Nitrous specifics (tuning related)

[Sick_Mustang]

Maybe I will get some answers, maybe I won't seeing as this community seems so secretive compared to the "other guys".Maybe this will help future members.

I have received some vastly different opinions lately on what's safe.I understand every car is different and "give it what it wants". However the fact of the matter is there is a "ballpark" and some people flat out have way more dyno time tuning various set ups than your average guy, thus they posses the knowledge.


Ill keep it simple.


Fuel=e85

100 shot wet

- Commanded lambda
- Total timing
- Acceptable STFT


150 shot wet

- Commanded Lamda
- Total timing
- Acceptable STFT




Whats is the general consensus? Not naming names, not trying to call people out or bash people. I just want to further my knowledge of nitrous and this motor as a combination. With that said my car was commanding 25* on 150 shot, knock sensors are also adding 2* for a total of 27* if I recall correctly with a .82 commanded Lamda. Car runs great, on and off the bottle. Plugs look great also.


Now if the cylinder pressure was too high, would I not see detonation? Wouldn't piston slap be picked up by the what I consider overly sensitive knock sensors? Wouldn't it also show on the plugs? Maybe even popped a head gasket by now?


Discuss. Help educate my brain. Lol

 

[JUIC3D]

Lots of points to address but I'll give my personal experience.

1) Overly sensitive knock sensors? idk who your tuner is but they could have desensitized them and you would have no way of knowing

2) These cars like to have lots of fuel. I've logged lots of time on the dyno with different fueling and my personal car ran best with .83 lambda n/a and .78 lambda on nitrous. This was also confirmed at the track. Some people like to run them lean at .84 to .86 lambda but I found my car performed best with a little more fuel at .83. The dyno also confirmed only a few hp gain with leaning it out to .85 lambda so I kept it at .83.

3) Timing on E85: On the 150 shot, I ran peak timing of 23*. I pumped in a couple extra degrees but the car only picked up 5-7whp which wasn't worth the extra heat in the motor. 27* on a .062N is a LOT of timing. I would not feel comfortable at all with that tuneup if it was in my car.

4) Acceptable STFT: That is relative. I am a perfectionist and make sure my car runs with +/- 2% on the trims. .98-1.02 is acceptable to me and that's what I run. For comparison, the stock tune can fluctuate +/- 25% before it even throws a code for the trims. Take that for what it's worth. There's nothing wrong persay with larger variances in fuel trims but I just like the idea of the computer not having to correct for a bad maf curve.

YMMV

 

[mastwolf]

Your tune needs addressed. Talk to your tuner.

 

[Sick_Mustang]

Or a new tuner, locally, so I can't sit on a dyno.

 

[Shaun@AED]

Tune does not need to be addressed. I did it.
Nitrous does NOT like to run overly rich. Nor does E85.
Your nitrous *KIT* has major problems based on the data logs. Yesterday I asked you to call me so I could educate you over the phone on this.

 

[Sick_Mustang]

Tune does not need to be addressed. I did it.
Nitrous does NOT like to run overly rich. Nor does E85.
Your nitrous *KIT* has major problems based on the data logs. Yesterday I asked you to call me so I could educate you over the phone on this.

I could not call, as soon as I am out of work I take my daughter to dance on the days I do not work late. Regardless I usually get home late and am busy with family life, so spare time to be on the phone is hard to come by, especially with someone in California. Which is why this thread was made in the middle of the night.

I'm am not understanding this whole kit being flawed. This is Juic3d's exact old setup. Wired the exact same way hell some of it was wired already.I even had a longer nitrous line made, to mount things where I wanted and aide even more in the controversial "lean spike". I am also running a fuel jet size two steps down from what he was running.

 

[JUIC3D]

27* timing on a 150 shot is ok?? Holy crap

 

[Shaun@AED]

I could not call, as soon as I am out of work I take my daughter to dance on the days I do not work late. Regardless I usually get home late and am busy with family life, so spare time to be on the phone is hard to come by, especially with someone in California. Which is why this thread was made in the middle of the night.

I'm am not understanding this whole kit being flawed. This is Juic3d's exact old setup. Wired the exact same way hell some of it was wired already.I even had a longer nitrous line made, to mount things where I wanted and aide even more in the controversial "lean spike". I am also running a fuel jet size two steps down from what he was running.

Then why is fueling perfect till 6K RPM where it goes pig rich?

27* timing on a 150 shot is ok?? Holy crap

6 degrees removed from all motor (31 degrees peak) for the 150 shot + the knock sensors are allowed to add 2 degrees and remove 6. Sensitivity has not been adjusted from factory stock. I trust the knock sensors, they are VERY sensitive in these cars.

Running too rich you WILL induce knock on E85 applications. Too rich = incomplete burn which rattles the pistons.
.82 is the same lambse I command on Boosted E85 applications. Cars pushing 1200HP at the tires.

 

[Sick_Mustang]

Shaun, I am far from a tuner my man. I could not tell you why it goes rich. According to your email, you don't know either, which you stated was solely due to the fact you cannot actually look at my install etc etc. which I completely understand.


But let's face it. I have it wired caveman simple on a WOT switch. Everything soldered and neatly done. Never spraying below 3500.

.062N
.039 Fuel which is two steps down from what Justin was runnig in his car.


What more is there to it besides the tune? And bottle pressure, which I did have an issue with at first due to a bad bottle heater, but recent logs it has not been below 900 if I recall.

 

[JUIC3D]

6 degrees removed from all motor (31 degrees peak) for the 150 shot + the knock sensors are allowed to add 2 degrees and remove 6. Sensitivity has not been adjusted from factory stock. I trust the knock sensors, they are VERY sensitive in these cars.

Running too rich you WILL induce knock on E85 applications. Too rich = incomplete burn which rattles the pistons.
.82 is the same lambse I command on Boosted E85 applications. Cars pushing 1200HP at the tires.

So your nitrous tune just pulls 6* from the original n/a tune? Why add timing if the car doesn't need it though? Timing+big nitrous shots=windowed block. Just because the car will take it, doesn't mean it needs it.

Smm has my old plate kit but routed things a little bit differently than I did so I'm not sure if that's causing an issue. This is the same kit that put my car in the consistent 10.3s at the track.

 

[Sick_Mustang]

Here are some pictures during the install. Havnt taken any final pictures besides the last one, but you get the idea. No leaks, loose wiring, etc.

 

[Shaun@AED]

Shaun, I am far from a tuner my man. I could not tell you why it goes rich. According to your email, you don't know either, which you stated was solely due to the fact you cannot actually look at my install etc etc. which I completely understand.


But let's face it. I have it wired caveman simple on a WOT switch. Everything soldered and neatly done. Never spraying below 3500.

.062N
.039 Fuel which is two steps down from what Justin was runnig in his car.


What more is there to it besides the tune? And bottle pressure, which I did have an issue with at first due to a bad bottle heater, but recent logs it has not been below 900 if I recall.

Log the Nitrous tune on Motor and watch it does NOT go rich. IE, it's the nitrous kit, not the tune. (Unless the fuel solenoid is going open when not activated for some reason, which I have seen before)

So your nitrous tune just pulls 6* from the original n/a tune? Why add timing if the car doesn't need it though? Timing+big nitrous shots=windowed block. Just because the car will take it, doesn't mean it needs it.

Smm has my old plate kit but routed things a little bit differently than I did so I'm not sure if that's causing an issue. This is the same kit that put my car in the consistent 10.3s at the track.

With some dyno time power vs ignition timing could be verified. I opened the options menu in Smm's nitrous tune. He can remove 14 degrees and add 4 degrees if he wishes. It's very much in HIS hands on how he wants to run his nitrous setup. I gave him a 100 shot tune with 4 degrees removed, Torque management / TC disabled so the Throttle would not close when at WOT, Proper Fueling target for E85, and a few other misc things we do in these applications. He has full control over ignition timing.

As far as why the setup is going rich? Well, I've seen brand new kits have stuck open fuel solenoids. I've seen wiring issues cause the fuel solenoid to stay open, even without activation. We've seen used solenoids with distorted plungers as well. Who knows, but it needs to be addressed and it's not a tune issue as his nitrous tune has the SAME maf curve as his all-motor tunes. (IE it's not going rich due to the tune)

 

[Shaun@AED]

Here are some pictures during the install. Havnt taken any final pictures besides the last one, but you get the idea. No leaks, loose wiring, etc.

That's a nice clean install!

 

[Sick_Mustang]

Thread got a by off track I guess. Shaun, I will look into the few things you pointed out and see if I can find anything. The NA nitrous pull was spot on you are correct on that.

 

[Shaun@AED]

Thread got a by off track I guess. Shaun, I will look into the few things you pointed out and see if I can find anything. The NA nitrous pull was spot on you are correct on that.

It's likely a wiring issue then.
Unfortunately it's damn near impossible for me to properly diagnose via email / datalogs. All I can see is a rich condition up top that is not tune related. Likely nitrous solenoid shutting off if I had to guess.

 

[Eric@jpc]

just throwing this out there

we have seen issues with bad Nitrous as well, where its game on, on the hit and it falls off hard mid range and top end

just something else to check, maybe you have a friend with another bottle you can try

 

[JUIC3D]

When you say pig rich--how rich? It's normal to see a nitrous car go a little rich on a long pull due to bottle pressure dropping. I normally see .78 lambda on the front half and by the time I'm in 4th gear, it goes a little rich to about .76. Any way you can post a screenshot of the datalog to show how rich it's going?

 

[charba951]

just throwing this out there

we have seen issues with bad Nitrous as well, where its game on, on the hit and it falls off hard mid range and top end

just something else to check, maybe you have a friend with another bottle you can try

Hey Eric how much is it to fill a 10 lbs bottle? Feel free to pm me the info...

Carry on folks

 

[Sick_Mustang]

just throwing this out there

we have seen issues with bad Nitrous as well, where its game on, on the hit and it falls off hard mid range and top end

just something else to check, maybe you have a friend with another bottle you can try

Juic3d gave me a full bottle when I purchased the kit. I'm assuming he has been using the same place for awhile. Bottle now has been filled up again though, so we shall see if it yields diff results.


I plan on going over the install with a microscope and checking everything before I move forward.

Anyone see an issue with the nitrous plate line being zip tied to the fuel rail?

 

[Sick_Mustang]

When you say pig rich--how rich? It's normal to see a nitrous car go a little rich on a long pull due to bottle pressure dropping. I normally see .78 lambda on the front half and by the time I'm in 4th gear, it goes a little rich to about .76. Any way you can post a screenshot of the datalog to show how rich it's going?

I would send you the log but I am no where near my laptop. Maybe someone else can post it.

Btw log is a single 3rd gear pull.