Is the 03-04 Cobra the Beast it was 7-10+ Years Ago?

[lowflyn]

Took mine to a mustang event at 1/8th mile track a few hours away last weekend.

Was told I made the fastest pass of the day and had people looking and asking questions all day long.

I don't think they are seen quite the same but the blower whine still garners attention anywhere I go.


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[Corbic]

It’s a nice car, but it’s been superseded with modern day coyotes.

+65,000

I now drive a 2016 slightly modded Coyote, and it is super fun and super fast. But...the feeling of driving my '04 SY Cobra was just different. It was very raw. The Coyote is refined and is a modern day muscle machine, but the Terminator was raw and you felt like a part of the car.

Lmfao better MPG. Who the **** buys a Mustang and uses that in the same sentence?

This day I’m age no. However there still fun to drive and draw a lot of attention. Aftermarket blower and you can keep up on the street. But there is so much out there now. Good time to be a horsepower junkie.

Well you're a bowl of happiness this morning. You can make that comment about anything old. Every car that was state of the art in it's day is now a "tired old chassis". What we are talking about is the lack of filter the 03-04 Cobra's and the 07-09 GT500's had. Big motor in a regular chassis that lacked any technology of significance.

I think the "visceral" experience people feel in those cars is the lack of Variable cam/valve timing. The power was very set in it's band. In coyotes you mash the pedal, timing retards and advances over the RPM band. It gets rid of the "digging itself out of a hole" feeling that makes the older cars fun.

5-700hp in a chassis based off of a 1979 Ford Fairmont will certainly feel “raw”. Worse ergonomics on the face of the planet though. I’ve owned 2 over the years and each time it took me a month to get comfortable.

Classic Ferrari's and Porsche's are lauded for their awful ergonomics.

The ergonomic compromises are often part of engineering decisions or restrictions and are celebrated as part of the cars character and charm.

An Air-Cooled 911 for example - has almost the exact same ergonomics as a SN95.

Knees jammed in the dash and steering wheel, but you can't reach the shifter and can't see the gauges. Shifts (915 Transmission) are the same vague long awkward throws that a T5/45 and T-56 have. Clutch is heavy and cable operated. Vehicle balance is different and requires skill and experience to drive to full potential. Limited Head Room, Worthless rear seats, but plenty of cargo space. Good forward visibility and able to see the hood and length of the car. Amazing engine sound and response. Very Torque biased.

The big difference between the too is the weight and feel of the steering. Mustang being mushy and over boosted. The 911 was using 30 year old torsion suspension up until 1989 before going to coil/spring with the 964.

The Cobra represents the last of the small Mustangs. It is the last Mustang free of all the Nanny Gadgets that have come to dominate modern cars. 15-billion airbags, LCDs, Voice-Sync, Navigation, USB Connectors, Heated-Cooled Seats, Stability Control, Electronic Steering, Launch Control, Collision Warning, drive by wire, back up cameras... on and on.

Yes, it is a chassis that dates back to 1979, but that is what makes it great. It's simple, robust and is all about the driving experience.

The Terminator is the American Supra. During the 90's the US had nothing that could touch the onslaught of modern imports in terms of "out of the box" build potential. Most imports had amazing blocks that could take +1000whp, forged factory cranks, forged rods with the cast pistons being the only limiter. Meanwhile you got to pick between a SBF that would crack in half at 400hp or a Mod-Motor with chicken bone powdered rods. (Or explaining to your parents you are coming out and bought a Chevy).

The Terminator finally gave us an engine like the 2JZ, VG30DETT, RB26DETT, 4G63, or 6G72. Just apply fuel and boost and go fast. No need to immediately rip your engine, buy a aftermarket block and rotating assembly, and then apply money and still go slow.

I'd argue the Cobra is still one of the street kings. As others have said, every person you talk to knows the car and respects it, including the Import, Euro and Chevy boys. Walk on over to 1320 and you'll still see Cobra's making regular appearances giving people hurt feelings.

We can argue "Stock for Stock" all we want, but these cars are 15 years old and we are talking "real world" here. There is nothing a Coyote Car can do that a Cobra can not do just as well. If it was not for the prevalence of the GT and V6 cars, I suspect the Cobra would be priced out like a MKIV Supra.

The secret to still making all these modern cars cry - Turbos.

 

[SVTCobra60]

This same question can be asked of any 60's era muscle car on up.

The fox was once considered "Fast". That died off in the early 2000's with the advent of the 4v, then the terminator, and then even 3v cars. So people swapped them, junked them, ruined them. Then people turned around, wished for days gone by, and now pay out the nose for a foxbody.

Terminators had their moment where they were cheap. I remember seeing a lot of them get gutted into street/strip cars and shaking my head. You could get an IRS, seats, interior bits, tanks.. all of that relatively easily. It's only going to get more difficult to find these cars as part outs continue to happen, people drive them, and people wreck them.

As far as competitive... a terminator is a triple crown horse still competing 10 years after it's heyday. The performance is there, but it's tired. It's relevant, but no longer king. Everyone knows it's place, but everyone knows it's been surpassed.

Terminators earned their place in automotive folklore, but they aren't the speed demons they once were.

Very well said and great points. I agree.

A lot depends where you live. It really revamped the HP wars again. It will have a spot in car history forever. The problem is it has many downfalls that were improved on over the years.

In the grand scheme of things even a highly modded E85 Terminator with a Twin Screw is not that fast these days when you can find 10+ 1000rwhp cars in almost any small town USA. Most of the highend model sports cars coming off the line are starting where the terminator maxes out at and they are just beginning modding.

I'm not sure if I'd say ANY small town in the US, but the fact that the 1000rwhp number is no longer god tier says something in itself. Last line provides a good point.

a used 2013 GT is less expensive and superior to a terminator in every conceivable way. Better handling, faster, better mpg, better ride, nicer interior...etc.

At this point there is no logical argument for buying a 03/04 cobra unless for nostalgia/sentimental value or other emotional reasons.

Handling yes, ride quality yes, interior quality yet, MPG yes, but faster is debatable. If we are talking stock to stock, yes. If they each have $5K worth of mods, I'd say the Cobra would win. I'm not sure where the break even point is with mods invested for the coyote to be the clear winner.

Ever owned or drove a Vintage Ferrari or Porsche?

It’s called “character”.

It’s those nuance differences that set cars apart.

Also a great point, it's not the performance that keeps cars relevant/desired many times, it's the feeling it gives you when you drive/look at it.

 

[SVTCobra60]

Classic Ferrari's and Porsche's are lauded for their awful ergonomics.

The ergonomic compromises are often part of engineering decisions or restrictions and are celebrated as part of the cars character and charm.

An Air-Cooled 911 for example - has almost the exact same ergonomics as a SN95.

Knees jammed in the dash and steering wheel, but you can't reach the shifter and can't see the gauges. Shifts (915 Transmission) are the same vague long awkward throws that a T5/45 and T-56 have. Clutch is heavy and cable operated. Vehicle balance is different and requires skill and experience to drive to full potential. Limited Head Room, Worthless rear seats, but plenty of cargo space. Good forward visibility and able to see the hood and length of the car. Amazing engine sound and response. Very Torque biased.

The big difference between the too is the weight and feel of the steering. Mustang being mushy and over boosted. The 911 was using 30 year old torsion suspension up until 1989 before going to coil/spring with the 964.

The Cobra represents the last of the small Mustangs. It is the last Mustang free of all the Nanny Gadgets that have come to dominate modern cars. 15-billion airbags, LCDs, Voice-Sync, Navigation, USB Connectors, Heated-Cooled Seats, Stability Control, Electronic Steering, Launch Control, Collision Warning, drive by wire, back up cameras... on and on.

Yes, it is a chassis that dates back to 1979, but that is what makes it great. It's simple, robust and is all about the driving experience.

The Terminator is the American Supra. During the 90's the US had nothing that could touch the onslaught of modern imports in terms of "out of the box" build potential. Most imports had amazing blocks that could take +1000whp, forged factory cranks, forged rods with the cast pistons being the only limiter. Meanwhile you got to pick between a SBF that would crack in half at 400hp or a Mod-Motor with chicken bone powdered rods. (Or explaining to your parents you are coming out and bought a Chevy).

The Terminator finally gave us an engine like the 2JZ, VG30DETT, RB26DETT, 4G63, or 6G72. Just apply fuel and boost and go fast. No need to immediately rip your engine, buy a aftermarket block and rotating assembly, and then apply money and still go slow.

I'd argue the Cobra is still one of the street kings. As others have said, every person you talk to knows the car and respects it, including the Import, Euro and Chevy boys. Walk on over to 1320 and you'll still see Cobra's making regular appearances giving people hurt feelings.

We can argue "Stock for Stock" all we want, but these cars are 15 years old and we are talking "real world" here. There is nothing a Coyote Car can do that a Cobra can not do just as well. If it was not for the prevalence of the GT and V6 cars, I suspect the Cobra would be priced out like a MKIV Supra.

The secret to still making all these modern cars cry - Turbos.
View attachment 1494504

Good comparison with the Porsche/old classics.

I'm not sure if I agree that the Terminator engine is quite on par with the 2JZ-GTE / V160 6-speed, but like you said, it did extraordinarily well compared to our other offerings.

I've been waiting for someone to bring up Turbos haha

 

[jpro]

Very well said and great points. I agree.






Also a great point, it's not the performance that keeps cars relevant/desired many times, it's the feeling it gives you when you drive/look at it.

Ain't nothing like seeing a Terminator up close and in person. Very rare to see one roaming the streets. I love car meets just to get a glimpse of one.

 

[SVTCobra60]

Great to see how many people are joining in on this discussion! Mostly friendly exchanges as well! LOL

 

[big reg]

Classic Ferrari's and Porsche's are lauded for their awful ergonomics.

The ergonomic compromises are often part of engineering decisions or restrictions and are celebrated as part of the cars character and charm.

An Air-Cooled 911 for example - has almost the exact same ergonomics as a SN95.

Knees jammed in the dash and steering wheel, but you can't reach the shifter and can't see the gauges. Shifts (915 Transmission) are the same vague long awkward throws that a T5/45 and T-56 have. Clutch is heavy and cable operated. Vehicle balance is different and requires skill and experience to drive to full potential. Limited Head Room, Worthless rear seats, but plenty of cargo space. Good forward visibility and able to see the hood and length of the car. Amazing engine sound and response. Very Torque biased.

The big difference between the too is the weight and feel of the steering. Mustang being mushy and over boosted. The 911 was using 30 year old torsion suspension up until 1989 before going to coil/spring with the 964.

The Cobra represents the last of the small Mustangs. It is the last Mustang free of all the Nanny Gadgets that have come to dominate modern cars. 15-billion airbags, LCDs, Voice-Sync, Navigation, USB Connectors, Heated-Cooled Seats, Stability Control, Electronic Steering, Launch Control, Collision Warning, drive by wire, back up cameras... on and on.

Yes, it is a chassis that dates back to 1979, but that is what makes it great. It's simple, robust and is all about the driving experience.

The Terminator is the American Supra. During the 90's the US had nothing that could touch the onslaught of modern imports in terms of "out of the box" build potential. Most imports had amazing blocks that could take +1000whp, forged factory cranks, forged rods with the cast pistons being the only limiter. Meanwhile you got to pick between a SBF that would crack in half at 400hp or a Mod-Motor with chicken bone powdered rods. (Or explaining to your parents you are coming out and bought a Chevy).

The Terminator finally gave us an engine like the 2JZ, VG30DETT, RB26DETT, 4G63, or 6G72. Just apply fuel and boost and go fast. No need to immediately rip your engine, buy a aftermarket block and rotating assembly, and then apply money and still go slow.

I'd argue the Cobra is still one of the street kings. As others have said, every person you talk to knows the car and respects it, including the Import, Euro and Chevy boys. Walk on over to 1320 and you'll still see Cobra's making regular appearances giving people hurt feelings.

We can argue "Stock for Stock" all we want, but these cars are 15 years old and we are talking "real world" here. There is nothing a Coyote Car can do that a Cobra can not do just as well. If it was not for the prevalence of the GT and V6 cars, I suspect the Cobra would be priced out like a MKIV Supra.

The secret to still making all these modern cars cry - Turbos.
View attachment 1494504

I have to disagree on the priced like an MKIV. The reason the MKIV is so expensive is they sold so few and were expensive to begin with. The 1993 Supra sold for upwards of 50k new. Due to poor sales the 1998 sold for 38k.

I was in the market for an MKIV in 03 but bought a new STI instead (****ing idiot). 27k for a 97 with under 20k miles. That car now would sell for upwards of 50-60k.

They made what 10k Terminators a year for 2 years? They sold 6977 Turbo Supras from 93-98 of which only 4K were 6 spds. Most have been butchered by ricers and rich kids in the early 2000’s. I’ve seen 4 Supras in person, driven one (BPU). Even finding decent ones for sale is almost impossible nowadays. I could find a Terminator if I wanted one in about 30 mins in whatever color I wanted. I see a few Terminators a year on the road and I don’t even go to car meets anymore.

I think al out of people have just moved on to more modern platforms. I love my heated and cooled seats, Nav etc... I appreciated the Terminator for its time but no car holds a nostalgic place in my heart unless it’s a 69 Camaro or Hemi Cuda.

 

[GT Premi]

I have to disagree on the priced like an MKIV. The reason the MKIV is so expensive is they sold so few and were expensive to begin with. The 1993 Supra sold for upwards of 50k new. ...

I can still remember the first time I saw the sticker for the '93 Supra Turbo. I had to clutch my pearls! My first thought was, "Who in the world would pay that kind of money for a TOYOTA?!?" A Corvette of the same year was, what, $30K?

Another reason the MkIV appreciated in value was because they stopped selling it in the States right about when demand was going up for them (thanks to being more reasonably priced), and they were still selling them in Japan and elsewhere. Nothing makes a car more coveted in the States than when everybody except us has access to it. For a while in the mid-2000s, people were going crazy trying to buy and build a turbo-lag-king Supra. But yeah, the MkIV was grossly overpriced initially.

 

[03 Cobra DSG]

I love my Cobra it’s not my daily but I love driving it. There’s a ton of money into now but it’s still a great feeling when you pull away from a Lambo or Porsche and people come flock to it at a car show......it’s still a beast!


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[Corbic]

I have to disagree on the priced like an MKIV. The reason the MKIV is so expensive is they sold so few and were expensive to begin with. The 1993 Supra sold for upwards of 50k new. Due to poor sales the 1998 sold for 38k.

I was in the market for an MKIV in 03 but bought a new STI instead (****ing idiot). 27k for a 97 with under 20k miles. That car now would sell for upwards of 50-60k.

I can still remember the first time I saw the sticker for the '93 Supra Turbo. I had to clutch my pearls! My first thought was, "Who in the world would pay that kind of money for a TOYOTA?!?" A Corvette of the same year was, what, $30K?

1993 Corvette (Base) - $34,595 (AFI - $61,035.67)
1993 Corvette ZR1 - $58,995 (AFI - $104,084.39) (for a CHEVY?!!)

1993 964 Turbo - $74,000 (AFI - $130,557.59)
1994 993 Turbo - $99,000 (AFI - $170,363.97)

1993 MKIV Turbo - $39,900 (AFI - $70,395.24)
1996 MKIV Turbo - $50,400 (AFI - $82,124.58)
1998 MKIV Turbo - $40,500 (AFI - $63,052.69)

2003 SVT Cobra - $ 38,995 (AFI - $53,993.80)

2018 Nissan GT-R - $99,990 (BASE)
2018 911 Turbo - $163,800
2019 Corvette ZR1 - $119,995
2019 GT500 - LOLWUT?!?


The issue with pricing was due to the Japanese market and value of the Yen. It is ultimately what destroyed the whole Japanese Super Sports Car as well as forced all the major Japanese brands to extend manufacturing into the US.

The argument that FNF has something to do with Supra pricing is idiotic. They where expensive new, expensive used and Japanese SSC are exploding in price right now as they have reached a classic status.

They made what 10k Terminators a year for 2 years? They sold 6977 Turbo Supras from 93-98 of which only 4K were 6 spds. Most have been butchered by ricers and rich kids in the early 2000’s. I’ve seen 4 Supras in person, driven one (BPU). Even finding decent ones for sale is almost impossible nowadays. I could find a Terminator if I wanted one in about 30 mins in whatever color I wanted. I see a few Terminators a year on the road and I don’t even go to car meets anymore.

Production Numbers

Terminator - 2003 Coupe 8,394
- 2004 Coupe 3,768
Total : 12,162

Supra - Turbo 6,977
- N/A 4,2627
Total : 11,239 (Total Production was 42,721)


Like I said. Because you can buy a GT/V6 and build a Cobra, that keeps Cobra prices in check. Price of N/A Supra's have Skyrocketed as well because for a few grand you put a CD009 and a built turbo motor into one and it's as good as any TT car. If a Terminator was $50k, people would just grab and build any of the 952,873 New Edge cars and build one. If anything, its a testiment to the desirability of these cars that a 5spd GT is still worth 5-6k and a MACH 1/ 99/01 Cobra are in the low teens.

A damn 350z, RX8 or 330ic are barely worth a pocket of change.

 

[Serpent]

Production Numbers

Terminator - 2003 Coupe 8,394
- 2004 Coupe 3,768
Total : 12,162

Supra - Turbo 6,977
- N/A 4,2627
Total : 11,239 (Total Production was 42,721)

You forgot to put 2003 & 2004 New Edge production numbers if you are comparing supra production numbers.
Total production in JUST the two 2003 & 2004 years = 294,000+

Source: 2003 Mustang Production Numbers

I used to want a Terminator, but after the GT500 came out and other cars with blowers came out it went off the list. Right now the desirable mustang for me is a GT350R. Maybe the next GT500 when it comes out.

 

[jeffh81]

I can still remember the first time I saw the sticker for the '93 Supra Turbo. I had to clutch my pearls! My first thought was, "Who in the world would pay that kind of money for a TOYOTA?!?" A Corvette of the same year was, what, $30K?

Another reason the MkIV appreciated in value was because they stopped selling it in the States right about when demand was going up for them (thanks to being more reasonably priced), and they were still selling them in Japan and elsewhere. Nothing makes a car more coveted in the States than when everybody except us has access to it. For a while in the mid-2000s, people were going crazy trying to buy and build a turbo-lag-king Supra. But yeah, the MkIV was grossly overpriced initially.

I literally loled at the “clutch my pearls!” line

 

[Corbic]

You forgot to put 2003 & 2004 New Edge production numbers if you are comparing supra production numbers.
Total production in JUST the two 2003 & 2004 years = 294,000+

Source: 2003 Mustang Production Numbers

No, I did not.

People want a Turbo Supra. They buy NA cars to build them. NA cars are rare. This is the same reason a VIntage fastback Mustang is worth double the price of a coupe, even if it’s not a Boss or Shelby.

NA MKIV has all the performance of a SC300, and you don’t see SCs going for $20k-30k.

 

[Serpent]

No, I did not.

People want a Turbo Supra. They buy NA cars to build them. NA cars are rare. This is the same reason a VIntage fastback Mustang is worth double the price of a coupe, even if it’s not a Boss or Shelby.

NA MKIV has all the performance of a SC300, and you don’t see SCs going for $20k-30k.

You posted those numbers like the mustang is a rare car, in two years alone there were more mustangs produced compared to the 42k supras.

 

[Revvv]

Classic Ferrari's and Porsche's are lauded for their awful ergonomics.

The ergonomic compromises are often part of engineering decisions or restrictions and are celebrated as part of the cars character and charm.

An Air-Cooled 911 for example - has almost the exact same ergonomics as a SN95.

Knees jammed in the dash and steering wheel, but you can't reach the shifter and can't see the gauges. Shifts (915 Transmission) are the same vague long awkward throws that a T5/45 and T-56 have. Clutch is heavy and cable operated. Vehicle balance is different and requires skill and experience to drive to full potential. Limited Head Room, Worthless rear seats, but plenty of cargo space. Good forward visibility and able to see the hood and length of the car. Amazing engine sound and response. Very Torque biased.

The big difference between the too is the weight and feel of the steering. Mustang being mushy and over boosted. The 911 was using 30 year old torsion suspension up until 1989 before going to coil/spring with the 964.

The Cobra represents the last of the small Mustangs. It is the last Mustang free of all the Nanny Gadgets that have come to dominate modern cars. 15-billion airbags, LCDs, Voice-Sync, Navigation, USB Connectors, Heated-Cooled Seats, Stability Control, Electronic Steering, Launch Control, Collision Warning, drive by wire, back up cameras... on and on.

Yes, it is a chassis that dates back to 1979, but that is what makes it great. It's simple, robust and is all about the driving experience.

The Terminator is the American Supra. During the 90's the US had nothing that could touch the onslaught of modern imports in terms of "out of the box" build potential. Most imports had amazing blocks that could take +1000whp, forged factory cranks, forged rods with the cast pistons being the only limiter. Meanwhile you got to pick between a SBF that would crack in half at 400hp or a Mod-Motor with chicken bone powdered rods. (Or explaining to your parents you are coming out and bought a Chevy).

The Terminator finally gave us an engine like the 2JZ, VG30DETT, RB26DETT, 4G63, or 6G72. Just apply fuel and boost and go fast. No need to immediately rip your engine, buy a aftermarket block and rotating assembly, and then apply money and still go slow.

I'd argue the Cobra is still one of the street kings. As others have said, every person you talk to knows the car and respects it, including the Import, Euro and Chevy boys. Walk on over to 1320 and you'll still see Cobra's making regular appearances giving people hurt feelings.

We can argue "Stock for Stock" all we want, but these cars are 15 years old and we are talking "real world" here. There is nothing a Coyote Car can do that a Cobra can not do just as well. If it was not for the prevalence of the GT and V6 cars, I suspect the Cobra would be priced out like a MKIV Supra.

The secret to still making all these modern cars cry - Turbos.
View attachment 1494504

Agreed with the exception of turbos.

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[SVTCobra60]

Agreed with the exception of turbos.

Sent from my SM-G930V using the svtperformance.com mobile app

What about the turbo part do you not agree with?

 

[Corbic]

You posted those numbers like the mustang is a rare car, in two years alone there were more mustangs produced compared to the 42k supras.

Read it again. SVT Cobra is a rare car. If it had not been for the 1 million other New Edge cars, I suspect they would command $50k as well.

If anything, it’s a testament to the popularity and cult following of the Cobra, that with 1 million base models, Cobras are still worth $20-35k.

 

[SVTdreamin04]

Ya know! Some say the new 5.0 is such a better car. Well, if it was, I wouldn't have killed it like three times when I test drove one a couple of weekends ago.......

Having a Spec 3+ clutch in my Cobra may have had a little something to do with that. I just about put my foot thru the floor board andet the clutch out so fast it was ridiculous.

The dig at the 5.0 was a joke by the way. I loved the car and agree, they are more comfortable, and have serious mod potential. But it didn't turn heads like the ol' Cobra does.

I will own a 5.0, but the Cobra stays.


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[SVTdreamin04]

Read it again. SVT Cobra is a rare car. If it had not been for the 1 million other New Edge cars, I suspect they would command $50k as well.

If anything, it’s a testament to the popularity and cult following of the Cobra, that with 1 million base models, Cobras are still worth $20-35k.

Corbic.....you of all people should hate on Cobra's. Yours is cursed. Lol


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[mdever12]

If you’re talking about speed, no they’re not. However, outside of the 350R and the ‘03/‘04 cobras, I’ve never caught myself turning my head to watch a “newer” mustang go by (I’m biased though)