Harmonic Balancer Question

[OzzDOA]

That's not a typical result for under drives (not counting the fluid filled units) but it still illustrates my point that the damper itself is not worth much since much of the gains can be achieved from simply putting the larger pulleys on the accessories.

Maybe you got a good one, maybe you didnt. You wont know if you dont measure it.

The only thing I have a problem with is someone perpetuating an ongoing marketing campaign for a product they can only guess is safe because it looked OK.

LOL, in addition to an education I have common sense. You almost made it through an entire post without putting your foot in your mouth. I was really pulling for ya too. Keep trying.

While I find this coversation aggrivating it still keeps me from going brain-dead during the day. Let me address the sections I have quoted, since these seem to be the major sticking points.

1) I was surprised myself with the increase, and I only have the WP pulley and damper installed. As we all know, especially since these engines came off the Niche line, each car is a little different. Having a '99 I wasn't expecting that much. A member of my local club has an '01 and has seen similar results from the Steeda kit, so it would seem to provide relatively consistant results.

2) Well, I did measure the thing. You seem to have missed that little bit from my earlier post. I used a Mitutoyo 500 series digital caliper, if you must know.

3) I am not compaigning for or against anything. I am providing a differing opinion to yours in regards to the Steeda product. You have yet to provide any evidence showing that the new Steeda design is anything but adequate.

4) I feel as if I have made a pretty solid case for myself. Be honest, other than reading about it on the internet what other information did you gather to come to your conclusions? I have been 100% honest as to the methods and process that I used to make my decision. What was yours?

 

[Quadcammer]

its 3 god damn hp.

its not worth it.

Best thing would be for the driver to drop about 15lbs. Not only are you healthier, but you get almost the same performance gain.

 

[Tarball]

its 3 god damn hp.

its not worth it.

Best thing would be for the driver to drop about 15lbs. Not only are you healthier, but you get almost the same performance gain.

Really 3? i got 9, Oz got 11, NA got 11, that's 3 different 4v's 99, 03, 98 all got a decent power from them.

 

[Quadcammer]

Really 3? i got 9, Oz got 11, NA got 11, that's 3 different 4v's 99, 03, 98 all got a decent power from them.

wow, let me piss myself with excitement over 10rwhp.

 

[tmhutch]

NA SVT got 11 rwhp from a fluid filled damper. When they were first released they claimed 20 rwhp in NON-under drive configuration. Their claim was that the fluid did such a superior job of controlling crankshaft harmonics that the result was big horsepower. It is because of this that nobody disputes his results. That and he is a long term member with an excellent reputation and a consistent track record of contributing valuable information.

I find it interesting that the two biggest Steeda advocates who both happen to be new to the boards, have both conducted before and after dyno tests on Steeda pulleys, and both found the same unusually high result. Especially when all the dyno runs that have come before this showed no gains or gains that may or may not have been a result of run to run variances or weather conditions. What kind of dyno are you guys using?

In my own personal experience, I saw very little if any gain that could be attributed directly to the Steeda pulleys. And yes, they were removed a long time ago.

 

[Tarball]

Who the **** is talking Steeda, if you read (something people here need to learn to do) I am against Steed and USE a March (same as NA). And I used a DynoJet.

 

[STAMPEDE3]

Let me know when ya'll are finished.

 

[tmhutch]

Let me know when ya'll are finished.

LOL, were getting there.

 

[tmhutch]

While I find this coversation aggrivating it still keeps me from going brain-dead during the day. Let me address the sections I have quoted, since these seem to be the major sticking points.

1) I was surprised myself with the increase, and I only have the WP pulley and damper installed. As we all know, especially since these engines came off the Niche line, each car is a little different. Having a '99 I wasn't expecting that much. A member of my local club has an '01 and has seen similar results from the Steeda kit, so it would seem to provide relatively consistant results.

2) Well, I did measure the thing. You seem to have missed that little bit from my earlier post. I used a Mitutoyo 500 series digital caliper, if you must know.

3) I am not compaigning for or against anything. I am providing a differing opinion to yours in regards to the Steeda product. You have yet to provide any evidence showing that the new Steeda design is anything but adequate.

4) I feel as if I have made a pretty solid case for myself. Be honest, other than reading about it on the internet what other information did you gather to come to your conclusions? I have been 100% honest as to the methods and process that I used to make my decision. What was yours?

Wifey off to bed. Family time over. Time to get back to educating the newb.

1) I was surprised myself with the increase, and I only have the WP pulley and damper installed. A member of my local club has an '01 and has seen similar results from the Steeda kit, so it would seem to provide relatively consistant results.

Any real world information is valued on this board but you have to understand the skepticism when your experiences are so far removed from years of dyno testing to the contrary. Just because steeda has an updated design it doesnt mean it's going to magically make more power. An underdrive is an underdrive unless it's filled with fluid. It's not like they made it even smaller.

2) Well, I did measure the thing. You seem to have missed that little bit from my earlier post. I used a Mitutoyo 500 series digital caliper, if you must know.

No, I didnt “seem” to miss anything. You measured diameter and thickness. I'm talking about runout. Measuring runout will tell you if the circumference is perfectly round. Steeda has a reputation for being out of round. If you did measure runout, you didnt mention it.

3) I am not compaigning for or against anything. I am providing a differing opinion to yours in regards to the Steeda product. You have yet to provide any evidence showing that the new Steeda design is anything but adequate.

Again, it’s not my responsibility to provide proof that Steeda’s new design does or does not work properly. The burden of proof is on the company that has a history of destroying engines with a sub-quality product. This seems to be where we disconnect. The new steeda piece may be perfectly fine. I cannot say one way or another because it is new and I do not have the proper equipment to measure harmonics. So, until respected professionals or trusted individuals from these boards start tearing down engines and examining the flats/drive surfaces of the crankshaft, we wont know. In the mean time, all I have to go by is steedas historical record, and that is NOT good.

4) I feel as if I have made a pretty solid case for myself. Be honest, other than reading about it on the internet what other information did you gather to come to your conclusions? I have been 100% honest as to the methods and process that I used to make my decision. What was yours?

You keep asking this over and over but the answer is inherent in my posts. You’re not getting it so let's put it to rest. The case you claim to have made consists of:

1) John Lunds quote about small diameter dampers.

Sorry, but John Lund does not trump Pappito, Tymensky and Hyland. There is no opinion more widely respected in the DOHC community than the ones provided by these gentlemen. If I had to choose between the countries top three DOHC engine builders and Johns opinion, I would have to go with the top three. That's why my case is stronger than yours.


2) You say you "observed" the new damper.

Like I said before, that's great. But it doesnt tell you if it does the job. Only properly conducted harmonic testing or engine tear downs will tell us if it is or is not properly controlling harmonics. Until respected professionals or trusted individuals from these boards start tearing down engines and examining the flats/drive surfaces of the crankshaft, we won’t know. Your inability to comprehend this simple fact makes it impossible for you to make a strong case.


3) You said you performed before and after dyno testing and that you know one other person who did and had "similar" results.

I also performed before and after dyno testing with my own car and I have known SEVERAL people over the years from these boards that have done before and after testing as well. Your limited results dont match years of credible data. That's why my case is stronger than yours.


4) You said you researched underdrive dampers for "weeks" before making a decision, while I only "read the interwebs" for 8 years.

It's tough to figure out how you think a few weeks of "researching" can begin to compare with the time I've invested in this topic over the years. My own personal experience. The direct experience of others I have known. The experience of trusted and credible members. And the experience of the nation’s top engine builders. That's why my case is stronger than yours.


Bottom line, you have a credibility problem and you demonstrate a clear lack of knowledge as it applies to DOHC's. When a new guy with very little knowledge advocates so tirelessly for something of so little benefit, it makes people wonder. People know me and know my reputation for providing useful and accurate information. That's why my case is stronger than yours.

 

[OzzDOA]

Whatever, at this point I am just wasting my time. Think what you will, that I am just a "newb". I know what runout is, I know how to measure for it. If I am anal enough to measure the damping layer thickness you think I didn't measure other things?

*****WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT*****

You don't need any equipment to measure harmonics in a system like this other than a pencil, pad of paper and a decent calculator. With those tools, accurate dimensional measurements and the mass of the object you can get a pretty good idea of how well it will control oscillations in a rotational system along a fixed axis. It's more or less just Rotational Dynamics, no more complex than anything else covered in Newtonian Mechanics. Since the torsional vibration frequency range doesn't change in the system it can be discarded as a constant. So the only thing left is to calculate the rotational inertia properties of the mass damper in the torsional spring/mass damper system. Me, being the dork that I am, did that for for both the Steeda and stock damper to compare. Although the Steeda damper is of a smaller diameter its increased mass makes up for it. Ultimately it's the mass that does the damping, and that is why the fluid dampers work so well. It's second semester physics stuff.

**********

And I am done with this thread.

 

[totheduals]

Its because there are so many internet mech out there that have no clue!!!!
I run a Steeda and it has worked great for me the past few years. I have worked for a couple different Ford Stores and have never seen a problem with a well branded and properly installed pully kit.
Unless you are a Race Car Driver!!! and run around at 8000rpm for extended periods of time, any of the aftermarket pullies out there will work.
ITS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!!!!!!
Bub Bye

 

[Tarball]

Sorry, but John Lund does not trump Pappito, Tymensky and Hyland. There is no opinion more widely respected in the DOHC community than the ones provided by these gentlemen. If I had to choose between the countries top three DOHC engine builders and Johns opinion, I would have to go with the top three. That's why my case is stronger than yours.

Hyland, respected? your ****ing kidding me right? do you know how many people recommend AVOIDING him?


and Pappito and Tymensky ONLY ever talk about RACE APPLICATIONS that are high reving motors. they have never stated anything about a daily driven sub-7k motor.

You really love talking about situations that we ARNT talking about dont you?

 

[Tarball]

its because there are so many internet mech out there that have no clue!!!!
I run a steeda and it has worked great for me the past few years. I have worked for a couple different ford stores and have never seen a problem with a well branded and properly installed pully kit.
unless you are a race car driver!!! And run around at 8000rpm for extended periods of time, any of the aftermarket pullies out there will work.
its not rocket science!!!!!!
Bub bye

thank you!

 

[STAMPEDE3]

Ya'll done yet?

 

[Quadcammer]

its pointless to argue. Some people are so starved for power they would run a lump of coal as a crank pulley if their buddy said it worked ok.

might as well close it Barry.

 

[tmhutch]

Whatever, at this point I am just wasting my time. Think what you will, that I am just a "newb". I know what runout is, I know how to measure for it. If I am anal enough to measure the damping layer thickness you think I didn't measure other things?

*****WARNING SCIENCE CONTENT*****

You don't need any equipment to measure harmonics in a system like this other than a pencil, pad of paper and a decent calculator. With those tools, accurate dimensional measurements and the mass of the object you can get a pretty good idea of how well it will control oscillations in a rotational system along a fixed axis. It's more or less just Rotational Dynamics, no more complex than anything else covered in Newtonian Mechanics. Since the torsional vibration frequency range doesn't change in the system it can be discarded as a constant. So the only thing left is to calculate the rotational inertia properties of the mass damper in the torsional spring/mass damper system. Me, being the dork that I am, did that for for both the Steeda and stock damper to compare. Although the Steeda damper is of a smaller diameter its increased mass makes up for it. Ultimately it's the mass that does the damping, and that is why the fluid dampers work so well. It's second semester physics stuff.

**********

And I am done with this thread.

Getting pretty deep in here. Glad you're done.

 

[STAMPEDE3]

its pointless to argue. Some people are so starved for power they would run a lump of coal as a crank pulley if their buddy said it worked ok.

might as well close it Barry.

Just trying to figure out who I was gonna let have the last word. No one impressed me enough yet so I guess it will be me.


Nevermind.