Intellectual Laziness (3)

[NasteeNate]

I still control it.
Your claim is simple science does not invent, man discovers. I claim that man invents. How many gawds and myths of gawds exist? All of them are man's invention.

Man do not invent "gawds" they come from somewhere. You think all the myths, legends, or stories are purely fabricated from the imagination? I think not, there a slight truths in these things. For example, there is a thread called "Titanoboa" where they found a ancient snake almost 50 feet long through bones in quarry somewhere close to south America. You think all these legends of animals or things or whatever are just a fairy tale? For story or a picture that is pass down for 1000 of years had to have an origin. This is by no means an example to explain "gawds" as you call it, but man just doesn't invent fictional creatures just cause...

Man is hard wired to worship God. You can see this through many cultures and races all over the world. The problem is we choose idols and call them "gods" instead of giving true worship to the God. You can choose not to worship God because your entitled to your free will. But the majority of people will worship God, or gods in some form of fashion. Money, cars, clothes, houses whatever may be. Whatever you hold dear to your heart that's will your treasure be also.

 

[01cobravortech]

Man do not invent "gawds" they come from somewhere. You think all the myths, legends, or stories are purely fabricated from the imagination? I think not, there a slight truths in these things. For example, there is a thread called "Titanoboa" where they found a ancient snake almost 50 feet long through bones in quarry somewhere close to south America. You think all these legends of animals or things or whatever are just a fairy tale? For story or a picture that is pass down for 1000 of years had to have an origin. This is by no means an example to explain "gawds" as you call it, but man just doesn't invent fictional creatures just cause...

Man is hard wired to worship God. You can see this through many cultures and races all over the world. The problem is we choose idols and call them "gods" instead of giving true worship to the God. You can choose not to worship God because your entitled to your free will. But the majority of people will worship God, or gods in some form of fashion. Money, cars, clothes, houses whatever may be. Whatever you hold dear to your heart that's will your treasure be also.

So true, so true on so many levels. :beer:

 

[TheCPE]

Man do not invent "gawds" they come from somewhere. You think all the myths, legends, or stories are purely fabricated from the imagination?

Right, EVERYTHING is based on truth and nothing is imagined...

Mickey Mouse is real, unicorns exist, and Santa Claus can squeeze his big ass down chimneys...

Of course man invented gods, because man needs to try to make sense of its world and in our infancy gods/religion is the best we could come up with.

For example, there is a thread called "Titanoboa" where they found a ancient snake almost 50 feet long through bones in quarry somewhere close to south America.

:dw:

This is by no means an example to explain "gawds" as you call it, but man just doesn't invent fictional creatures just cause...

:??:

Man is hard wired to worship God. You can see this through many cultures and races all over the world.

There is obviously some truth to this because I completely believe that you are sincere, I don't think you are a charlatan like so many that have profited off of religion but weren't truly believers.

Why you do is the question. There is no evidence to make someone religious, you use very simple and easily countered rationale and yet you aren't alone in believing in "god".

There are many theories and I've got my own, partially people are pattern seeking as others have pointed out. Humans seek explanations that don't necessarily exist. Also, our mortality frightens us and our gift of intelligence is also a burden in that we have such abstract capabilities beyond instinct we can't understand or believe that life has no point. We are very self absorbed as a species due to our consciousness and it is too much to fathom that we are merely the inevitable product of existence and we have a shelf life.

 

[B0B]

there is no god. mankind has always explained things that couldn't be fathomed or rationalized as being "supernatural." Religion is just a way to keep the human race in balance. If it weren't for religion, why not steal, rape, cheat, kill, or lie? Because those are sins. If you sin, you will go to hell. Morals are derived from religion. So is hate. if it weren't for religion, there would be no religious war. Religion has caused more war and death than any other conflict combined in the history of mankind. So, would the world be a better or worse place without religion? who introduced religion to human beings on earth? why multiple religions?

What if religion is something that was thought up of and created from our own race... maybe there once was no such thing as religion. what if Humans advanced in technology much further than what we have now? what if the world became overpopulated and we depleted the resources that earth has to offer? whereas the few remaining survivors used time travel to come back to the times of "Christ" and implement multiple religions and "Bibles" and or "Books of Morals" to reverse the destruction of our race by using these multiple "religions" to create a balance and homeostasis that would allow the human race to survive into the future?

this theory of religion that i just thought up of an pulled out of my ass is more believable to me than there being a "God" that is the creator of everything. i believe in the evolution of the universe, that life has no meaning, and that we are a spec of life in an eye blink of an existence of an infinite universe. This universe that we live in is full of mystery, which we find more and more about as our technological advancement progresses. I hope that we discover extra terrestrial life sometime in my lifetime, because once we do, the theory of religion is out the window.

i think that most of the mysteries of our existence can be explained by the influences to our kind from extra terrestrial beings, not god. Gods are aliens. that's my belief. and i think there is more proof that it is true than a supernatural god.

 

[stangmanfive0]

there is no god. mankind has always explained things that couldn't be fathomed or rationalized as being "supernatural." Religion is just a way to keep the human race in balance. If it weren't for religion, why not steal, rape, cheat, kill, or lie? Because those are sins. If you sin, you will go to hell. Morals are derived from religion. So is hate. if it weren't for religion, there would be no religious war. Religion has caused more war and death than any other conflict combined in the history of mankind. So, would the world be a better or worse place without religion? who introduced religion to human beings on earth? why multiple religions?

What if religion is something that was thought up of and created from our own race... maybe there once was no such thing as religion. what if Humans advanced in technology much further than what we have now? what if the world became overpopulated and we depleted the resources that earth has to offer? whereas the few remaining survivors used time travel to come back to the times of "Christ" and implement multiple religions and "Bibles" and or "Books of Morals" to reverse the destruction of our race by using these multiple "religions" to create a balance and homeostasis that would allow the human race to survive into the future?

this theory of religion that i just thought up of an pulled out of my ass is more believable to me than there being a "God" that is the creator of everything. i believe in the evolution of the universe, that life has no meaning, and that we are a spec of life in an eye blink of an existence of an infinite universe. This universe that we live in is full of mystery, which we find more and more about as our technological advancement progresses. I hope that we discover extra terrestrial life sometime in my lifetime, because once we do, the theory of religion is out the window.

i think that most of the mysteries of our existence can be explained by the influences to our kind from extra terrestrial beings, not god. Gods are aliens. that's my belief. and i think there is more proof that it is true than a supernatural god.

so whats stopping you to steal, cheat, lie, rape, and kill your life away doesnt that just sound like so much fun...?

 

[STAMPEDE3]

I have removed several 1 line comments and several off topic post.

This thread was actually turning into a good debate.
Do not jack it with snide remarks or off topic comments.

 

[B0B]

so whats stopping you to steal, cheat, lie, rape, and kill your life away doesnt that just sound like so much fun...?

I'm glad you asked. Its because our western culture is based upon the morals derived from Christianity, and so are our laws. If we were to live in a region where a different religion is prominent, our laws and morals would be focused more towards the religion in which those ideas are prominent.

I don't need to be threatened by going to hell, or inspired to go to heaven to live a life of morals. I don't commit crimes because it is illegal, and i have been taught that it is wrong. not because god tells me how to live my life. I am happy to be alive, and i live my life to the fullest. Because when i die, i'm dead. and there is no after life. God has nothing to do with the way i live my life. Religion does, in a sense, because that's how our culture and way of life is defined.

 

[NasteeNate]

Right, EVERYTHING is based on truth and nothing is imagined...

Mickey Mouse is real, unicorns exist, and Santa Claus can squeeze his big ass down chimneys...

Of course man invented gods, because man needs to try to make sense of its world and in our infancy gods/religion is the best we could come up with.



:dw:



:??:



There is obviously some truth to this because I completely believe that you are sincere, I don't think you are a charlatan like so many that have profited off of religion but weren't truly believers.

Why you do is the question. There is no evidence to make someone religious, you use very simple and easily countered rationale and yet you aren't alone in believing in "god".

There are many theories and I've got my own, partially people are pattern seeking as others have pointed out. Humans seek explanations that don't necessarily exist. Also, our mortality frightens us and our gift of intelligence is also a burden in that we have such abstract capabilities beyond instinct we can't understand or believe that life has no point. We are very self absorbed as a species due to our consciousness and it is too much to fathom that we are merely the inevitable product of existence and we have a shelf life.

I can't call for Mickey Mouse or unicorns, but I believe there was a real santa claus at one point in time. Unfortunately, he wasn't immortal and is subject to expire like all of us.

Thanks for the response, I really respect your point of view from a non-believer perspective. Sorry I didn't clarify myself in the line you highlighted. I was just typing like If I were having a conversation with somebody haha. Now to where you said something about patterns. I think part of it stems from being thankful. If a primitive culture is secluded from this technological advanced age, and haven't been westernized, there going to be grateful about their survival in what ever they inhabit. For instance, if they go out and kill for food then bring it back to their village. I don't think they are going to pat themselves on the back for an awesome score. They are going to thank "God" or whatever they worship for the meal that they got. I think is a small piece of big puzzle. We are hard wired in a way that whatever we do we are going to put something first. And God definitely wants to be first in our lives because he is our provider. Talking about the Hebrew God, Yahweh that Jews and gentiles "Christians" worship. This is how I see it.

 

[stangmanfive0]

I'm glad you asked. Its because our western culture is based upon the morals derived from Christianity, and so are our laws. If we were to live in a region where a different religion is prominent, our laws and morals would be focused more towards the religion in which those ideas are prominent.

I don't need to be threatened by going to hell, or inspired to go to heaven to live a life of morals. I don't commit crimes because it is illegal, and i have been taught that it is wrong. not because god tells me how to live my life. I am happy to be alive, and i live my life to the fullest. Because when i die, i'm dead. and there is no after life. God has nothing to do with the way i live my life. Religion does, in a sense, because that's how our culture and way of life is defined.

If you dont believe in morals, then that would mean you shouldn't believe in the laws being illegal. Since they were founded and taught from a moral perspective. Living life to its fullest should mean, breaking the mold of the moral code of human society. Since by being a non believer and our culture is the other side of the coin you should act the part. Like the other guy said we are all hard wired to have some sort of moral obligation to society/God. If there is no GOD then there are no morals so go steal that 2013 GT500 that you know you want. Why care...? If you only live once and when your dead your dead? So F it. Simply because if you don't believe in morals directly taken from God, Like if you are married then in a indirect way you do believe there is a God. I say if your going to go as far as saying "there is no God" yet all societies really in the history of mankind has had some belief of a higher power, why conform?

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

Saying religion (or Christianity in this debate) is to control the masses is being intellectually lazy imo.

I really don't think either side completely believes it, but it's such an easy explanation as to why we have religion these days and it's irrefutable by the other side with hard evidence, so people keep using it regardless of evidence or even logic to show why that is a valid argument. I've been on here a long time and I've always seen it used to interject into the argument just so the poster can show everyone can see where that poster stands; no one ever provides any evidence as to why!

To clarify, we have the Bible which is very much complete and thorough of the times and events that occurred in the era. Although there may be writings out there that back up what the Bible says and outside writings that also document the times, there is no further evidence that we know of that proves something drastically outside what the Bible says historically about the culture of the time.

To go on the premise that the Bible was created to control, do you not feel that the author then left a lot of questions to be answered that may very well have been answered on the spot during its writing? We obviously have an individual here (the author) that is more intelligent than 99% of people at the time and apparently still smarter than approximately a 1/3 of the world even now as he's still duping them! For a writer that intelligent why did he/they leave out the important questions about this fabricated god that could have easily furthered the manufactured truth and left out any doubt? Especially in the beginning, like questions of where this god came from or other examples such as why he allowed others to be enslaved with his approval like so many on here tirelessly bring up. Our inherent nature finds slavery wrong and even physically it feels wrong as it is most commonly documented as abusive throughout history. So why would any such author argue for slaves to obey their masters rather than revolt against them as human nature would desire? What human nature would find just and faultless? Note: This stance is even held during the slavery of the author's own people!

I believe it goes beyond human reasoning to not answer such things. And I don't mean that in a way that the text is lost, but that the opportunity to explain or offer an explanation simply wasn't taken. Is this error on the author's part? I don't believe so as these are simple questions that would be considered the basis for such an argument, but the author decided to intentionally leave these answers out for whatever apparent reasons while writing multiple books with multiple chapters in each. So did he really have that much insight on what information to give and leave out that would make people swarm to hear what he had written?


...I'll continue on later. I need to stop and go to bed and what I have left to write will take me forever. But I'm sure most of you will see the point I'm trying to make with this.

 

[DaleM]

Man do not invent "gawds" they come from somewhere. You think all the myths, legends, or stories are purely fabricated from the imagination? I think not, there a slight truths in these things. For example, there is a thread called "Titanoboa" where they found a ancient snake almost 50 feet long through bones in quarry somewhere close to south America. You think all these legends of animals or things or whatever are just a fairy tale? For story or a picture that is pass down for 1000 of years had to have an origin. This is by no means an example to explain "gawds" as you call it, but man just doesn't invent fictional creatures just cause...

Man is hard wired to worship God. You can see this through many cultures and races all over the world. The problem is we choose idols and call them "gods" instead of giving true worship to the God. You can choose not to worship God because your entitled to your free will. But the majority of people will worship God, or gods in some form of fashion. Money, cars, clothes, houses whatever may be. Whatever you hold dear to your heart that's will your treasure be also.

Man is hard wired to explain the unknown. Some use the simplicity of religion and myths. Others do not stop there.
Many reach their limit of understanding by accepting the man written ancient tribal texts.
Man invented every gawd out there. You can argue man did not, reality does not support your argument.

 

[TheCPE]

I'm glad you asked. Its because our western culture is based upon the morals derived from Christianity, and so are our laws.

That is partially true of our laws but the idea that religion invented morality isn't accurate.

The golden rule existed before any of the abrahamic religions and while not 100% complete it does summarize very well the concept of morality and solidarity.

It is a very common argument that without religion we would have chaos and violence and the world would be a terrible place but it just isn't true. The more we understand the biology of ourselves the easier it will be to explain why most of us (not psychopaths) are born with an understanding that you don't do certain things.

 

[TheCPE]

Now to where you said something about patterns. I think part of it stems from being thankful.

Perhaps, and being thankful manifests different behaviors in different people.

It is because I realize that just by sheer luck of being born in a specific region and to certain parents I was given advantage over 99.9% of the global population that I began to doubt religion in the first place.

I absolutely know how lucky I am and am very thankful for it, I didn't deserve anything more than anyone that is born in a war torn third world country. But just because I feel thankful doesn't mean I feel it toward a "god" that doesn't exist.

So I don't think being thankful necessitates being religious.

 

[TheCPE]

If there is no GOD then there are no morals so go steal that 2013 GT500 that you know you want.

This is a very common misconception of morality. For starters, like I previously pointed out morality wasn't invented by the abrahamic religions. There is evidence of the existence of the Golden Rule nearly 2k years prior to the invention of christianity.

So the premise that there is no morality and everyone SHOULD or COULD act however they liked without religion is false. A non-believer has in my opinion more of a reason to behave morally than a believer, because the non-believer isn't being persuaded to behave morally by pressure of eternal damnation or salvation.

If you only live once and when your dead your dead? So F it.

This argument can be turned around on the believer in a more compelling way. For the believer if you can receive redemption through a human sacrifice and all your sins accounted for so you can enjoy eternal life after this one, why should you behave now?

The non-believer understands he gets one shot at life and must make the most of it.

 

[TheCPE]

To clarify, we have the Bible which is very much complete and thorough of the times and events that occurred in the era.

What evidence is there to support this claim? The bible was written nearly 200 years after the events supposedly occurred that are written about. The people were illiterate and thus the "stories" were initially only oral.

Nothing about that makes me believe the bible to be very historically accurate or thorough.

 

[DaleM]

What evidence is there to support this claim? The bible was written nearly 200 years after the events supposedly occurred that are written about. The people were illiterate and thus the "stories" were initially only oral.

Nothing about that makes me believe the bible to be very historically accurate or thorough.

What is funnier is out of all the books presented at the various canons, mere mortal men cherry picked which ones were "authentic". The mighty Catholics no less.

 

[TheCPE]

What is funnier is out of all the books presented at the various canons, mere mortal men cherry picked which ones were "authentic". The mighty Catholics no less.

Very good point.

The cherry picking didn't/doesn't end there, people cherry pick passages/verses today since so many are so terrible.

 

[DaleM]

Very good point.

The cherry picking didn't/doesn't end there, people cherry pick passages/verses today since so many are so terrible.

Along with the terrible premise that we are "hard wired" to worship the gawds, you'd think it/they/she/she could get us all to agree on the same one. Not the 1000s that we invented.

I can see ancient village elders being challenged to explain floods or lightning or even death. Their answers probably lead to the support of their tribe but to consolidate other tribes. Why? Because man seems more hard wired for power, wealth, and control via ego.

 

[Carbd86GT]

If we were "hard wired" to worship gods, how come everyone doesn't worship gods? If we were hard wired, we wouldn't have a choice...

 

[wurd2]

...our western culture is based upon the morals derived from Christianity...

Here's my challenge to this claim:
Can anyone name a single moral principle that is exclusively the result of Christianity?

:shrug:

.