRP on Z/28 along the lines of the GEN V VIPER. would you ballpark break down that $22K into its component parts? apologies can have their usefulness but an explicit statement of what will be done differently should carry a lot more weight.


Also, do you believe Ford may still have something left hanging out there that it still needs to figure out in marketing so as to avoid such a pitfall with the GT350? and regarding the risk of spillover effects onto the GT500 (or whatever it's to be called

.?

 

[Chris!]

Tl;dr

 

[hognutz]

I think you are over thinking it. demand sets price and inventory levels set discounts most of the time. you get too many vehicles on the ground companies are going to discount them not to have to much inventory in the world. or in the case of the z/28 I really think it being so close to the z06 price just kills it.

I know I was goign to buy a 2008 SRT 8 challenger and the dealer wanted 10k over msrp and when I said I can buy a corvette for that he said well then buy a corvette. I mean at some point why are going to buy a 75k camaro when you can buy a 78k corvette that destroy's it in every catagory.


The interesting thing about this 20% of MSRP that chevy did is it does not publicly really state that it applies to Z/28's or zl1's it just says inventory on the lots the longest but people are getting the deal. I think chevy overproduced when you overproduce you can't set high prices. If ford had built 8-10k GT500 in 13-14 you would see the same thing. they were smarter and built more to demand. there are less of them so they hold there value better.


I don't feel like this will happen to the GT350 as long as they don't ask 60-65K for it. if they come in at 52-55k like the C7 or ZL1 it should perform with them or better and cost the same. plus ford seem to produce more to demand on the special edition cars. I mean 2013 GT500 production was ~4,800 and Zl1 production was ~8,000 which is going to hold it's value better. if knew GM would flood the market I may have argued more with my wife about buying the GT500.