HVAC experts... outside R22 based unit died

[firebird1999us]

I've got an electric system and my outdoor, out of warranty RUUD compressor is not kicking on. I seem to have a major issue with this system (which is only 6-7 years old) whenever it gets warm or cold... had HVAC company out yesterday and they added a "booster" and new, larger capacitor to outdoor unit because of hard starting. Which I guess is common when an outdoor unit is on the way out? He gave me the caveat that the unit "might not start back up tonight"... and he was right.

The unit just sits and makes a loud hum and the guy told me it's because it's going bad altogether. Fan won't kick on or anything - but the fan does become very hot like current is going to it but not kicking it on. Apparently it isn't just a bad fan?? I turned the whole thing off for fear it would catch fire - and it's not doing anything anyway.

So I can source an R22 unit, replace it, then pay to have the entire system refilled (apparently the gas all drains out or can't be reused when the compressor is unhooked?) - which means I'll probably dump a substantial portion of money into an already problematic system using a gas that's being phased out.... Or I can replace the whole damn thing?

The place yesterday pitched a Trane XL15i 3 ton 15 seer R410a Puron heat pump and Trane Tam 7 R410a Puron 3 ton hyperion air handler with 10 kw heat strip for the house. Total install quote from them with everything is roughly $6500. I'm sure that can be negotiated down and they would apply the quick fix money I spent for yesterdays service call to price as well. Although I'm calling several other places to get quotes.

I'm in North Georgia so replacement is a must... just need to get an idea of pricing based on the type of system they quoted me. I do know the Trane stuff comes with a 10 year parts and labor warranty and seems to get great reviews for performance and efficiency. I'm certain the system in the house now was probably purchased at a huge discount back in 2007 because R22 was being phased out...

Any input?

 

[VirtualSVT]

How big and how many stories is your house?

 

[firebird1999us]

How big and how many stories is your house?

I think about 1700 sq ft. 2 stories with a zone system. The unit in here now is a 3 ton as well.

The quote was from Reliable Heating and air.

 

[NELCO]

Trane units are one of the best units out there. He put on a hard start kit, and he is giving you a fair price for the new unit. I would try to negotiate and get yesterday's service call comped for free with new purchase and pay about 5800 to 6000.
Good luck, Nelco

 

[firebird1999us]

Trane units are one of the best units out there. He put on a hard start kit, and he is giving you a fair price for the new unit. I would try to negotiate and get yesterday's service call comped for free with new purchase and pay about 5800 to 6000.
Good luck, Nelco

There's another place a little more local that I have to call Monday for direct price comparison. I just know I need to act fast because once it gets hot in Georgia my house will be unlivable until the AC is back on! I'll likely get the 60 months/0% apr a lot of places are offering through May. I mean at $6000 that's $100 a month - and I'm sure it will make a huge difference on my electic bill. So really I'll be paying $60-80 with savings I'm sure.

 

[alex3610]

Find someone that deals in American Standard. It is basically the same stuff inside as Trane. Trane makes good products, but imho they are way too much money.

 

[YJSONLY]

The only thing I hate HATE about trane is the their parts are$$$$ because they have to come from trane! And for the most part can't be out sourced.

 

[firebird1999us]

Find someone that deals in American Standard. It is basically the same stuff inside as Trane. Trane makes good products, but imho they are way too much money.

What would be a comparable system?

Air Conditioners, Home Heating and Cooling Systems | American Standard

 

[Mr. Mach-ete]

The service guy puts a hard start kit on your 7 year old 3 ton r-22 unit because the compressor is not running but the out door fan is, am I reading this correctly?

Compressors that stop running that are open on the internal overload protector usually are not gettin sufficient super heated refrigerant back to the compressor. It's the refrigerant that keeps the compressor cool and keeps it running. If your unit is low on charge or the thermal expansion valve is starving the indoor coil for sufficient refrigerant your compressor will run hot.

What if I told you your compressor may not be the issue but a symptom of a poorly operatiing TVX? Before spending $6,000 on a new system have another service company perform a superheat calculation with the refrigerant charge topped off. I would be willing to bet you have a TXV issue. Replacing a TXV costs $400.00, that's a lot cheaper than $6k!

BTW, I'm a licensed Master HVACR contractor.

 

[firebird1999us]

The service guy puts a hard start kit on your 7 year old 3 ton r-22 unit because the compressor is not running but the out door fan is, am I reading this correctly?

Compressors that stop running that are open on the internal overload protector usually are not gettin sufficient super heated refrigerant back to the compressor. It's the refrigerant that keeps the compressor cool and keeps it running. If your unit is low on charge or the thermal expansion valve is starving the indoor coil for sufficient refrigerant your compressor will run hot.

What if I told you your compressor may not be the issue but a symptom of a poorly operatiing TVX? Before spending $6,000 on a new system have another service company perform a superheat calculation with the refrigerant charge topped off. I would be willing to bet you have a TXV issue. Replacing a TXV costs $400.00, that's a lot cheaper than $6k!

BTW, I'm a licensed Master HVACR contractor.

The fan is NOT running. The unit makes a loud humming noise instead of engaging and and the top of the fan gets really hot. I do know that the compressor was prone to a loud knocking noise on occassion after it finished running if I recall correctly.

I wish you lived closer man... I'd totally have you over to figure this thin out. Stressful time. My dad passed away last Thursday, I'm trying to help my mom figure out paperwork, finances, health insurance, an where to live while putting together the funeral, and then this shit. Life happens - but damn!oke:

 

[Mr. Mach-ete]

I would be more than happy to help out if I could.

I'm sensing the service company is not tell you the whole truth. They prey on people's ignorance of the situation unfortunately. Do you have a good neighbor that you can get a reference from regarding hvac service companies in your area? I think I would spring for a second opinion. If your system was 12 years or older I would say time to get a new one.

Keep us posted.

 

[firebird1999us]

I would be more than happy to help out if I could.

I'm sensing the service company is not tell you the whole truth. They prey on people's ignorance of the situation unfortunately. Do you have a good neighbor that you can get a reference from regarding hvac service companies in your area? I think I would spring for a second opinion. If your system was 12 years or older I would say time to get a new one.

Keep us posted.

I can try a local place tomorrow. I'm sure this kind of thing happens all the time and people surely don't just buy new systems left and right? There's got to be a simple fix (like you suggested above) that doesn't involve an entirely new systemoke:

 

[cobraetti]

whatever you do with your current system is up to you but the price for the Trane XL15I is very reasonable...based on the companies reputation and the financing available right now...swap that POS OUT!

A Trane will keep you happy for many years and not to mention you will love the variable speed handler

 

[firebird1999us]

whatever you do with your current system is up to you but the price for the Trane XL15I is very reasonable...based on the companies reputation and the financing available right now...swap that POS OUT!

A Trane will keep you happy for many years and not to mention you will love the variable speed handler

Yeah that's kind of how I feel too partly... I'm sick of dumping money into old system. I've probably got $1500 into it over 6 years:kaboom:

 

[snkchmr 1]

Been in the HVAC game for many years (family owned business) & the Rheem/RUUD products really went downhill. I grew up on the Rheem brand & stopped selling it around 08 or 9.
I sale Heil now & have been very pleased with the product & service.

 

[slow306stang]

The service guy puts a hard start kit on your 7 year old 3 ton r-22 unit because the compressor is not running but the out door fan is, am I reading this correctly?

Compressors that stop running that are open on the internal overload protector usually are not gettin sufficient super heated refrigerant back to the compressor. It's the refrigerant that keeps the compressor cool and keeps it running. If your unit is low on charge or the thermal expansion valve is starving the indoor coil for sufficient refrigerant your compressor will run hot.

What if I told you your compressor may not be the issue but a symptom of a poorly operatiing TVX? Before spending $6,000 on a new system have another service company perform a superheat calculation with the refrigerant charge topped off. I would be willing to bet you have a TXV issue. Replacing a TXV costs $400.00, that's a lot cheaper than $6k!

BTW, I'm a licensed Master HVACR contractor.

and there you have it.

Commerical HVAC Service tech and I couldn't have said it any better. TXV, filter dryer, r22, and labor should have you back in the game.

Edit - fan motor on the outdoor unit doesn't come on either? Does the system have a combo fan/compressor capacitor? It could really be a $15 dollar fix if so LOL

double edit - fan motor not running could be causing high head pressure which will shut to the compressor off. Could be a bad fan motor/capacitor and the unit is simply protecting itself.

 

[firebird1999us]

and there you have it.

Commerical HVAC Service tech and I couldn't have said it any better. TXV, filter dryer, r22, and labor should have you back in the game.

Edit - fan motor on the outdoor unit doesn't come on either? Does the system have a combo fan/compressor capacitor? It could really be a $15 dollar fix if so LOL

double edit - fan motor not running could be causing high head pressure which will shut to the compressor off. Could be a bad fan motor/capacitor and the unit is simply protecting itself.

The unit tries to kick on but just makes a loud buzz instead of the fan moving. The fan isn't seized up either. When I shut the breakers off and had no power to the unit I was easily able to spin the blade. No ice formation or anything. I bet it is a combo capacitor. When it's not warm outside you can actually feel a little cool air blowing through the vents... just not when it's 80 and the suns hitting the house. The lines seem cold. Previously they discovered a gasket on the freon fill valve was missing so I was losing freon... that doesn't seem to be the case. I'll have to get second opinion on Tuesday... and if they tell me it's like a $15 fix I'll definitely have a lengthy conversation with Reliable.

 

[slow306stang]

The unit tries to kick on but just makes a loud buzz instead of the fan moving. The fan isn't seized up either. When I shut the breakers off and had no power to the unit I was easily able to spin the blade. No ice formation or anything. I bet it is a combo capacitor. When it's not warm outside you can actually feel a little cool air blowing through the vents... just not when it's 80 and the suns hitting the house. The lines seem cold. Previously they discovered a gasket on the freon fill valve was missing so I was losing freon... that doesn't seem to be the case. I'll have to get second opinion on Tuesday... and if they tell me it's like a $15 fix I'll definitely have a lengthy conversation with Reliable.

It sounds like the compressor is running and the condenser fan motor is not. The higher the outside air temperature is the higher the head pressure is in the system. If the condenser fan motor is not running you cannot remove the heat from the system and the pressure will build. And r22 system will normally shut down a high head pressure of 400 PSI. If the compressor comes on and the fan does not it is either a bad condenser fan motor or capacitor.

My phone sucks and it's hard to type this stuff out.

 

[firebird1999us]

It sounds like the compressor is running and the condenser fan motor is not. The higher the outside air temperature is the higher the head pressure is in the system. If the condenser fan motor is not running you cannot remove the heat from the system and the pressure will build. And r22 system will normally shut down a high head pressure of 400 PSI. If the compressor comes on and the fan does not it is either a bad condenser fan motor or capacitor.

My phone sucks and it's hard to type this stuff out.

It must be something to do with capacitor. He said he used a larger capacitor at first and that wasn't enough to get the thing going. Then he said he added a booster and that got it running. The fan was spinning and the house was very clearly cooling at that point. When I came home later that night though the fan was buzzing and the center where it connects to the top of the grill/fan shroud where the motor is was very hot?

 

[EatonEggbeater]

Put a box fan sideways on top of the unit that's always on.

If your house cools normally; you've got a fan issue.

I did this in my house until we could get a replacement fan installed. (remove if raining...)