Kincaid's New "Standalone Killer Chiller EKC": $8,188.60 + 365 Days = INSANE

[Bad Company]

You're welcome

there is one thing I should have wrote also. In his video he is claiming to have gotten the intercooler fluid down to 20*F. The problem with that is he is telling you that to properly charge the system he wants you to have a suction line pressure of 33 psi if I read that correctly in your documentation. I only read the first 10 to15 pages.......so I may be misunderstanding something here.

Remember in my earlier post what I stated the refrigerant temperature of 134a is at 33 psi?

37*F

That means that the controlled temperature of the cold plate can't go below what?

37*F

How do you arrive at 20*F, when the surface you're passing the intercooler fluid over to cool it down with is at 37*F?

Also and remember I've been out of this industry for 25 years.......the standard back then was if you achieved a coil temperature of 37* F that usually meant the medium you were cooling was exiting the evaporator coil 10 degrees warmer in refrigeration applications. So this would mean the coolant of the system, if the size of the system could keep up with the BTU load would be 47*F. Now we again have to pass the coolant through the intercooler, which again cause us to experience another temperature differential. Usually with air as a medium the spread gets wider and it is usually a 20*F difference . Again this is if the system is capable of handling the BTU heat load. So your 47*F coolant would give us a 67*F IAT2 temperature..........but with shear volume of air to be cooled(CFM) and the temperature difference while under boost brings me to the thought of you'll need a few hundred thousand BTU/hr to achieve this result.

NOT 11,000 BTU/hr!!!!!!!!!!

He fudged his video in some manner to be able to show 20*F intercooler fluid in my opinion. Hell the working pressures he says to have a fully charged system alone tell me that much

Unfortunately he is in CA and your in CT. This alone makes it very hard to sue him. I found this out while talking with lawyers to sue Evolution. It gives the seller a great advantage by being in another state to screw you over and leave you little recourse, unless you're willing to spend more money than what you'll get back from them through a law suit.

 

[Catmonkey]

He fudged his video in some manner to be able to show 20*F intercooler fluid in my opinion. Hell the working pressures he says to have a fully charged system alone tell me that much.

Watching the video, I could not fathom how that would be possible, especially since you have coolant that has passed through the intercooler to get to the degas tank. If you're right about the 37* evaporator temp, I think the coolant temps the OP measured would appear to be all this system is capable of achieving. I found a chart that back up BC's assertion. Hmm.... just means that video was obviously doctored. You know some states allow recovery of double or treble damages in fraud cases.

I realize OP shipped back two compressors, but the weight of this system is not what I'd consider an advantage based on the weights I saw on the shipping tags in the documentation.

 

[Bad Company]

John

I skimmed over your document a little more and there is a definite problem in the engineering of this system.

I'm going to give you a quick summary in layman terms of how all refrigeration systems work......hopefully I'll be quick LOL

Fist remember this......... any liquid used as a refrigerant has a boiling temperature when released to atmosphere. And that there are many different liquid refrigerants available on the market. Now to give you an idea of what I mean by boiling temperature so you can wrap your brain around that term I'll give you an example that I'm sure you and everybody else will understand

Rubbing alcohol.

You pour it on to your skin as a liquid. It evaporates to a gas to atmosphere. What does it feel like on your skin as it evaporates?

Cooler.......yes. You've used the rubbing alcohol as a refrigerant to cool the surface of your skin. It's boiling point....... is the temperature of the alcohol as it transformed from a liquid state to a gaseous state. This is the cooler temperature difference you felt on your skin. As it transforms from a liquid to a gas this is called boiling point in refrigerant terminology. The temperature at which it does this is known as the boiling temperature at atmospheric pressure. R-12 has a boiling point of roughly -256*F.......R-22 in your house is around -252*F. Nitrogen is -346*F....don't quote me on this exactly as I'm going off of memory.

All refrigerants are a gas that have different boiling temperatures, dependent on the properties of the chemical make up of the gas used to make the refrigerant.

Ammonia can be used as a refrigerant........oxygen, nitrogen, many years ago there was a refrigerant know as R-11. It was used by the industry as a washing fluid to clean out contaminated systems due to a burn out compressor motors that spewed burnt oil and motor windings throughout the system. It was used because it's boiling point was roughly 80*F if I remember correctly. So it stayed as a liquid as you pushed it through the system to wash the complete system. You would allow it to come out to vent to atmosphere at the suction line connection point of the compressor as a liquid pushing the contaminates out of the system. This was the first of the fluorocarbon refrigerants to be banned by the EPA because of this practice. But it could still be used as a refrigerant and we did use it in a passive solar system used to heat water to heat a home with.

Now lets get to how the system works

We has a gas that runs throughout the complete system, yet we use that gas as a medium to transfer heat. How?

The refrigerant leaves the compressor in a hot gaseous state. It arrives at the condenser to be cooled. As it is cooled it transforms into a cool liquid state and is maintained in this form by high pressure. It than moves to the evaporator as a cooled liquid. (remember the alcohol). At the evaporator we must control the rate of expansion. In your case we have a orifice tube. The orifice tube's job is to meter the flow of the liquid into the evaporator at a controlled rate for the size of the compressor BTU output. While the cooled liquid passes through the orifice it is expanded to a controlled pressure, dependent on the work being performed by the refrigerant and the temperature you want to maintain in the evaporator coil. Again remember the alcohol. This is why this coil is called an evaporator. Yet we don't allow the liquid refrigerant to completely transform into a gaseous state as the rubbing alcohol did when you poured it on your skin........we want to use pressure to control the evaporator coil temperature. So it is in what is called a saturated mist state under pressure. Gas and liquid droplets combined. This saturated mist flows through the evaporator absorbing heat from whatever it is cooling. Yet we still use pressure to maintain a specific evaporator coil temperature to perform the job of absorbing this heat. The saturated mist leaves the evaporator to be compressed into a hot gas by the compressor. The cold mist refrigerant is also used by the compressor's electrical motor as a way to cool the windings of the motor and the compressor itself. And the cycle begins again and again as it is a closed loop system.

Now a picture in your document caught my eye on page 31. The picture is of the refrigerant gauges you are using. Do you realize that the gauges not only have a pressure scale, but that they also have a corresponding temperature scale for the pressure? Every known refrigerant used by man has a given temperature for the pressure of the refrigerant being used. Each refrigerant has different properties, so they work at different temperatures for the same pressure. Remember my list of different refrigerants earlier? Your gauge set is not only reading pressures, but at the same time it is giving you the corresponding temperature of the refrigerant at that pressure.

In the picture the low pressure gauge is reading 37 psi with a temperature of 42*F, while the high pressure is reading 130 psi with a 102*F temperature. This is a known temperature for 134a at these pressures and it is why those temperatures are on the scale.........this isn't a guessing game. This is a known property for 134a. Because of this we can use pressure to change how the refrigerant works for us. In commercial refrigeration systems 90% of the time you use pressure switches to control actual temperatures of a cooler. You don't use thermostats as you do in your house to control temperature........you monitor the low pressure with a switch that uses evaporator pressures to control the temperature of the product being cooled. Because you know the properties of that refrigerant and at what pressure equals what temperature.

Now what I see in that picture is an unbalance between the high and the low pressures for the work you want to perform. The low pressure is too high, while the high pressure is too low. Which is telling me that the evaporator coil and it's properly sized(hopefully) orifice tube is not sized correctly to the compressor. The compressor is too small for the work load of the evaporator coil. The orifice tube isn't restricting the flow of liquid enough and it is allowing too much liquid into the evaporator........this causes the high pressure reading on suction port of the compressor. It is also what is causing the low pressure reading on the high pressure port, because the liquid is not being controlled by metering it at a slow enough rate versus the compressor output by volume.

The evaporator is too big for the compressor.........which from my skimming of the document you finally came to a similar deduction with Kincaid and he tried to send you a larger compressor.

It looks like Kincaid never changed the evaporator coil size to the smaller output of the little electric compressor he is using versus the car's A/C compressor with its much larger BTU output.

There was no engineering in this, it was lets throw this on the wall and see if it sticks.

I also noticed in my skimming that you overcharged the system. Again this doesn't add cooling capacity that is determined by the compressor size. But it does cause overheating of the compressor and eventual failure. From what I can see Kincaid is trying to overcharge the system to get pressures up to working pressure on the liquid side, but because the orifice tube is too big for output of the compressor it is causing a complete system failure in the fact the low pressure isn't at the target pressure to perform the best work to

 

[ZOMBEAST]

You're welcome



Remember in my earlier post what I stated the refrigerant temperature of 134a is at 33 psi?

37*F

That means that the controlled temperature of the cold plate can't go below what?

37*F

How do you arrive at 20*F, when the surface you're passing the intercooler fluid over to cool it down with is at 37*F?

It is actually possible to achieve a lower temperature, but that could only happen if the refrigerant is flashing or changing from a liquid to a gas. The change of state will actually remove more heat. Not saying this is occurring in this case though.

 

[GNBRETT]

im not sure what u think ur gonna get back from all this? ur not gonna get any money back for labor.

sometimes u need to cut ur loses early on to stop the bleeding. bro, after about 10-12 hours of labor on that u shud have pulled the plug on this project.
when labor is now costing you 50% of what u originally paid and eventually 150% for a new product then ur spending money foolishly! Ive seen complete SFI 25.5 chromoly cages built for that price.

at some point common sense has to take over but you like many others feel they "NEED" to have this done so they continue to thro money at it with labor until some day it finally works. 80 hours? really? Cmon bro thats just plain "CRAZY" no offense!

bottom line is u were the ginny-pig for this dudes attempt at a new project that failed miserably. he will simply say the installer wired it incorrectly causing it to fail.

that is a total loser in small claims court and it appears by ur thread posted that you have spent way too much time, money and aggravation for a "New" item that "Might" work!

 

[Bad Company]

It is actually possible to achieve a lower temperature, but that could only happen if the refrigerant is flashing or changing from a liquid to a gas. The change of state will actually remove more heat. Not saying this is occurring in this case though.

I actually think it is flashing in an uncontrolled manner in this case, due to the lack of refrigerant volume of the compressors pumping ability versus the evaporator coil size and too large of an orifice tube.

 

[ZOMBEAST]

Looks like he was using a TXV valve which is an adjusting orifice device. Very tricky to properly charge a well designed system with this type of valve. Sometimes you have to weigh in the charge. I think your absolutely correct about the lack of saturated refrigerant volume in the cooling plate. Like you've stated, this was not engineered correctly or tested under the extreme loads you calculated.

 

[Tob]

im not sure what u think ur gonna get back from all this? ur not gonna get any money back for labor.

sometimes u need to cut ur loses early on to stop the bleeding. bro, after about 10-12 hours of labor on that u shud have pulled the plug on this project.
when labor is now costing you 50% of what u originally paid and eventually 150% for a new product then ur spending money foolishly! Ive seen complete SFI 25.5 chromoly cages built for that price.

at some point common sense has to take over but you like many others feel they "NEED" to have this done so they continue to thro money at it with labor until some day it finally works. 80 hours? really? Cmon bro thats just plain "CRAZY" no offense!

bottom line is u were the ginny-pig for this dudes attempt at a new project that failed miserably. he will simply say the installer wired it incorrectly causing it to fail.

that is a total loser in small claims court and it appears by ur thread posted that you have spent way too much time, money and aggravation for a "New" item that "Might" work!

Which firm are you with?

 

[GNBRETT]

the common sense firm.

Which firm are you with?

 

[J.Kincaid]

First off let me just say that we're not trying to scam anyone. We came up with an idea to use a 12V compressor and when we were able to acheive good results on a 2007 shelby I reached out to 4 people to see if they would be interested in purchasing a kit at or below cost for some feedback. Obviously we're a small company and cant afford to buy all the different vehicles and combos necessary for complete and thorough testing. To make a long story short the company we were dealing with for the compressors were not on the up and up, and were selling us compressors that were unreliable. Also when John got the first compressor they charged it with standard ES12a which is not supposed be charged under a vacuum. They were supposed to have used Industrail 12A which can be charged under a vacuum. So I said I would eat the $700.00 compressor and send them another one. unfortunately they couldn't get me another one in a reasanable time frame so I opted to get a 10,000 BTU compressor from another company. Unfortunately this company had scamed us and lied when they said it was a 10,000 BTU compressor and sent us a 7,200 BTU compressor. Not knowing till after the fact. Anyway we were trying to get the company to refund us but they are just giving us the run arround. unfortunatley we have 2 systems that we now are going to have to refund because of this issue. I was supprised because I had talk to John and gave him half his money back and had thought he was ok with the other half at the later date. I was hoping to get our money back on these compressors to help with the refund, but that's not gonna happen.


We had planned on getting John the other half of his money on the 15th when we get our large middle east orders. Also some in here are saying that the video is some kind of scam. I can assure you that is not the case. In fact John Urist of Hellion personaly witnessed this kit in action and can atest to it. Bottom line we wanted to offer a 12V compressor driven system, but the 12V offerings are not reliable, and these Chinese manufactures lie about their ratings and capabilities. We have since learned that you have to use the 120V ac compressors with an inverter.

I feel bad about this whole thing and will keep my pledge to John and get his refund back to him as agreed. I had talked to him on the phone about this and will keep my word. In the 16 years of doing this I have never skipped out on a refund or a replacement unlike a lot of companies you see out there.

Joe

 

[Tob]

I feel bad about this whole thing and will keep my pledge to John and get his refund back to him as agreed. I had talked to him on the phone about this and will keep my word. In the 16 years of doing this I have never skipped out on a refund or a replacement unlike a lot of companies you see out there.

Joe

Now that sounds reasonable if that was indeed the agreement.

 

[JBN]

From what I'm gathering from this, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like Kincaid set the terms of the "refund", not OP. A "take it or leave it" almost, if you will.

 

[SVT-BansheeMan]

My truck was the test mule for the drag kit(for the L's). We had some set backs and excuses. With being the guinea pig, i expected things to go wrong and there was bad luck on Kincaid's side. Some thieves stole some copper from his shop or something like that. It wasnt his fault.

I had the shop agreed(before i even agreed to do it) on cutting me some slack on labor and how long i could keep my truck there. If it would of taken too long, i would had the shop stop and end the project. In the end it worked out well in a timely manner. I was able to datalog some passes at the track. Truck never pulled timing down the track.

There were and still are negative things about the kit but the original system was made for a very lightly modded L which mine is far from. I cant honestly complain about the kit or my experience. He even warrantied the core of the kit i bought from someone and upgraded it for me. I heard about the stand alone kit. With knowing how well my drag kit works and it's cons of the system(crap a/c and engine running hot with stock clutch fans), there is no way id trust a stand alone unit to work near as good as my current. The kits that run off the engine's a/c compressor work fantastic for cooling the IC fluid. That's just my opinion. I hope everything works out for the people involved.

 

[Klay]

First off let me just say that we're not trying to scam anyone. We came up with an idea to use a 12V compressor and when we were able to acheive good results on a 2007 shelby I reached out to 4 people to see if they would be interested in purchasing a kit at or below cost for some feedback. Obviously we're a small company and cant afford to buy all the different vehicles and combos necessary for complete and thorough testing. To make a long story short the company we were dealing with for the compressors were not on the up and up, and were selling us compressors that were unreliable. Also when John got the first compressor they charged it with standard ES12a which is not supposed be charged under a vacuum. They were supposed to have used Industrail 12A which can be charged under a vacuum. So I said I would eat the $700.00 compressor and send them another one. unfortunately they couldn't get me another one in a reasanable time frame so I opted to get a 10,000 BTU compressor from another company. Unfortunately this company had scamed us and lied when they said it was a 10,000 BTU compressor and sent us a 7,200 BTU compressor. Not knowing till after the fact. Anyway we were trying to get the company to refund us but they are just giving us the run arround. unfortunatley we have 2 systems that we now are going to have to refund because of this issue. I was supprised because I had talk to John and gave him half his money back and had thought he was ok with the other half at the later date. I was hoping to get our money back on these compressors to help with the refund, but that's not gonna happen.


We had planned on getting John the other half of his money on the 15th when we get our large middle east orders. Also some in here are saying that the video is some kind of scam. I can assure you that is not the case. In fact John Urist of Hellion personaly witnessed this kit in action and can atest to it. Bottom line we wanted to offer a 12V compressor driven system, but the 12V offerings are not reliable, and these Chinese manufactures lie about their ratings and capabilities. We have since learned that you have to use the 120V ac compressors with an inverter.

I feel bad about this whole thing and will keep my pledge to John and get his refund back to him as agreed. I had talked to him on the phone about this and will keep my word. In the 16 years of doing this I have never skipped out on a refund or a replacement unlike a lot of companies you see out there.

Joe

Sorry but your reasoning is not adding up. You already have the product back. There shouldn't even be talk of splitting up his refund. You certainly didn't allow him to split the purchase of the product. From what I have read, you owe him A LOT more than 1000 given what you have put him through. Whether you were scammed or not, you need to find a way to give him his FULL refund. Your issues shouldn't be his problem.

 

[Biff-Mach1]

Ive seen the KC in person and installed one on a friends cobra and about to install it on my 03 cobra. its a great product. wouldn't go any other route. theres nothing out there that comes close. there are some draw backs but what product doesn't. at the end it works. get over it. Joe is a great guy to deal with, the guy that purchased this EKC you should know better when trying a new product to the market. nothing is 100% in its first release. ya you should get the full product refund but NOT the labor. obviously the shop is ripping you off. like bansheeman said you should have got a deal with the shop for installing a new product that hasn't been out long. they obviously saw this as a chance to take advantage of you and you fell for it. im 100% sure Joe will give you the full $2000 back for the product. the labor is on you and the shop.

the others that talked about the KC not working. you should know what your doing when installing it. if you cant then take it to a shop that knows what there doing.

 

[Weather Man]

Joe is a great guy to deal with, the guy that purchased this EKC you should know better when trying a new product to the market. nothing is 100% in its first release. ya you should get the full product refund but NOT the labor. obviously the shop is ripping you off. like bansheeman said you should have got a deal with the shop for installing a new product that hasn't been out long. they obviously saw this as a chance to take advantage of you and you fell for it. i'm 100% sure Joe will give you the full $2000 back for the product. the labor is on you and the shop.

the others that talked about the KC not working. you should know what your doing when installing it. if you cant then take it to a shop that knows what there're doing.

In what universe do you live in that a shop would eat the labor on installing a product you didn't even buy from them?

The only person perpetrating a ripoff was Joe of KC.

 

[Joewee500]

I had my car shipped to Pro Edge to have a mild build and never once felt like I was being ripped off. I'm 1000 mikes away. I was kept in the loop every step of the way and asked every time a decision needed to be made. I'm sure they told the guy the clock was running while the install was being sorted out.

 

[Biff-Mach1]

In what universe do you live in that a shop would eat the labor on installing a product you didn't even buy from them?

The only person perpetrating a ripoff was Joe of KC.

the labor is on him, if he wants to go after the shop for labor then that's on him. Joe should just refund the EKC and that's it.

 

[lmurtha1]

I'm not sure why there was not a price confirmation for both system and install agreed upon before hand? Even if the shop isn't exactly sure labor hours etc, they should know and agree upon a set amount AND delivery timeframe. Why was there no work order or timeframe agreed upon in the first place?

If the shop did not provide that to you, even if you are a test mule (btw they love test mules bc most of them that agree to it get trapped), then either the shop is shady or the OP was just was clueless.

This can all be prevented with agreed upon terms before even starting. Then it's clear cut who F'ed who.

Seems like common practice in the performance car biz and they seek unsuspecting and naive victims like you all the time- it's not new and never was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Biff-Mach1]

I'm not sure why there was not a price confirmation for both system and install agreed upon before hand? Even if the shop isn't exactly sure labor hours etc, they should know and agree upon a set amount AND delivery timeframe. Why was there no work order or timeframe agreed upon in the first place?

If the shop did not provide that to you, even if you are a test mule (btw they love test mules bc most of them that agree to it get trapped), then either the shop is shady or the OP was just was clueless.

This can all be prevented with agreed upon terms before even starting. Then it's clear cut who F'ed who.

Seems like common practice in the performance car biz and they seek unsuspecting and naive victims like you all the time- it's not new and never was.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

couldn't agree more. performance shops now a days are like car sales men. they saw dollar signs when they saw this guy and he fell for it.