Do you have an A/F curve for that earlier dyno run?
My Dyno :: Predator, 2.80, Exhaust, and Intake
- Thread starter nuxx
- Start date
Maybe I'm missing something but is the company saying they can't get past a DC causing a lean air-fuel? I'm not quite smart enough to understand the dynamics but I took my simple Afterburner eFPC and created a relatively safe air-fuel ratio across the rpm range and I use a DC. I find it hard to believe this problem can't be overcome.
Uh oh... I hope I didn't buy that other CAI for no reason... doh!
How lean? As bad as mine?
-Peter
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Wow man. Is this a bash Predator thread or what?
Peter- Had I known you were going to mod so quick, I probably wouldn't of even suggested the Densecharger (couldn't beat the price tho, right?). David's car is exactly the same as mine, except I had the K&N and he the Densecharger. When you have a car with a Densecharger and catback, the Performance tune was fine for both cars, independent of the CAI. The Predator can only adjust a little bit, on one point of a/f up or down on the WOT table.
Now, once David's car was loaded with the pulley tune provided by Diablo, it was still way lean. Leaner then yours Peter. My suggestion has always been to contact Diablo (who is no doubt SLAMMED right now) and ask about the Densecharger combo, or switch directly to a new straight-line type of CAI. When the car(s) were at Diablo, Johan even called up John Demolet to talk about the Densecharger. There (Diablo's) opinion is, for highly modded applications, its not the CAI to use. If you go just CAI and catback, it leans the mix out more -- more then any other CAI, so that jives with the reports people originally gave (you know, back 8-10 months ago).
And finally, you can get the Predator tune e-mailed to you and sent into your Predator from your home machine, all you need is a serial cable and power transformer (black wall brick). Johan might ask you to log a run in forht gear, or fax your dyno sheets. You upload your pullied program to them, they modify and send it back. My advice, get the new CAI, disconnect battery, drive around to let the tune re-learn and re-dyno. I'm sure the results will be better. Best of luck to you.
John
PS: Again, I owned a Densecharger and dumped it once I was going with a pully, I do not feel that the air can properly be measured and this is causing the lean condition. If you think about it, that's the only inlet for air into the car, if that sensor is not reading properly .... bad times man, bad times.
Peter- Had I known you were going to mod so quick, I probably wouldn't of even suggested the Densecharger (couldn't beat the price tho, right?). David's car is exactly the same as mine, except I had the K&N and he the Densecharger. When you have a car with a Densecharger and catback, the Performance tune was fine for both cars, independent of the CAI. The Predator can only adjust a little bit, on one point of a/f up or down on the WOT table.
Now, once David's car was loaded with the pulley tune provided by Diablo, it was still way lean. Leaner then yours Peter. My suggestion has always been to contact Diablo (who is no doubt SLAMMED right now) and ask about the Densecharger combo, or switch directly to a new straight-line type of CAI. When the car(s) were at Diablo, Johan even called up John Demolet to talk about the Densecharger. There (Diablo's) opinion is, for highly modded applications, its not the CAI to use. If you go just CAI and catback, it leans the mix out more -- more then any other CAI, so that jives with the reports people originally gave (you know, back 8-10 months ago).
And finally, you can get the Predator tune e-mailed to you and sent into your Predator from your home machine, all you need is a serial cable and power transformer (black wall brick). Johan might ask you to log a run in forht gear, or fax your dyno sheets. You upload your pullied program to them, they modify and send it back. My advice, get the new CAI, disconnect battery, drive around to let the tune re-learn and re-dyno. I'm sure the results will be better. Best of luck to you.
John
PS: Again, I owned a Densecharger and dumped it once I was going with a pully, I do not feel that the air can properly be measured and this is causing the lean condition. If you think about it, that's the only inlet for air into the car, if that sensor is not reading properly .... bad times man, bad times.
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RossGN - are you using the predator?
nuxx - I see what your saying. My buddy and I dynoed on the same day, same dyno, we both a the same exact pulley, we both had an xpipe/catback, and we both had the same exact chip burned for our identical mods. The only difference was he had a Denscharger and I had the UPR CAI.
His a/f was mostly 12.5 but touched 13.0 maybe once, where as mine was flat at 12.1 across the board. BUT. . . both of our a/f were pretty straight. Showing that we both had a great tune, his was just alittle on the lean side, probably was the denscharger but he also had an exhuast leak so that could have contributed to it.
But the reason I think the predator is to blame is because, like I mentioned before, both of our a/f curves were nice and steady, but his was just alittle bit leaner, but your a/f goes from very lean to very rich, showing that the tune is probably to blame and not the parts on the car. If you had a nice steady line that was alittle lean, than I can see the denscharger being the problem, but in this case, I say its the tune.
nuxx - I see what your saying. My buddy and I dynoed on the same day, same dyno, we both a the same exact pulley, we both had an xpipe/catback, and we both had the same exact chip burned for our identical mods. The only difference was he had a Denscharger and I had the UPR CAI.
His a/f was mostly 12.5 but touched 13.0 maybe once, where as mine was flat at 12.1 across the board. BUT. . . both of our a/f were pretty straight. Showing that we both had a great tune, his was just alittle on the lean side, probably was the denscharger but he also had an exhuast leak so that could have contributed to it.
But the reason I think the predator is to blame is because, like I mentioned before, both of our a/f curves were nice and steady, but his was just alittle bit leaner, but your a/f goes from very lean to very rich, showing that the tune is probably to blame and not the parts on the car. If you had a nice steady line that was alittle lean, than I can see the denscharger being the problem, but in this case, I say its the tune.
Peter
They have yet to email the data so I can post graphs, but my curve is radically steeper than yours. Starts off at around 15.5 at 2500 and then drops below 10 at 5000. A/F was taken at the tailpipe.
I don't think anyone is bashing Predator here....I'm pleased with it...but it sounds like custom tunes may be the only solution for some of us.
Yes, I'm running the predator with the pulley tune.
They have yet to email the data so I can post graphs, but my curve is radically steeper than yours. Starts off at around 15.5 at 2500 and then drops below 10 at 5000. A/F was taken at the tailpipe.
I don't think anyone is bashing Predator here....I'm pleased with it...but it sounds like custom tunes may be the only solution for some of us.
Yes, I'm running the predator with the pulley tune.
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Kevin-
I don't think the tune can compensate for what's going on in the Densecharger... some people have it up, some down, some at 12 o clock, some at 9 or 10:30. There is too many variables to take that into account.
If nothing else, this will be an interesting discovery once we know the cause.
John
Ross: I didn't mean your post, there was another post referring to the "almighty Predator" ... and yeah, your right, the two stock tunes may not be one size fits all, for sure. It's a friggin tuning tool. And yes, I was pissed after waiting like 3 months I bought my Densecharger, it seems like the week after I got it, people started dumping them.
I don't think the tune can compensate for what's going on in the Densecharger... some people have it up, some down, some at 12 o clock, some at 9 or 10:30. There is too many variables to take that into account.
If nothing else, this will be an interesting discovery once we know the cause.
John
Ross: I didn't mean your post, there was another post referring to the "almighty Predator" ... and yeah, your right, the two stock tunes may not be one size fits all, for sure. It's a friggin tuning tool. And yes, I was pissed after waiting like 3 months I bought my Densecharger, it seems like the week after I got it, people started dumping them.
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nuxx,
It is not your cai that is causing your lean conditions,I have never tested a Densecharger cai but i have tested 2 seperate UPR cai kits compared to a 9 inch filter and a 12 inch filter on the same day,same dyno and you could overlay all 3 of the air-fuel graphs they were that close between them.
It is not your cai that is causing your lean conditions,I have never tested a Densecharger cai but i have tested 2 seperate UPR cai kits compared to a 9 inch filter and a 12 inch filter on the same day,same dyno and you could overlay all 3 of the air-fuel graphs they were that close between them.
lethal - thats true, I am not an expert in any way. And I am pretty sure diablo has done more testing than I ever will. I am just trying to think of what it could be, to me, it looks like the tune is just way off.
The denscharger changes the airflow, and changes how the air is read by the mass air, so wouldn't that change the whole a/f line since the air is being changed through the whole rpm range? Not make the car lean down low, and then super rich up top?
The denscharger changes the airflow, and changes how the air is read by the mass air, so wouldn't that change the whole a/f line since the air is being changed through the whole rpm range? Not make the car lean down low, and then super rich up top?
And I'm saying that, Dave's car and mine are exactly the same, except for the Denscharger (his car) and K&N Aircharger (my car). My car has the pulley tune in its production form, this was loaded onto two other Cobras -- they all had straight through designs for their intake. Dave ended up with a custom tune for his pullied car... the CAI was the culprit. Dave and I did go back to the stock airbox to compare apples to apples when we first went to Diablo to test.
Hopefully, Peter will be able to get his CAI and comfirm if it is the problem.
John
Hopefully, Peter will be able to get his CAI and comfirm if it is the problem.
John
Yeah the new CAI will be here next week. It's just a 9" Anderson Ford CAI, straight through.
I'll try to toss it up on the dyno again to see what the A/F is.
If it's down below 13 in the lower RPMs and higher than 10 at higher RPM then we know the cause.
If it's still messed up... then it's probably the tune. Only time will tell. In the mean time, I'll be driving out of boost. Or just getting into boost at 5k plus :lmao:
Don't you find it strange that the car doesn't ping under load? wtf?
I just hope that the new CAI makes it all better, might be a headache to figure out what's wrong if this doesn't fix it.
Now to make everything clear before I dyno...
There isn't anything wrong with the Anderson Ford Motorsports CAI is there? hahah
-Peter
I'll try to toss it up on the dyno again to see what the A/F is.
If it's down below 13 in the lower RPMs and higher than 10 at higher RPM then we know the cause.
If it's still messed up... then it's probably the tune. Only time will tell. In the mean time, I'll be driving out of boost. Or just getting into boost at 5k plus :lmao:
Don't you find it strange that the car doesn't ping under load? wtf?
I just hope that the new CAI makes it all better, might be a headache to figure out what's wrong if this doesn't fix it.
Now to make everything clear before I dyno...
There isn't anything wrong with the Anderson Ford Motorsports CAI is there? hahah
-Peter
Mine is running stock plugs and mod in sig with the Pulley Tune.
Under high load (5th or 6th) in low RPMs (1k-2k) when I go WOT I get some tip in detonation, but goes away when RPMs go up. I imagine its a similar lean condition to the others down low with going rich up top.
I pulled 6% ? timing on it last night, which helped very marginally. Now it feels weaker on the top end. Im just gonna take it easy until I get a custom program downloaded in that sucker.
Under high load (5th or 6th) in low RPMs (1k-2k) when I go WOT I get some tip in detonation, but goes away when RPMs go up. I imagine its a similar lean condition to the others down low with going rich up top.
I pulled 6% ? timing on it last night, which helped very marginally. Now it feels weaker on the top end. Im just gonna take it easy until I get a custom program downloaded in that sucker.
Strange... I don't have detonation under load, just on coast every now and then. No idea...
We'll see...
Even if the Densecharger isn't causing the leaness, it's known to be the bastard of 03 CAIs, well for cars with more than just exhaust work. So I guess at the least I'll pick up a few ponies. Maybe... hopefully.
-Peter
EDIT :: Sorry, saw you had stock plugs, I guess maybe the TR6s are helping with my detonation problems.
We'll see...
Even if the Densecharger isn't causing the leaness, it's known to be the bastard of 03 CAIs, well for cars with more than just exhaust work. So I guess at the least I'll pick up a few ponies. Maybe... hopefully.
-Peter
EDIT :: Sorry, saw you had stock plugs, I guess maybe the TR6s are helping with my detonation problems.
thats true, you will just have to wait and see. Good luck nuxx, I hope its something simple.
BTW - if it turns out to be the predator tune, will diablo send you another tune for free or will you have to buy another tune?
BTW - if it turns out to be the predator tune, will diablo send you another tune for free or will you have to buy another tune?
CS 1
New Member
I had same problem on my Dyno pull. Mods in sig. My A/F looked like a slide. high 12's to almost 13 and then over 5k as low as high to mid 10's. I spoke to Diablo--Pat--and he said being that I only has an O/R X tht I needed to put on a cat back and that alone would bring me leaner up top by a full point. Just wondering what the deal is here... I mean I understand that Diablo most likely is not going to send a "mailbox" unit like the Predator out to the market and have it be too lean up top but man---mid 10's A/F?? The catback is going on tomorrow hopefully--we'll see what happens.
Thanks...
I'm not sure. Johan at Diablo and James at Running With the Devil have been extremely nice to me. I'm sure they will help me out. I'm getting to a point where I hate spending money on the car. Remember I've only had it just over a month. Sure is a lot of money to drop into a car so quick. I'm starting to feel the weight of all the mods, dyno time, car purchase, etc... in the bank. But more so in wasted time I should have been working, hahah.
And in the end, it's just money, you always make more. Unless you were part of petclothes.com or something.
-Peter
I have an offroad xpipe as well... from what I know about catless exhaust systems, they make the car run richer?!?!
I always thought cats leaned out a car... dunno... just what I have thought for years.
The UPR is also a "bad" design for the 03 Cobra. Looks like fenderwell kits hurt these cars, once modded with a pulley or more.
Where are the engineers... chime in anytime...
-Peter
I guess also now the question is raised, as to what Diablo should do to correct this.
Have them make custom tunes for everyone is crazy, and bad business.
They have a tune for a car that has an extremely lop-sided A/F like some of our cars have. So maybe they should release that as a "fix" tune. Not custom, but just correct the A/F problem for fenderwell CAI owners.
The way I see it, is that most people will not be as willing as I am to buy another new CAI, just cause it might fix their A/F. I think a lot of people will be upset having a $420 "chip" and still needing to pay for a tune on top of that.
I think a downloadable "fix" tune that just fixes A/F would be a great step on Diablo's part. But then again, I don't know what is involved with doing that, it might not be feasible. Looking at how the unit is made, from an EE stand point, and the quanities sold will be low, Diablo is not making a cent off this device. I'm not an engineer (well for software I am), but the EE guys at work that make some of our units took a look at my predator and said this is made more for fun than for profit. :shurgs:
-Peter
PS :: Also the main reason I bought the Predator was for stealth reasons. I didn't know how my dealer would react to mods (I do now, hehe), but had planned to make it as none obvious as possible. I had an EEC tuner on my 96, and knew that could change every aspect of a tune. I knew that the Predator would be nothing like that, but still want a safe tune, lol. Hopefully, once again, the new CAI will fix that. I had a Diablo chip in my 01, and thought the install with hacking up the interior, opening the pcm, and filing the contacts is pretty ghetto. The "plug and play" Predator sure looked nice to me.
Have them make custom tunes for everyone is crazy, and bad business.
They have a tune for a car that has an extremely lop-sided A/F like some of our cars have. So maybe they should release that as a "fix" tune. Not custom, but just correct the A/F problem for fenderwell CAI owners.
The way I see it, is that most people will not be as willing as I am to buy another new CAI, just cause it might fix their A/F. I think a lot of people will be upset having a $420 "chip" and still needing to pay for a tune on top of that.
I think a downloadable "fix" tune that just fixes A/F would be a great step on Diablo's part. But then again, I don't know what is involved with doing that, it might not be feasible. Looking at how the unit is made, from an EE stand point, and the quanities sold will be low, Diablo is not making a cent off this device. I'm not an engineer (well for software I am), but the EE guys at work that make some of our units took a look at my predator and said this is made more for fun than for profit. :shurgs:
-Peter
PS :: Also the main reason I bought the Predator was for stealth reasons. I didn't know how my dealer would react to mods (I do now, hehe), but had planned to make it as none obvious as possible. I had an EEC tuner on my 96, and knew that could change every aspect of a tune. I knew that the Predator would be nothing like that, but still want a safe tune, lol. Hopefully, once again, the new CAI will fix that. I had a Diablo chip in my 01, and thought the install with hacking up the interior, opening the pcm, and filing the contacts is pretty ghetto. The "plug and play" Predator sure looked nice to me.
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redfire - if putting on a catback will lean your car out, then what about the lean spots on your a/f right now? Will they be even leaner?
nuxx - actually, the UPR CAI is a good CAI. The filter it comes with is pretty small but for the most part its pretty trouble free. I have the UPR and my a/f is perfect. Correct me if I am wrong, but the strictly pro car that is the fastest 03 right now runs the UPR CAI.
nuxx - actually, the UPR CAI is a good CAI. The filter it comes with is pretty small but for the most part its pretty trouble free. I have the UPR and my a/f is perfect. Correct me if I am wrong, but the strictly pro car that is the fastest 03 right now runs the UPR CAI.
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