Maximum Motorsports Vs. Griggs

[postban]

also, the griggs pics, are those the top level ones? Any hint to what the other 3 levels are?

 

[Snake Eyes]

1. Subframe Connector, Lower, Flat:
The standards are just like MM's standard length. (I have these)

2. Subframe Connectors, Upper, & Bulkhead Stiffeners:
Are the through floor tubes you see in the pics

3. Complete Frame Kit:
#1 and #2 all at the same time (below floor and through floor connectors).

4. Frame Kit, World Challenge, Complete:
I don't even know. I imagine it is #3 with super high grade steal or some exotic alloy.

Here is a shot of the Complete Frame Kit. The lower 2 tubes are the lower subframe connectors (#1) while the rest would make up the upper subframe connectors (#2) and all combined make up the Complete Frame Kit (#3)

 

[Snake Eyes]

Wow now seeing those pictures I can tell you why your chassis still flexes. Those are not tying the subframes together properly. The rear attachment point is absolutely terrible!!! Think about it this way, round tubing is much easer to flex and bend than boxed tubing* and a butt joint is not sufficient to eliminate vertical flex because it does not have any length to tie the connector to the rear subframe you need a tube to run parallel to both subframes if you want minimize flex.

* Boxed tubing is strong when stress is applied to directions parallel to is walls but weaker at other angles and very weak when applied to twisting loads. Round tubing is uniformly strong in all directions and resists twisting better but boxed tubing will flex less when the load is applied to it in a single direction. But the bottom line is boxed tubing is a much better choice for subfame connectors because the loads are very predictable.

 

[jimwood]

If you equate faster lap times to better parts= Griggs (More 1st place finishes)

If you equate less expensive parts to better parts= MM

You either want faster lap times or cheaper parts. I don't think that the price difference between Griggs and MM justifies buying MM parts.

I also think Griggs prices are justified because they spend a lot of time and money in creating better parts for Mustangs (for everyone else to copy and sell cheaper). When MM steps up to the research and design plate, I will buy more than brake pads from them.

As an example, Griggs recently came out with the SLA system. MM has bushings.

Bottomline, I think that the price difference is not enough to go with MM.

 

[ShelbyGuy]

hah that griggs sla setup is pretty darn scary looking. thats a HUGE amount of spacers to get the bump steer out of it. no thanks.


its really a dumb argument since i could probably come up with 3 '65 coupes in about 2 hours that will run as quick a lap time as a full on griggs sn95, and thats with leaf springs and worm&sector steering.


a good driver in a stock car will outperform a squid in a full zoot modded car every time.

spend your money on track time, tires, and brake pads instead.

 

[Cobra-R]

If you equate faster lap times to better parts= Griggs (More 1st place finishes)

If you equate less expensive parts to better parts= MM

You either want faster lap times or cheaper parts. I don't think that the price difference between Griggs and MM justifies buying MM parts.

I also think Griggs prices are justified because they spend a lot of time and money in creating better parts for Mustangs (for everyone else to copy and sell cheaper). When MM steps up to the research and design plate, I will buy more than brake pads from them.

As an example, Griggs recently came out with the SLA system. MM has bushings.

Bottomline, I think that the price difference is not enough to go with MM.

So you admit you are speculating based only on results and not from driving and owning both setups?

Yep, Griggs came out with a SLA setup, but Bart works has had one for a few years for the Mustangs. MM just released a new IRS setup for the new Mustang, is Griggs doing anything with that?


Griggs does have good parts, I am not arguing that. You make it sound like they are very superior to MM, and that I will argue. Griggs stuff is fine for a race car that is typically light, but on heavier cars, it breaks. Sorry, but suspension pieces that break, and a company that doesn't change thier design after multiple failures, is not a hero in my book.

We will agree to disagree, no problem. Hope to see you at the track, I'll buy ya a beer.

Brian

 

[TroyV]

Well said.

 

[jimwood]

So you admit you are speculating based only on results and not from driving and owning both setups?

Yep, Griggs came out with a SLA setup, but Bart works has had one for a few years for the Mustangs. MM just released a new IRS setup for the new Mustang, is Griggs doing anything with that?


Griggs does have good parts, I am not arguing that. You make it sound like they are very superior to MM, and that I will argue. Griggs stuff is fine for a race car that is typically light, but on heavier cars, it breaks. Sorry, but suspension pieces that break, and a company that doesn't change thier design after multiple failures, is not a hero in my book.

We will agree to disagree, no problem. Hope to see you at the track, I'll buy ya a beer.

Brian

Brian, I'm not speculating about anything. Cars with Griggs suspensions wins more poles and races than any other manufacturer. So for me the proof is in the putting. As far as owning both supensions. No, have not owned a MM k-member and control arms. However, I don't believe that I need to own both to opine on which one is better if I have a basis for my opinion. Plus, owning both would do nothing more than give me "seat of the pants" experience or the ability to compare my own lap times against each other. I believe that is an ignorant way to judge a product because there are too many variables involved which lead to inaccurate results, e.g. poor driving,tires, etc. If thats your way to discredit me, I can live with that. But I will say I looked into both and rode in cars built by Griggs and MM. So my seat of the pants experience may satisfy your need to know if I have any experience with MM.

I do however take some issue with your statement about Griggs parts breaking. Your parts broke, therefore all parts sold by Griggs break? Your statement is way out of line and completely uniformed. Its good to share your experiences with parts, but blanket statements like Griggs parts break on heavier cars is uninformed. I assume the basis for your statement is your limited experience, and what you have heard from a handful of others. The problem is, is that you have no clue how many K-members and control arms have been sold or are used; therefore, its impossible to state what percentage have broken.

Statements like that just really prove my point about this board and suspension misinformation.

If you want to win an argument by making rediculous statements go for it. But its really unfair to influence people through fear of broken parts by making the statement that Griggs parts break on heavier cars. Whats a "heavy" Mustang anyways?


Edit: This argument reminds me of trying to convince people that the IRS in the Cobra is not better than a properly setup live axle. You can argue all day with facts, but at the end of the day people just believe what they want. Oh well. I'm done with this, and if your ever at a track in Cali let me know. I'm always up for free beer. :beer:

 

[Cobra-R]

Brian, I'm not speculating about anything. Cars with Griggs suspensions wins more poles and races than any other manufacturer. So for me the proof is in the putting. As far as owning both supensions. No, have not owned a MM k-member and control arms. However, I don't believe that I need to own both to opine on which one is better if I have a basis for my opinion. Plus, owning both would do nothing more than give me "seat of the pants" experience or the ability to compare my own lap times against each other. I believe that is an ignorant way to judge a product because there are too many variables involved which lead to inaccurate results, e.g. poor driving,tires, etc. If thats your way to discredit me, I can live with that. But I will say I looked into both and rode in cars built by Griggs and MM. So my seat of the pants experience may satisfy your need to know if I have any experience with MM.

So let me get this straight, from:

"looking at and riding in both cars built by Griggs and MM"

you can come to the conclusion that Griggs is

"Hands Down superior"

to MM?

Here is a comment you made in a earlier post:

This board has absolutely the worst suspension advice that I have seen. The way this board rates suspension is price because you get a much younger crowd here. However, if you want straight advice go to corner-carvers.com. Because this board is an embarassment for any legitimate suspension talk. Sorry.

Do you think CC'rs would accept your criteria for determining which suspension is better? Somehow I doubt it. Like I said before, I own both systems in simular cars (94 Cobra and 95 Cobra) and cannot come to the conclusion you did, they are both very good. Do you think it is possible that Griggs has had more success racing because they historically have fielded more cars than MM? MM is building numbers in AI, and they are winning as well. Both the AI and the AIX Champion cars in my region are MM sponsored. Bryan Shugg won out on the east coast, I believe the MM car just set the track record at Button willow.

I do however take some issue with your statement about Griggs parts breaking. Your parts broke, therefore all parts sold by Griggs break? Your statement is way out of line and completely uniformed. Its good to share your experiences with parts, but blanket statements like Griggs parts break on heavier cars is uninformed. I assume the basis for your statement is your limited experience, and what you have heard from a handful of others. The problem is, is that you have no clue how many K-members and control arms have been sold or are used; therefore, its impossible to state what percentage have broken.

Statements like that just really prove my point about this board and suspension misinformation.

If you want to win an argument by making rediculous statements go for it. But its really unfair to influence people through fear of broken parts by making the statement that Griggs parts break on heavier cars. Whats a "heavy" Mustang anyways?.

Your right, I do not know how many K-members ect have been sold, didn't think I had claimed to. I also didn't think I had stated a percentage that had broken, so I don't know where you are getting those comments from. All I can say that from my own direct experience and from some people close to me, the failure rate has been high. Maybe we are very unlucky and all the bad pieces were shipped to me and people that I know.


Fact:

I bought my full Griggs suspension direct from Griggs, I ordered a second setup (only the front, he already had TA/phb in the rear) for my dads 95 Cobra at the same time.
In a years time, my K-member cracked, both severe duty control arms cracked/broke, my panard bar mount broke, and one of the bumpsteer bolts broke. I had never been off track with that car during that time frame, so it wasn't damaged from that.

When I started having failures, my dad started looking over his car closer. His parts were cracking in the same place as mine were. Ted S broke his K-member, ironically very near where dads and mine were cracked. I would say that having two broken cars in the same family, plus friends with simular failures give decent credability to my statement. If you havn't followed it, there is a post about the failures in the Cobra R forum as well as a long thread on Corner carvers.

Cobra R forum post: http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61778&highlight=griggs

Corner carvers post: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12714&highlight=griggs There are more posts raising questions as to thier durability as well.

The three failures mentioned above that I have direct experience with, we all on fully dressed street legal cars weighing in the 3500+ lb range, running R compound tires. I realize many race cars are runing w/o failures, but race cars are running much lighter and usually on spec tires. Can I say with a 100% certainty that the weight of the car is the issue, of course not. I would say my statement holds every bit of credability as your method of deciding Griggs is better than MM statements.

Ironically, in the two years I have been running my 95R with the Mm setup, not one suspension part has broken. :shrug:

I will leave this alone now as well. People reading the thread can decide for themselves which system they want on thier car.

Brian

 

[Mr. Mysti]

Griggs offers a lifetime warranty. I think most people would rather have an item that does not break in the first place rather than one that suffers "breakage" and must be shipped back under warranty. Try shipping a K member accross the country.

Terms:
All welded steel components in this kit will be repaired or replaced by Griggs Racing Products for breakage. The part must be returned to Griggs Racing Products via the “Return Authorization—Warranty Claim” process. Griggs Racing will inspect the part, and make the final determination as to whether the part warrants replacement based on the following criteria:

www.griggsracing.com/LifetimeWarrantyClaim.pdf

www.griggsracing.com/WarrantyRegForm.pdf

imo - From what I have heard, MM is more reliable. But I am a newbie retard.

 

[johnbasf]

My dad can beat up your dad.......... :lol:

 

[johnbasf]

As far as wins go, BOTH sides can distort real life for advertising..

 

[red03cobra]

I decide to go with MM parts on the theory they were beefier and designed not to break as easily as Griggs. The extra weight is not good for racing but better for street use with occasional track duty. The MM design philosophy is to build stronger to avoid cracking and failures. Given the high cost of labor and hassle factor if suspension parts fail I think MM approach makes more sense to me.

 

[99COBRA2881]

Holy huge sig batman!!!!!!!

How much gas is in the tank right now??? Thats about all you left out..
How much air psi are you running in the tires? j/k :fart:

 

[13 Cobra Toy]

Let's debate Kenny Brown stuff J/K :lol:

 

[postban]

bump

 

[postban]

This needs to be a permanent sticky!

Read up NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[turbocake]

FWIW, I've installed and driven Griggs' and MM setups on two different fox bodies.

Of all posts in this thread, I agree most with "Cobra R".

It all comes down to where you will find value. Griggs' components do strive for ultimate performance AND weight savings, whereas MM products go for performance and longevity.

IMO, MM's stuff is just as good for the track, but also more reliable. I've been to both shops in person and spoken at length with the guys there and both businesses are great.

I personally prefer MM's products because I'm a helpless boulevard pimp but if I did go to the track, I would still run their stuff.

 

[sndmn_2000]

This needs to be a permanent sticky!

Read up NOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should be, cause its a good topic that needs to be looked at from both sides :thumbsup:

 

[seunglee]

so does anyone know what the center bore size is for my 01 mustang saleen?