Last step, front sway bar

[lsxjunkie]

Alrighty folks, I'm just about done with my daily driver suspension.

The car currently has:

Boss 302 (149lbs) front springs
Route 66 55D (167lbs) rear springs
Koni Yellows, currently set to 1 turn front and 1/2 turn rear.
Boss 302 25mm Rear Sway Bar
Boss 302 Staggered Wheels with 255 front and 285 rear OEM P-Zeros.

The only thing I want out of the car now is a better turn-in and front roll stiffness. So, time to pick a front sway bar. What say ye folks?

 

[djclark]

Bmr sb041 - http://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=1340

It will do what you need.

 

[tj@steeda]

Steeda is top notch & you can check out our reviews here -

This bar was really easy to install by myself in my driveway, it fit perfect and I did it in less then and hour. It feels really great in the corners and really keeps the car level! Awesome!!
2012 GT
I love this bar, talk about keeping the car level in the turns! Well engineered and finished part. It is a great compliment to the other Steeda suspension mods I have. What a way to improve a mustangs handling!!
- See more at: http://www.steeda.com/steeda-s197-mustang-adjustable-front-swaybar-555-1070/#sthash.RJCKWHVG.dpuf

[video=youtube;5lK8zOTmbvQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lK8zOTmbvQ&feature=youtu.be[/video]

http://www.steeda.com/steeda-s197-mustang-adjustable-front-swaybar-555-1070/

Best Regards,

TJ

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Bmr sb041 - http://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=1340

It will do what you need.

This is correct. I have one, it's a beast. It's a good route if you plan on going further down the road of handling mods because you wont likely max out stiffness with it like you will with every other front sway. If you're looking for general balance and aren't going to be getting too crazy it will work too, but so will Whiteline FYI

 

[blackbeast12]

Just a side note guys the bmr and the steeda bars are the hollow design, The whiteline bar is solid spring steel yes it weighs a little more but its alot stronger...

http://www.whiteline.com.au/vehicle_swaybars.php

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Just a side note guys the bmr and the steeda bars are the hollow design

True

The whiteline bar is solid spring steel yes it weighs a little more

True

but its alot stronger

Untrue

People who "run out of bar" on whiteline front sway move to BMR's 38mm hollow which is lighter and more bar at 62%-297% increase in sway bar rate - having 5-holes to be able to adjust to start lower. BMR specifically brought this bigger bar on by popular demand for this purpose.

And these cars take a lot of bar on the track with decent tires to counter both turn in and through apex oversteer.

 

[Jabooh1]

^ Well said.

 

[lsxjunkie]

Final question. Do I need end links? I worry about bending the stockers or blowing out the joints, but are aftermarket ones stronger and/or noisy?

 

[WHITELINE]

It's important to remember STRENGTH and STIFFNESS are 2 different characteristics. A hollow bar will need to be larger then solid to achieve the same stiffness pending on wall thickness. Generally most manufacturers use the same wall thickness as its economical to purchase standard tube sizes thus bar OD (Outside diameter) tends to need be much larger to achieve same stiffness on a straight bar. Strength, however, is the ability for a bar to distort and come back to original shape -- if you think of a sway bar as a spring, strength now becomes a more important variable. I'll just leave it at this.... has anyone ever seen a broken solid sway bar? You can google the alternative. We prefer Solid for strength and durability; particularly as we introduce manufacturing and design. See below.

It is also important to note during mass manufacturing procedures any surface imperfections on either will ultimately determine it's weakest point, this is particularly important as we start bending bars to fit onto vehicles. As you know the market tends to compare bars based on size which will not tell you what you're really looking for which is bar rate. On hollow bars the wall thicknesses are thinner as they are elongated on the outer bends (metal stretching), assuming both hollow and solid bar is bent exactly the same, the hollow bar will have less strength due to the wall thickness deviated at the bends then originally intended from comparing bar rates of straight bars which is normally what happens. Example: 20mm solid is equal to 23mm hollow based on 2mm wall thickness; however, as you introduce multiple bends that 2mm wall becomes say 1.8mm which then changes stiffness AND strength.

Hollow bars have several advantages, likewise solid as well. We've compromised with the pro/cons and have them documented here:
http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/Hollow vs Solid Swaybar.pdf

Whiteline bars are tuned to bring the S197 Mustang into neutral setting. If you are running out of front bar you may need to see about adjusting the rear bar to get grip. In terms of sway bars, bigger does not translate to better. Hope this was able to help!

PS. End links are NOT required; however, are recommended as the extra loads can cause failures to OEM end links that use metal wire. If you purchase an adjustable sway bar, it is recommended to have an adjustable end link to accommodate the change in length from multiple hole settings otherwise the sway bar's motion ratio will change as the bar is rotated. Pending on design there is only so much rotation acceptable before compromising space and operation. If you are doing advanced suspension tuning it is recommended to have adjustable end links to corner balance vehicle or tune for various track orientations.

 

[BMR Tech]

Good post WHITELINE. You definitely hit on some good points, no doubt about that.

Rest assured since we do offer hollow and solid bars for various applications, we are well aware of the pros and cons.

Many of the new GM and Ford OE bars are now hollow, as they are adding weight in areas that require weight savings in others. In many of those OE designs, they do as you said and use a common material thickness (.188" for example) - often times we go to a .219" thickness on those, when we see fit/needed.

Nonetheless, we have seen some failures on rare occasions with the hollow bars and 4,000+ cars, but it is very rare and that usually gets chalked up to a design flaw. Unfortunately, mistakes can happen as you are likely well aware.

In this particular case, we use .219" wall thickness on our SB041. Thus far it has proven to withstand some serious abuse.

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Fair point WL on strength vs stiffness - but I think it can be agreed upon he (and most people) are talking about stiffness/rate.

Let me preface by saying I think WL makes some of the best suspensions pieces out there and am happy they continue to develop products for our cars. I am currently running WL end links and have used WL pieces in the past.

Agreed that you have to either assume a manufacturer is using accepted bending practices for bending tube or assume they aren't. But in an apples to apples comparo (considering solid bar needs its own proper processes to be bent) lets assume they are - albeit more complicated for tube.

I think people focus on OD size because:
1) Most brands (including WL) don't publish bar rates/% increases in stiffness. So what should they use as a quantifiable determinant? Marketing?
2) A lot of front sways are tube, and despite your focus on wall thickness (which is important concerning bending), just ask anyone who designs roll cages (or your SolidWorks, CAD program of choice) - tube OD is orders of magnitude more important than wall thickness concerning strength and stiffness.

Also, how are we comparing a tube steel vs bar steel? Are we assuming for instance a DOM vs 1018 in all cases?
I think another reason people are focused on stiffness over strength is you don't really hear about broken sway bars from the brands discussed in this thread.

But, assuming the tube bends were done properly there's not a lot of to give up when compared to the 38mm monster bar according to some quick "on the back of a napkin style" calculations I did before picking up my 38mm. I know you have mentioned a 2mm wall, but based on some threads BMR mentioned their wall thickness its more like 5mm+ (edit: including above).
Which using 1026 DOM vs an alike alloy in solid:

The 38mm tube would be experiencing 62kpsi in stress on a 24" length of tube with 3800lbs of load in the middle
A 33mm solid bar would experiance 69kpsi in stress under the same conditions.

This is obviously with me assuming quite a few things, and WL's point still stands about the solid bar being more capable of keeping its properties across a bend.

Just my $.02

 

[WHITELINE]

Good info! Just want to make it clear I'm not attacking you. Just want to clarify the information because majority of consumers often make decisions based on size and stiffness when what they all really want is grip (thus correct bar rate) or faster cornering abilities. I only want to keep the topic clear since the topic of strength came into play with regards to hollow/solid.

The reference of 2mm was just example and to remain consistent with data in the report. A solid 33mm bar is no where near comparable to a 38mm bar 2mm let alone 5mm in terms of stiffness. Again we tune for neutral so if a user requires that much bar up front then there has to be a specific rationale/needed. I dont know enough about your specific strategy behind a bar that big to comment but I presume wider slicks up front and Premium Tier 1 shock/coils

 

[CobraRed_96_GT]

Of course, WL. Didn't get the impression you were attacking anyone. Not even my thread here. I bet the OP doesn't even need this much bar, was only in response to blackbeast's post.

Love having you post on the forums, WL. Hope I didn't discourage that in any way.

For my specific use, yes the car does and will see the track. Near full suspension + coilovers, track tires (albeit not slicks for my goals). But even on the street and the twisties, at the 1 or 2/5 setting on the bar and a lot of rubber on the ground with supporting suspension mods it behaves very neutral. My last mustang used a lot less bar up front but it was also 550lbs lighter and I was still dealing with turn-in/lift-off overtseer, excess rotation (which i understand is not necessarily a front end issue).

 

[WHITELINE]

Of course, WL. Didn't get the impression you were attacking anyone. Not even my thread here. I bet the OP doesn't even need this much bar, was only in response to blackbeast's post.

Love having you post on the forums, WL. Hope I didn't discourage that in any way.

For my specific use, yes the car does and will see the track. Near full suspension + coilovers, track tires (albeit not slicks for my goals). But even on the street and the twisties, at the 1 or 2/5 setting on the bar and a lot of rubber on the ground with supporting suspension mods it behaves very neutral. My last mustang used a lot less bar up front but it was also 550lbs lighter and I was still dealing with turn-in/lift-off overtseer, excess rotation (which i understand is not necessarily a front end issue).

Certainly not turned away from solid valid questions comments and opinions. In fact we thrive on that. Everyone has a different theory on how to setup a car and thats the beauty of it, everyone drives differently and has different areas they prefer working with to achieve same results.

PS Check PM