Hellion Twin Turbo Kit

[Eatonualive281]

They would make almost identical power, the only thing that would change is spool time assuming that the turbine can move the air required. If back pressure becomes an issue then yes the power output changes but as I said holding ALL things the same changing the inducer size will not create MORE power at the EXACT same airflow. Any additional air gathered by the larger inducer would be bled off by the wastegate (thus why 17 lbs is 17 lbs regardless of if you had twin 76mm turbos). The ONLY advantage in his turbo's over say GT35r's is that they are more efficient and that does translate to increased response and ability to flow MORE air overall.

Imagine this, a straw, you blow through an end with x amount of air, there is no resistance the straw is able to support all x amount of air. You grab a bigger straw and blow the same x amount of air, the air is still able to be supported by the straw and the end result on the other end is the same amount of air. If I blow Y amount of air and it happens to be more than the straw can support THEN a larger straw would be able to support MORE air. Up to that point the larger straw is of no advantage.

By your theory everyone should run 88mm pro mods on their stock long block cars because they would make the most power at 17 lbs of boost.

Gotcha.

So why did my car go from 802 whp at 18 psi and 16deg to 905 whp at 18 psi and 16deg just by swapping to 64s over my old 62s? Nothing was changed but the turbos. Both T4 frames. same size ar.

After re reading your post I think we got confused. The hotside wheels also changed in size. When I was refering to 58s I was think of a 5858ish turbo. And he has 6266s. So

 

[Nightmare302]

Gotcha.

So why did my car go from 802 whp at 18 psi and 16deg to 905 whp at 18 psi and 16deg just by swapping to 64s over my old 62s? Nothing was changed but the turbos. Both T4 frames. same size ar.

After re reading your post I think we got confused. The hotside wheels also changed in size. When I was refering to 58s I was think of a 5858ish turbo. And he has 6266s. So

There becomes a point in which a certain turbo can not physically move enough air quickly enough to make power. As I mentioned before with the straw example there becomes a point in which I would have to try MUCH harder to blow the same air through a smaller diameter straw because the straw can simply not handle the incoming air.

I would assume you removed a good deal of back pressure at that point, making 905rwhp requires considerably more air than making 600-700. At his power level and the amount of air he is moving it would be difficult to see any performance increase between a 76mm or twin 62mm's assuming they are both the precision cea's or like turbos. As you increase the required amount of air the benefit or a larger turbo becomes apparent.

My entire argument lies on the premise that people think a stock long block cobra with a turbo kit on pump gas can make +800rwhp. That is false. He would need considerable more work to make the power he wants to make on pump. Making 750rwhp on pump gas is difficult and dangerous.

I will add, on a pump gas car there would be nearly zero benefit going from twin 58's to twin 62's in terms of peak power. The 58's flow enough air to support the power level.

Posting more info about your dyno/logs would also benefit us in trying to help you. A peak dyno number tells you very little about how a car is running.

 

[Eatonualive281]

Agreed

 

[Mashburn94]

Was it a Mustang dyno? Are those numbers corrected or uncorrected? What elevation, temp, humidity? What kind of numbers have other cars put down on the dyno? 17 degrees isn't a whole lot but with that much boost on pump I understand why. If this was on e85 you'd make the number you want.

Elevation is roughly 1000 above sea level, 93 Octane. Dyno was a Dyno Jet, 8% Humidity. What do you mean by corrected and uncorrected numbers? E85 I was told should be around 850-900

Still haven't said if this was on 91 or 93 octane?

93 Octane

 

[Onelfastlride]

What kind of power should I be making on pump gas? Mods are 6266 Twin Precision Turbos, 01 Cobra IM, 80# Ford Racing Injectors, Fore Innovations Dual AEM pump system, 8.5:1 Compression, stock heads, 17#'s of boost, BA5000 MAF.
Car has been tuned, I just think the numbers are to low.

Stock 8.5 compression. You are not going to make big power on low boost levels like a high compression coyote motor. My car back in the day with a 2.2L KB made 620 @ 19 psi and then 720 at @ 20 psi with a T-76. 815 @ 24ish psi with a PT-78.

 

[Juiced46]

Can you post a dyno sheet?

Also is the engine healthy? Have you checked compression and leakdown to rule that out?

 

[Mashburn94]

My issue is, is it had a 2.3 whipple with a stock fuel system with 60# injectors, I added a dual pump FORE system and two 6266 turbos, and it ony gained 100 HP.
Basicaly is 678 RWHP and 580 RWTQ right for this set up or is it low?

 

[Juiced46]

Can you answer my questions?

 

[Mashburn94]

motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. It was fine then. Compression is 8.5:1 as stated earlier, no leaks.

 

[Nightmare302]

With low compression and things as you mentioned on pump gas your numbers are fine. If you are really worried about it, do a compression/leak down test. If you want to make real power you need to switch to e-85 or race fuel so you can get some timing in the tune. I would also argue that if you are using stock 03 cobra cams you are leaving 20-40rwhp out compared to even a set of 98 Cobra cams degreed in. The real question is how it runs down a track, dynos will vary 10+% place to place, day to day.

 

[Juiced46]

Alot of things can happen in 5000 miles. Alot can happen to an engines health in a 1/4 mile pass. You still havent answered my questions so its hard to help. I know your compression ratio is 8.5. Thats not what I am asking. I am asking what compression test and leakdown test results are so we know the health of your engine Also please post a dyno sheet so we can analyze it. Your #s are not terrible. My turbo car always dynoed low but performed well at the track. We need more info to help you.....

 

[Mashburn94]

We the car does not see the track, trans and rear end are not bulit so I do not want to take a chance at the track yet. I have only had it back from being tuned a few weeks. I'l have to get some time to upload the dyno sheet. I also cannot remember the exact results, but the motor was completely healthy.

 

[Juiced46]

Sigh.....doesnt matter. Things happen, you do not see the point. How docyou know the engine is healthy?

 

[s351]

Hey, juiced I tried telling another guy this same thing a month ago. And he kept saying it was just built as a reply, some guys just don't get how easy it is to hurt a motor.

I think they just want to vent because the car didn't make the power they thought it would make, they don't actually want answers or to check the things that need to be checked.

Throw some meth on it and add some timing if you want more power, or just chalk it up to a low reading dyno, if your motors perfect and you don't have a boost leak.

 

[Juiced46]

Hey, juiced I tried telling another guy this same thing a month ago. And he kept saying it was just built as a reply, some guys just don't get how easy it is to hurt a motor.

I think they just want to vent because the car didn't make the power they thought it would make, they don't actually want answers or to check the things that need to be checked.

Throw some meth on it and add some timing if you want more power, or just chalk it up to a low reading dyno, if your motors perfect and you don't have a boost leak.

I hear ya. We are all here trying to help for the most part but its hard to help when people do not provide info and they are not getting the answers they want to hear.

It is like going to the doctor and telling him you are sick. But do not tell him what your symptoms are and demand for him to tell you the cure....

Now I am not saying the engine is hurt, but however when someone is "down on power" (allegedly) there are a few steps that need to be taken to rule things out.

The first few things to check are the engines health. You cannot come on here and tell me its fine and been fine for 5000 miles. That is BS. A motor can fail or be hurt at any point in time even if it was healthy 10 mins prior. It does not take much to melt a piston.

With that being said, I am not implying this car has catastrophic failure but the engine can still be hurt with little to no visual or audible symptoms. A compression test and leak down test need to be done. This will tell us if there are any weak/weakening cylinders. Rule out air escaping past valve seats and all that fun stuff. Like I said, if this was not done, you cannot tell me your engine is healthy, sorry.

Also the compression test will also tell, you could have a cam timing issue and not even know it! Again, no info on compression test results so how can we help further?

OP asked for help, he said he "thinks" there is an issue but does not want to take the steps to figure it out. He just wants us to tell him the things he wants to hear. Well, its not always that easy and you need to TEST and DIAGNOSE stuff and not just come on the internet and ask people "what is wrong with my car" you will get 43857438957435 different answers. The best one that comes up is, "have you changed your fuel filter" LOLOLOL

Anyhow, how about boost leaks? Surely this was checked right? I doubt it.....Next response from OP I bet will be "there is no boost leaks" Did you test this? If so how? Visual?? Well that is not going to work either... You may have a boost leak and not even know it. Yea the car is making boost but that does not mean anything. You can still have air leaks even if the couplers visually look tight. The cold side and intake would need to be smoke tested for leaks. Yea the car is making 17psi, but if there is a boost leak the turbo may actually be working harder to make that boost level because of an air leak.

In this day and age, everyone and their mothers have camera phones. It will take 14seconds to take a picture of your dyno sheet with a camera phone and post it on here.

Other than that, if you cannot answer these questions there really is no way to tell if there is something wrong with your car or not. There very well be an issue but there is a chance it is just fine. You CANNOT base your #s off of what other people are making with turbos on different days, different combos and especially different dynos. Maybe it is just a low reading dyno. Who knows?

So please answer these questions for us so we can further help you. If not you are just pissing in the wind.

 

[Mashburn94]

I hear ya. We are all here trying to help for the most part but its hard to help when people do not provide info and they are not getting the answers they want to hear.

It is like going to the doctor and telling him you are sick. But do not tell him what your symptoms are and demand for him to tell you the cure....

Now I am not saying the engine is hurt, but however when someone is "down on power" (allegedly) there are a few steps that need to be taken to rule things out.

The first few things to check are the engines health. You cannot come on here and tell me its fine and been fine for 5000 miles. That is BS. A motor can fail or be hurt at any point in time even if it was healthy 10 mins prior. It does not take much to melt a piston.

With that being said, I am not implying this car has catastrophic failure but the engine can still be hurt with little to no visual or audible symptoms. A compression test and leak down test need to be done. This will tell us if there are any weak/weakening cylinders. Rule out air escaping past valve seats and all that fun stuff. Like I said, if this was not done, you cannot tell me your engine is healthy, sorry.

Also the compression test will also tell, you could have a cam timing issue and not even know it! Again, no info on compression test results so how can we help further?

OP asked for help, he said he "thinks" there is an issue but does not want to take the steps to figure it out. He just wants us to tell him the things he wants to hear. Well, its not always that easy and you need to TEST and DIAGNOSE stuff and not just come on the internet and ask people "what is wrong with my car" you will get 43857438957435 different answers. The best one that comes up is, "have you changed your fuel filter" LOLOLOL

Anyhow, how about boost leaks? Surely this was checked right? I doubt it.....Next response from OP I bet will be "there is no boost leaks" Did you test this? If so how? Visual?? Well that is not going to work either... You may have a boost leak and not even know it. Yea the car is making boost but that does not mean anything. You can still have air leaks even if the couplers visually look tight. The cold side and intake would need to be smoke tested for leaks. Yea the car is making 17psi, but if there is a boost leak the turbo may actually be working harder to make that boost level because of an air leak.

In this day and age, everyone and their mothers have camera phones. It will take 14seconds to take a picture of your dyno sheet with a camera phone and post it on here.

Other than that, if you cannot answer these questions there really is no way to tell if there is something wrong with your car or not. There very well be an issue but there is a chance it is just fine. You CANNOT base your #s off of what other people are making with turbos on different days, different combos and especially different dynos. Maybe it is just a low reading dyno. Who knows?

So please answer these questions for us so we can further help you. If not you are just pissing in the wind.

I will do another compression and leak down test to give you the actual numbers. All I am saying is, this is not my daily driver, the car hardly ever sees the road. It has less than 1,000 miles on the rebuild. It is not as simple as me doing it in my driveway. I own a shop and customers needs take the place of my own.
If you read my initial post, I never said that there was an issue, I simply asked what it should be putting down. Hellion has told me it should be putting down 700-750. That is more what I was expecting before I even talked to hellion. I think there is an issue somewhere since my numbers seem low compared to other threads and people I have talked to. I am not trying to get a 1,000 hp car. When I want that I will do race gas and up the boost. (after trans and rear end work.)
I wil give the results of the compression test and leak down as soon as I find time to get to work on my own car.

 

[Juiced46]

It has less than 1,000 miles on the rebuild. It is not as simple as me doing it in my driveway. I own a shop and customers needs take the place of my own.
If you read my initial post, I never said that there was an issue, I simply asked what it should be putting down.

Actually, I did read your post. Did you go back and read what you wrote? Because you are contradicting yourself and changing the story. Here I will point out to you.....

Timing is +17, Brand New Spec Stage 3+, stock T56 Trans. Not saying it should make 800 plus.
I think there is an issue. Your example already made more torque on less boost. I did not break into 600's. Hellion also told me that 750 would be a good number to make with this setup. So I know it is making less than it should.

You just said, you NEVER said there was an issue. In this quote above, you said you think there is an issue......

motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. It was fine then. Compression is 8.5:1 as stated earlier, no leaks.

Here in this previous post, you stated the engine was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. Today you say it has less than 1,000 miles on the rebuild....

Elevation is roughly 1000 above sea level, 93 Octane. Dyno was a Dyno Jet, 8% Humidity. What do you mean by corrected and uncorrected numbers? E85 I was told should be around 850-900
93 Octane

I asked you what your compression test results were in a previous post you said "Compression is 8.5:1" That is not results. Then you say you do not remember, well if it was good or bad, surely you would remember.

Its hard for us to believe anything you are saying since the story keeps changing.....

You also say, you own your own shop. Please, please I hope its not a performance shop. No offense man, but if I asked someone compression test results and they say "8.5:1" they clearly have no idea what they are talking about....

I asked for dyno sheets, and they were never supplied, that can tell us alot also. Also you do not even know the difference between corrected and uncorrected #s, that plays a BIG role in dyno #s, especially @ +1000 feet depending on conditions.

You said this is on 17#s of boost. Was this logged? Did the dyno gauge show 17#s? A boost gauge in the car? Boost controller? I just worked on a low mileage KB cobra a few weeks back his bost gauge is 4 #s OFF.

So many variables here, still not enough data to see whats really going on.

Are the #s low? maybe, but not really since we do not have all the info. Some dynos read low. My Turbo car ALWAYS made low #s but performed at the track. I trapped 144mph with 590rwhp with a 3650# car.

I had a customer dyno his KB Cobra a few years back. Car made 650rwhp. It was not enough for him, he thought he should make 700+ Drove 1 hr that same day, no changes to the car, to a different dyno and made 740rwhp. Same dyno, no tune changes. ANYTHING is possible.

I understand people are busy, I work 2 jobs, I run my own shop as well. But we are here trying to help, but we are not getting any info out of you and the story keeps changing.

So what is it you want us to do?

Tell you there is something wrong? OK, fine, yes there is something wrong, you are 22rwhp off of what you think you should make. Start changing parts and dynos until it makes more.....

This is what I am getting at, there are steps to take to see if there is actually something wrong, or if it is just a low reading dyno...... I am trying here but you are not giving us much to go on....

 

[Mashburn94]

Actually, I did read your post. Did you go back and read what you wrote? Because you are contradicting yourself and changing the story. Here I will point out to you.....



You just said, you NEVER said there was an issue. In this quote above, you said you think there is an issue......



Here in this previous post, you stated the engine was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. Today you say it has less than 1,000 miles on the rebuild....




I asked you what your compression test results were in a previous post you said "Compression is 8.5:1" That is not results. Then you say you do not remember, well if it was good or bad, surely you would remember.

Its hard for us to believe anything you are saying since the story keeps changing.....

You also say, you own your own shop. Please, please I hope its not a performance shop. No offense man, but if I asked someone compression test results and they say "8.5:1" they clearly have no idea what they are talking about....

I asked for dyno sheets, and they were never supplied, that can tell us alot also. Also you do not even know the difference between corrected and uncorrected #s, that plays a BIG role in dyno #s, especially @ +1000 feet depending on conditions.

You said this is on 17#s of boost. Was this logged? Did the dyno gauge show 17#s? A boost gauge in the car? Boost controller? I just worked on a low mileage KB cobra a few weeks back his bost gauge is 4 #s OFF.

So many variables here, still not enough data to see whats really going on.

Are the #s low? maybe, but not really since we do not have all the info. Some dynos read low. My Turbo car ALWAYS made low #s but performed at the track. I trapped 144mph with 590rwhp with a 3650# car.

I had a customer dyno his KB Cobra a few years back. Car made 650rwhp. It was not enough for him, he thought he should make 700+ Drove 1 hr that same day, no changes to the car, to a different dyno and made 740rwhp. Same dyno, no tune changes. ANYTHING is possible.

I understand people are busy, I work 2 jobs, I run my own shop as well. But we are here trying to help, but we are not getting any info out of you and the story keeps changing.

So what is it you want us to do?

Tell you there is something wrong? OK, fine, yes there is something wrong, you are 22rwhp off of what you think you should make. Start changing parts and dynos until it makes more.....

This is what I am getting at, there are steps to take to see if there is actually something wrong, or if it is just a low reading dyno...... I am trying here but you are not giving us much to go on....

Please forgive me for making a typo. The motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. not 1,000. Thanks for catching my error.
But you CAN NOT read. I stated that "I THINK" there is an issue. Lower than expected numbers is the reason I THINK there is an issue. The car responds fine, seems like there are no issues just from driving. So I'll state my original post AGAIN. I asked if these numbers seem normal or if they are low.
I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be.
All I am wondering was if the numbers were low or normal. I should have time this weekend to do an up to date compression test and give you the actual results. The dyno graph will also be posted as it is filed in the shop. I have not given the requested information simply because I have not had the time to get it. Lots of lift kits and transmission work going on.

 

[itzl0l]

how much timing? sorry if i missed it.

93 oct pump right?

 

[Juiced46]

Please forgive me for making a typo. The motor was rebuilt 5,000 miles ago. not 1,000. Thanks for catching my error.
But you CAN NOT read. I stated that "I THINK" there is an issue. Lower than expected numbers is the reason I THINK there is an issue. The car responds fine, seems like there are no issues just from driving. So I'll state my original post AGAIN. I asked if these numbers seem normal or if they are low.
I am by no means an expert, nor do I claim to be.
All I am wondering was if the numbers were low or normal. I should have time this weekend to do an up to date compression test and give you the actual results. The dyno graph will also be posted as it is filed in the shop. I have not given the requested information simply because I have not had the time to get it. Lots of lift kits and transmission work going on.

Ok then, to answer your question without seeing a dyno sheet or answer to my other questions.

Your #s are on par to what it should make.