now that I'm drinking the kool-aid, monitoring tips

[dlaude]

Ok something I've been reading about is a wide band, and I think I should get one, especially since they do an E70 winter blend around here. So, that being said, do you guys have any other suggestions for things to help monitor it? Or just things in general that would help? All my mods are: lethal triple pump return system, 80 lb injectors, mafia, plugs, 2.76, BF idlers, JLT true cold air, prochamber, borla stingers, and a conservative E70 tune. Got Ray's boost overlay so I don't need a pillar boost gauge (love it, thanks Ray!). I like the stock interior look, but I am thinking a wideband would be worth it. Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[04sleeper]

A wideband is a great investment for any boosted car!

Here's what I recommend. https://hinsonsupercars.com/p-946-ngk-powerdex-afx-wideband-kit.aspx

What was the A/F and timing on your tune?

 

[dlaude]

Oh yeah, meant to mention that as well. 25 degrees and I believe he said the A/F was about 10. I don't remember exactly because he threw a bunch of A/F figures at my at one time, something along the lines of "I set it to 9.8, but once it switches to E85 and you start putting that in, it'll go up a bit, about .6 or .7, but I allowed for a full point just in case, which would be 10.8...it will be ok, but you need to bring it back in".

How difficult are widebands to install? It'd be cool if it was just an exhaust bung, I could handle that install easily! I like how that doesn't go on the pillar, but where does it go? Do you have any pictures of it installed on your car? The more stock looking the better, IMO! (says the guy with the mystichrome haha).

 

[04sleeper]

Oh yeah, meant to mention that as well. 25 degrees and I believe he said the A/F was about 10. I don't remember exactly because he threw a bunch of A/F figures at my at one time, something along the lines of "I set it to 9.8, but once it switches to E85 and you start putting that in, it'll go up a bit, about .6 or .7, but I allowed for a full point just in case, which would be 10.8...it will be ok, but you need to bring it back in".

9.8 on a Gasoline Scale Wideband? That sounds WAAAAAAAAY to rich for E85. Needs to be around 11.4 A/F on E70.

Even if it were set to E85 on the wideband that would be an A/F of 7.60 for your target. Could you find out?

How difficult are widebands to install? It'd be cool if it was just an exhaust bung, I could handle that install easily! I like how that doesn't go on the pillar, but where does it go?

Most run these in the glovebox.

Do you have any pictures of it installed on your car? The more stock looking the better, IMO! (says the guy with the mystichrome haha).

I have a Speedhut analog A/F gauge mounted in a Speed Of Sound Pillar Pod.

Click here for pics.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2191722/2004-ford-mustang/page-5

 

[dlaude]

9.8 on a Gasoline Scale Wideband? That sounds WAAAAAAAAY to rich for E85. Needs to be around 11.4 A/F on E70.

Even if it were set to E85 on the wideband that would be an A/F of 7.60 for your target. Could you find out?

Yes, I'll get back to you.

Most run these in the glovebox.

Oh, ok, cool. That would be subtle! haha. I asked about other things that might be monitored because I don't see a one gauge pod too often, and figured I'd probably have to go with a two gauge pod (like yours) and if A/F filled one slot, I'd need something else. However if nothing else needs monitoring and the one you linked can go in my glovebox, then sweet!

OH YEAH, something else that popped into my head, is there an ethanol tester that is recommended?

 

[04sneaky_snake]

Yes, I'll get back to you.





Oh, ok, cool. That would be subtle! haha. I asked about other things that might be monitored because I don't see a one gauge pod too often, and figured I'd probably have to go with a two gauge pod (like yours) and if A/F filled one slot, I'd need something else. However if nothing else needs monitoring and the one you linked can go in my glovebox, then sweet!

OH YEAH, something else that popped into my head, is there an ethanol tester that is recommended?

There is a pod that goes on your steering column that mounts just a single gauge. I don't see mounting an AFR gauge in your glovebox helping at all. Unless you just like to drive with your glovebox open all the time lol.

 

[BruceH]

More than likely the 9.8 was stoich. That's the air fuel ratio needed pre combustion to obtain lambda post combustion. Post combustion lambda of 1 is always about 14.7 on a gas scale no matter what the fuel.

It's quite possible he tuned your car at 10.8 stoich and sent you home with a 9.8 stoich tune in anticipation of summer blend. Your car would only know the difference during open loop (wot) and all that would happen is it would be rich with E70.

The best way (imo) short of testing the fuel at every fill up is to monitor fuel trims in closed loop, they will increase when the blend contains more ethanol because the fuel stoich has changed and the ecu will add more fuel to get post combustion a/f correct.

 

[04sleeper]

More than likely the 9.8 was stoich. That's the air fuel ratio needed pre combustion to obtain lambda post combustion. Post combustion lambda of 1 is always about 14.7 on a gas scale no matter what the fuel.

It's quite possible he tuned your car at 10.8 stoich and sent you home with a 9.8 stoich tune in anticipation of summer blend. Your car would only know the difference during open loop (wot) and all that would happen is it would be rich with E70.

The best way (imo) short of testing the fuel at every fill up is to monitor fuel trims in closed loop, they will increase when the blend contains more ethanol because the fuel stoich has changed and the ecu will add more fuel to get post combustion a/f correct.

If he set the stoich in the tune to 10.8 and tuned to 9.8 that would only be a Lambda of .9074. That is too lean for a blower car. It would need to be closer to .7991 Lambda or 20% rich or .7787 if he left some headroom for seasonal blends.

If he did tune his car on a 10.8 Stoich that would be an A/F of 8.41 or if he tuned his car on a 9.8 Stoich he would need an A/F of 7.63.

The OP was talking in A/F, so this leads me to believe something else was going on.

Maybe he was confused? I would still like to know.

 

[dlaude]

If he set the stoich in the tune to 10.8 and tuned to 9.8 that would only be a Lambda of .9074. That is too lean for a blower car. It would need to be closer to .7991 Lambda or 20% rich or .7787 if he left some headroom for seasonal blends.

If he did tune his car on a 10.8 Stoich that would be an A/F of 8.41 or if he tuned his car on a 9.8 Stoich he would need an A/F of 7.63.

The OP was talking in A/F, so this leads me to believe something else was going on.

Maybe he was confused? I would still like to know.

Yes, I was (am) confused haha.

More than likely the 9.8 was stoich. That's the air fuel ratio needed pre combustion to obtain lambda post combustion. Post combustion lambda of 1 is always about 14.7 on a gas scale no matter what the fuel.

It's quite possible he tuned your car at 10.8 stoich and sent you home with a 9.8 stoich tune in anticipation of summer blend. Your car would only know the difference during open loop (wot) and all that would happen is it would be rich with E70.

The best way (imo) short of testing the fuel at every fill up is to monitor fuel trims in closed loop, they will increase when the blend contains more ethanol because the fuel stoich has changed and the ecu will add more fuel to get post combustion a/f correct.

This sounds like what he was saying, however I sent him an email and below is his reply. Let me know how you guys agree.

"Gas scale,not lambda.. 10.8 on e70.. Car should be tuned to 11.8 but I
left if fat incase they switch to E85 on you without you knowing. E85 will
lean it out almost 1 full point. That is why I want to see the car again
once the fuel changes."

 

[dlaude]

There is a pod that goes on your steering column that mounts just a single gauge. I don't see mounting an AFR gauge in your glovebox helping at all. Unless you just like to drive with your glovebox open all the time lol.

Would I really need to monitor it constantly, though? Or just when I'm not sure when they switch blends? IE - soon after each fill-up?

 

[BruceH]

If he set the stoich in the tune to 10.8 and tuned to 9.8 that would only be a Lambda of .9074. That is too lean for a blower car. It would need to be closer to .7991 Lambda or 20% rich or .7787 if he left some headroom for seasonal blends.

If he did tune his car on a 10.8 Stoich that would be an A/F of 8.41 or if he tuned his car on a 9.8 Stoich he would need an A/F of 7.63.

The OP was talking in A/F, so this leads me to believe something else was going on.

Maybe he was confused? I would still like to know.

I'm talking about tuning with sct prp. The stoich is used for closed loop and needs to be set to the fuel being used. Fuel trims will always be trying to adjust for 1 lambda in closed loop.

Fueling tables determine open loop (wot) a/f since the o2 sensors are taken out of the now open loop. The table cells are populated in lambda and the stoich entered into the software is what those tables will use as a lambda reference for air and fuel mixture.

 

[dlaude]

Yes, I was (am) confused haha.



This sounds like what he was saying, however I sent him an email and below is his reply. Let me know how you guys agree.

"Gas scale,not lambda.. 10.8 on e70.. Car should be tuned to 11.8 but I
left if fat incase they switch to E85 on you without you knowing. E85 will
lean it out almost 1 full point. That is why I want to see the car again
once the fuel changes."

I take it this is what you guys were expecting to hear?

 

[04sleeper]

Yes, I was (am) confused haha.
This sounds like what he was saying, however I sent him an email and below is his reply. Let me know how you guys agree.
"Gas scale,not lambda.. 10.8 on e70.. Car should be tuned to 11.8 but I
left if fat incase they switch to E85 on you without you knowing. E85 will
lean it out almost 1 full point. That is why I want to see the car again
once the fuel changes."

OK. I personally would tune for 11.4 on E70 but that's just me. I hasve never seen it change a full point from E70 to E85. Not even half a point really. More like .4. But ever tuner is different. I just don't like the idea of running that rich. It will not have any issues at 11.4 even if the fuel changes to E85.

I'm talking about tuning with sct prp. The stoich is used for closed loop and needs to be set to the fuel being used. Fuel trims will always be trying to adjust for 1 lambda in closed loop.

Fueling tables determine open loop (wot) a/f since the o2 sensors are taken out of the now open loop. The table cells are populated in lambda and the stoich entered into the software is what those tables will use as a lambda reference for air and fuel mixture.

Got ya. :thumbsup:

I take it this is what you guys were expecting to hear?

Yes. But it still a tad rich for my personal taste.

 

[04sneaky_snake]

Would I really need to monitor it constantly, though? Or just when I'm not sure when they switch blends? IE - soon after each fill-up?

The whole point of an AFR gauge IMO is to make sure that your A/F is always right. If you're not constantly monitoring it and say a fuel pump goes out, or something causes an extremely lean situation you'd be SOL. Whereas if you were always monitoring the AFR you could see the spike and potentially stop it from causing bigger issues.

There are much better and easier ways to test for percentage of ethanol in fuel.

 

[2FNFAST]

The whole point of an AFR gauge IMO is to make sure that your A/F is always right. If you're not constantly monitoring it and say a fuel pump goes out, or something causes an extremely lean situation you'd be SOL. Whereas if you were always monitoring the AFR you could see the spike and potentially stop it from causing bigger issues.

There are much better and easier ways to test for percentage of ethanol in fuel.

This. My wideband is the one and most important gauge, that is in my face with the steering column pod, and I watch it as much as physically possible at WOT.

 

[dlaude]

The whole point of an AFR gauge IMO is to make sure that your A/F is always right. If you're not constantly monitoring it and say a fuel pump goes out, or something causes an extremely lean situation you'd be SOL. Whereas if you were always monitoring the AFR you could see the spike and potentially stop it from causing bigger issues.

There are much better and easier ways to test for percentage of ethanol in fuel.

I see your point, I'm thinking about going with the pillar or the steering wheel placement now. Thanks. What did you mean by your last sentence? Can you elaborate on the better and easier ways to test percentage? Thanks.

This. My wideband is the one and most important gauge, that is in my face with the steering column pod, and I watch it as much as physically possible at WOT.

That's a good point. Which steering column pod do you have? How is the fit?

OK. I personally would tune for 11.4 on E70 but that's just me. I hasve never seen it change a full point from E70 to E85. Not even half a point really. More like .4. But ever tuner is different. I just don't like the idea of running that rich. It will not have any issues at 11.4 even if the fuel changes to E85.
Yes. But it still a tad rich for my personal taste.

Yeah, to each his own, I s'pose. He did say he only expects it to go up about a half point or so, but he was just being safe when he left it at 10.8

 

[stkjock]

my .02 - buy a tester and check the blend when you fill up

 

[04sneaky_snake]

my .02 - buy a tester and check the blend when you fill up

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/distillery-374/737837-e85-test.html

There you go bud!

 

[dlaude]

my .02 - buy a tester and check the blend when you fill up

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/distillery-374/737837-e85-test.html

There you go bud!

Done and done, hence this (http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/distillery-374/762993-e85-testing-methods.html) post! Thanks, guys!