My Car Died on day 2 with 53 Miles on it

[13COBRA]

Getting out of hand.

EDIT: Tob beat me to it.

 

[Sonic605hp]

Sounds like you picked the right dealership. I know it sucks, I had a similar story when I bought my first Terminator with the notorious rear end vibration but the dealer came through just like yours has. Glad it worked out for you.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Op likely broke the factory flux capacitor when he did that crazy stunt on a brand new car. And poked his eye out. He's lucky to be alive. (sarcasm on steriods)

The guy has had some pretty epic cars, I think he knows more than a bit about them, and driving them.

If gt350 can't take a romp right off the production floor, it's not going to be a very capable car. You don't post the lap times the car does with a weak vehicle.

 

[SlowSVT]

Nothing is ignorant about questioning a certain break in procedure. If a guy bought a new truck and posted a video saying break in procedure 5 miles new and he takes the truck through a field doing jumps and just generally ripping ass im sure someone would mention it if his truck died the next day. Im not saying what he did is similar as far as driving through a field and flying over jumps but like i said if you whip the shit out of your car one day and it breaks the next day its usually you paying for the fun you had the day before.

Its simple when you beat on a cars things break. Being ignorant is not what im doing. Since when was exploring all possibilities ignorant? Ignoring the fact that he beat on his car the day before is actually ignorant. In this case i dont believe its what did it so it actually worked out in the op's favor bringing this issue out sooner than later.

But still, i wouldnt recomend beating the shit out of a brand new car ignoring all break in recomendations. I mean if you dont care about your cars feel free.

Me being an mechanical design engineer (military, telco, SATCOM, Aerospace as well as a few others) I agree with your assessment on break in procedures for longevity (for a race car a hard break-in may have merit).

I can tell you with almost 100% certainty a bolt backing out has nothing to do with how the car was broken in. If a bolt is going to "back-out" it's going to do it sooner rather than later regardless how the motor was run. My money is on improper torquing during assembly. Ford is very interested on what went wrong because simple failure like this can co$t them dearly which is why they want the tranny back to determine exactly what caused this. Most likely it's an isolated incident but if not and it's traced to negligence the assembly line manager or QC will be hauled into someone office and get yelled at. If it's an engineering oversight and it's big enough someone is going to get fired on the spot. I can't count how many times I've seen engineers marched out the door from making a mistake. In this profession the repercussions from "screwing-up" are brutal and immediate! :nonono:

 

[liter of cola]

Do you believe if the OP had followed the recommended break in procedure that the bolt would have never moved out and caused the problem?

i thought it may be possible if the car had more time to break in the bolt would have set, but since a couple engineers on here say it would have come out no matter what i guess its safe to say it woulda happened eventually regardless, but disregarding break in sure didnt help the situation im sure of that.

Theres sort of a grey area with this, but all im saying is follow your break in! Thats all, be patient.

Break in periods sure aint what they used to be but disregarding them is not a good idea.

The way you should look at a new car is that its not truely broken in till about 2-5k miles. Its like a freahly glued together model airplane, let the glue set before you start ripping on it. Obviously this is just a comparison.

 

[Snoopy49]

Was there any thread locking compound on the loose bolt you found? I know that Ford uses a lot of bolts that come with blue thread locking compound on the bolt threads, just not sure that Tremec does the same thing. It looks like the person that installed the bell housing failed to torque at least one of the bolts. Makes you wonder if there are any other loose bolts on the transmission. If I had been the guy that discovered the missing bolt, I would have checked the torque on the remaining bolts. Where there is one loose fastener, there are probably more.
To bad they had to pull the engine in order to find the real problem. But I can see why they came to the conclusion that it was a engine problem. What are the chances of a bolt coming loose in the bell housing causing the problem? You just won the bad luck lottery.

 

[krt22]

i thought it may be possible if the car had more time to break in the bolt would have set.

Unfortunately that isn't how bolts work, a bolt is set into place once it is properly torqued. When the head bottoms out on the mating surface and you continue to turn the wrench, the bolt physically stretches and puts the bolt into tension (in this case likely 8-10+ thousand pounds of force based on how large it looks). When a bolt is properly torqued, you are supplying the force needed to stretch the bolt (pre-load) and overcome all the frictional forces between the bolt and mating surfaces, these frictional forces are responsible for keeping the bolt in place.

So as you can see, its purely a mechanical process, no amount of soft break in or babying is going to turn that bolt to generate the required force to keep it in place. Most thread locking compounds are not thermally activated either, and if they were, they would be pre-baked prior to use.

As for the break in process in general, you are right, its much less stringent today compared to cars in the past. The main purpose is to let all all of the mechanical interfaces properly bed against each other, which was more critical in the past where acceptable tolerance stack ups were larger and surface profiles weren't as good. With all of the advancements in computer aided design/manufacturing/inspection and statistical process control, parts these days are far more repeatable, which in turn allows engineers to get away with tighter tolerances, which makes the break in process more straight forward.

:beer:

 

[Tob]

Well put Kyle.

 

[SlowSVT]

As for the break in process in general, you are right, its much less stringent today compared to cars in the past. The main purpose is to let all all of the mechanical interfaces properly bed against each other, which was more critical in the past where acceptable tolerance stack ups were larger and surface profiles weren't as good. With all of the advancements in computer aided design/manufacturing/inspection and statistical process control, parts these days are far more repeatable, which in turn allows engineers to get away with tighter tolerances, which makes the break in process more straight forward.

:beer:

Amen on this statement

In 1980 I rolled a Honda CX500 off the showroom floor where the motor almost overheated until about 5 miles from the dealer where the temp needle started to settle to a more agreeable position. I drained the oil when I got it home which looked like metallic paint from all the rough surface machining wearing smooth to one another. Had to change the oil several times before the metal flakes stopped appearing in the oil. On today's engines I strain to see any metal flakes at all on the first oil change. I think it's best to gently bed the mating surfaces and put the engine thru a lot of heat cycles to remove the manufacturing stresses before romping on it. Some people claim a hard break-in helps seat the rings better which may have some merit but there is a lot more going on inside the engine than just seating the rings with the majority of the seating likely took place during the initial test run at the factory. I've seen lots of freshly minted motors self-destruct on an engine dyno which is a very risky thing to do. Best to break it in driving around with it and "flog" it afterwards :mj:

 

[SonicDTR]

Great posts gentlemen. Liter, if nothing else, i'm glad you read what these two guys have posted and maybe gained a little more insight.

Maybe best for another thread, but would love to read some more up to date information regarding Engine break-in(not from Ford) information. Everything i've always read indicated two opposing camps. One being that an aggressive break in actually lead itself to a higher performing engine AND longer life(less oil consumption and blow by). Wonder how that holds true with modern production methods and engine/lubricant technology?

 

[krt22]

That is a hotly contested debate on just about every automotive forum, but I think there are far too many variables to draw any real definitive conclusions without a full on side by side test of 2 motors (actually would need quite a few to make it a statistically significant experiment).

My guess is the best answer lies somewhere between the two extremes (as do most things). I personally won't be driving my car like a granny, but I also wont be banging off the rev limiter for on my way home with the car. Ford says give it 100 miles before any WOT action, im guessing that includes significant safety margin, so after that point I won't hesitate to drive it as I do my other cars. Change the oil/driveline fluids at 1000 miles and call it "ready".

Regardless of which path you take, I think the most important part is allowing the motor to reach proper operating temp before any trips to redline

 

[SonicDTR]

Certainly many things to consider during a break in. One would be non break-in related failures(such as this thread) that if it occurred at the wrong time could be very dangerous. And then there is the actual material break in, like piston rings, that benefit from particular operating conditions. So I'd completely agree with you on a middle ground approach.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

I'd break in brand new vehicles like this, though every "new" vehicle I've always had was at least over 30 miles, bastards already had test driven em, just not bought them/signed a title.

Anyways.

-first turn over: stationary start up with break in oil, let the engine reach optimal temp while listening for any sound, shut off if any (obviously). A few easy general revs to 3, 4, 5, and 6 thousand rpms. Only elevating if no irregular sounds occur. Bring it back to idle, turn it off, change oil. I'd check the transmission oil as well. Likely to find metal shavings or foreign matter in this oil.

-on a natural oil, I'd again bring it to temp while idling. Go for a smooth, basically normal drive, but avoid lingering rpm. I'd stretch the gears to 4000rpms or so each, not quite wot, but over half throttle. Also depends here if boosted or na. Around the 50 mile mark, I'd change the oil once again. I'd check the diff oil, and trans oil as well as coolant and brake fluid. Belts, hoses, etc. factory guidelines/inspectionstolerance is great when techs do their installs correctly, not so useful when they don't though.

-at this point onward, anything from gaskets to seals, to springs has seen temp and load/stress to seat/set well. Hammer down. I keep an effort to vary rpm, and always treat a cold start to a nice warm up period (135-150* coolant temps now, no need to go full warm up). But in general, I drive a car harder from its 50-1000 mile mark than I usually well for the rest of its life (comparably in a 1,000 mile window). Lots of wot pulls, a healthy amount of smooth/quick launches, burn outs, a drift or 20, a top speed run, a quarter mile pass, etc.

I switch to the natural gas based pennzoil ultra synthetic (I want to try amsoil) at 1,000 miles, because it's more like 5,000 miles with that kind of driving haha. I check all fluids and hoses/belts again at 250, 500, 750, and 1000.

If a car is well known to internet maximization threads and hobbiests, I look to see if anyone is running a better fluid concauction for transmissions (scotty's blend for subbies is an example), so on.

So a bit normal at first, only gental with warm ups and lots of checking, good solid hard driving from 50 miles on.

What do you guys do?

 

[13COBRA]

I always heard the Texas Mile was a great place to break in a car.

 

[needspeed]

Happy Ending

This has been an interesting thread to start as the OP and followed as a member here. As usual, threads take a life of their own with all kinds of responses and that is life on message boards.

I did have 20 seconds of fun right off the truck and of course that is not the break-in. My other thread title can be misleading if you read it literally. Also never went over 7K in that video.

Following that smoke adventure, I drove the car as recommended until it broke at 53 miles, so for it's first 1/8 mile at most that is what I did.

Happy Ending
Got my car back yesterday, my dealer did an amazing job on my car and it is now perfect. I drove it over 100 miles exactly as per the manual and the car is perfect.

Both Ford and my dealer were fantastic in resolving this issue quickly in that the took this failure very seriously as a manufacturing defect and nothing to do with the driver/owner.

The mechanic was told not to touch the motor or the transmission or test anything as Ford wanted the parts back so they could do analysis on them.

In the end, we put the original motor back in as it is perfect and the transmission/bell housing were replaced with new.

This failure was latent from the factory. I actually think the bolt in question was only in the transmission by a few hand threads since it is long and torqued to spec.

That is why it came out so quickly and would have happened in the same time frame plus or minus some miles regardless of my 20 seconds of smoke.

Thank you all for your input regardless of on or off topic as we live in freaking America and I could not be more grateful for this car and the freedom I have to enjoy it in..........Steve

 

[gaspasr]

Glad you got taken care of! Enjoy that beast

 

[SlowSVT]

I'd break in brand new vehicles like this, though every "new" vehicle I've always had was at least over 30 miles, bastards already had test driven em, just not bought them/signed a title.

Anyways.

-first turn over: stationary start up with break in oil, let the engine reach optimal temp while listening for any sound, shut off if any (obviously). A few easy general revs to 3, 4, 5, and 6 thousand rpms. Only elevating if no irregular sounds occur. Bring it back to idle, turn it off, change oil. I'd check the transmission oil as well. Likely to find metal shavings or foreign matter in this oil.

-on a natural oil, I'd again bring it to temp while idling. Go for a smooth, basically normal drive, but avoid lingering rpm. I'd stretch the gears to 4000rpms or so each, not quite wot, but over half throttle. Also depends here if boosted or na. Around the 50 mile mark, I'd change the oil once again. I'd check the diff oil, and trans oil as well as coolant and brake fluid. Belts, hoses, etc. factory guidelines/inspectionstolerance is great when techs do their installs correctly, not so useful when they don't though.

-at this point onward, anything from gaskets to seals, to springs has seen temp and load/stress to seat/set well. Hammer down. I keep an effort to vary rpm, and always treat a cold start to a nice warm up period (135-150* coolant temps now, no need to go full warm up). But in general, I drive a car harder from its 50-1000 mile mark than I usually well for the rest of its life (comparably in a 1,000 mile window). Lots of wot pulls, a healthy amount of smooth/quick launches, burn outs, a drift or 20, a top speed run, a quarter mile pass, etc.

I switch to the natural gas based pennzoil ultra synthetic (I want to try amsoil) at 1,000 miles, because it's more like 5,000 miles with that kind of driving haha. I check all fluids and hoses/belts again at 250, 500, 750, and 1000.

If a car is well known to internet maximization threads and hobbiests, I look to see if anyone is running a better fluid concauction for transmissions (scotty's blend for subbies is an example), so on.

So a bit normal at first, only gental with warm ups and lots of checking, good solid hard driving from 50 miles on.

What do you guys do?

This method while carefully crafted is complex and from an engineering perspective makes a lot of assumption. Some of it makes sense but there are some aspects that might deserve closer scrutiny.

I would be careful revving a brand new engine. As you stated there is a probability of metal filings or foreign material suspended in the oil of a brand new engine. Revving to high rpm's will open the oil filter by-pass valve sending unfiltered oil thru the engine where debris can find it's way to the bearings. Changing the oil after 50 or so miles is not a bad idea I usually go to 100 but that's just me.

I prefer to break-in with a load on the engine so the pistons are not flopping around in the bore with little pressure build-up in the cylinder which to me is stop&go city driving and constant throttle changes...........pretty much what the factory wants you to do. Some engines come with break-in oil what ever that means so keep this in mind. Petroleum based oil and no synthetic as you stated is whats best to use.

Trying to determine what the best break-in method is hard to quantify. For me the factory recommended method which is pretty consistent across the industry seems like a prudent approach for longevity. The factory engineers know more about engines and are way smarter than me, anyone on this site and the aftermarket engine gurus. They resources they have behind them dwarfs what's available to everyone else on the planet so i am loathe to second guess them. They want to avoid warranty repairs and we want a longs lasting engine.

 

[blk02edge]

For engine break in I like to 100% ignore what anybody says and read the manufacture guidelines, which these days don't say much as seating rings takes almost no time at all

 

[liter of cola]

I agree with a lot of these methods listed above although tt335ci03 cobra in my opinion took it to the max. There is certainly merit to the hard brake in as i have heard a ferrari dealer recomend a hard break in to a buyer of a 458 speciale on youtube.... But then again just cuz we now have flat plane cranks in our mustangs doesnt mean we got ferrari engines. So i personally would stick to the factory recomended break in, these arnt ferrari's. Also an oil change at 100-500 miles is a good idea.

Congrats needspeed im glad you were helped and got the shelby back! Enjoy it man. I've personally had some irritating experiences with ford so im glad you weren't thrown for the loop, or should i say oval. Lol.

 

[liter of cola]

Thanks for making my point, mudpacker boy, LOL.

;-)