Funny story and clutch cable question

[DSGNator]

I just wrapped up installing an FRPP TOB, FRPP pilot bearing, Lethal Performance TOB Retainer Sleeve, Spec flywheel, and Spec Stage 3 + clutch. I hit many of bumps along the way but overall I'm very happy with how my car drives now. On my initial test drive I noticed A LOT of free play in my clutch pedal. It still shifted fine but I was not ok with the 4 or 5 inches of free play that I was experiencing. I did some research and quickly realized that I needed to install an aftermarket clutch quadrant and a firewall adjuster. After a little more research I ordered a Steeda double hook quadrant and Steeda firewall adjuster. 2 days later (today) I received the parts and got to work installing them as soon as I got home from work. Lucky for me the 2nd step in installing the quadrant is to remove the clutch cable from the stock quadrant, because when I crawled under the dash to do so, I discovered a UPR triple hook quadrant. Then I decided I better check to see if there was a firewall adjuster and sure enough, there was a UPR firewall adjuster already in my firewall. You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I've never worked with clutch cables and accessories. So I got to work adjusting the firewall adjuster. I was able to remove all of the slack in the clutch pedal. I did notice that when driving it my clutch engagement point had drastically changed. I'd say the clutch engages about an inch from the pedal being all the way out. I can still drive the car ok, but this is not where I want it. Adjusting the firewall adjuster only seems to adjust the tension of the cable.

I'm guessing the route I need to take to change the engagement point would be an adjustable clutch cable. Is this correct? As always any suggestions are welcome. Thanks!

 

[Rolltide2012]

No sir stick with the oem cable. Aftermarket cables are junk. How are you adjusting the firewall adjuster?

 

[RTCOBRA2964]

The proper way to adjust engagement will be an adjustable pivot ball. As said earlier, DO NOT use an adjustable cable. Stick to the OEM. Do some research on here and you'll find some useful info on how to properly set it up. GL!

 

[DSGNator]

Man that is not what I wanted to hear. I really don't want to pull my transmission out again. I'm sure it would be easier this time though now that I have the experience and correct tools for the job. The UPR firewall adjuster thats currently in the car is the one with 2 disks. The outer one for adjusting the tension and the inner one for locking it in place. It doesn't seem to matter how much tension I put on the cable, The point of engagement doesn't change. Ya'll have any recommendations on how to posistion a new pivot ball? Or is that one of those every car is d8fferent things?

 

[DSGNator]

After driving my car a bit more I've noticed that if I adjust the firewall adjuster to eleminate all the slack in the clutch cable it causes my TOB to press against the pressure plate fingers all the time. I can hear the TOB spinning when I'm driving and not even touching the clutch pedal. Something else I've noticed is that whwn I lower the tension of my clutch cable to where the pedal feels all sloppy, the clutch engagement point is much lower. I've one some research and before I try replacing my clutch fork pivot ball I was to try making my own version of the LDC free play mod. This way I can have my engagement point lowere and still have pedal pressure from the freeplay mod. The parts are less than $5 and I won't have to pull the transmission to install it. So I'd say it's at least worth a shot.

 

[JrSVT]

While you're ordering parts, order a STOCK clutch cable. Cables stretch over time...thats what they do. I doubt you will need an adjustable pivot ball yet. The stock cable will be shorter and be able to work with your firewall adjuster and triple hook quadrant. Don't forget that if you need more or less cable you can change hooks on your quadrant. Lots of adjustment in the triple hook.



Jr.

 

[Avispa]

We need to clear up a few things about pedal free play, pedal travel and clutch engagement point here.

First, the free play depends on the cable length, how the cable jacket is positioned relative to the firewall and bellhousing, the pivot ball length and the cable hookup point on the quadrant. The factory self-adjusting quadrant is designed to keep the free play close to zero and the TOB in constant light contact with the pressure plate fingers.

If you can't get all the free play out of your pedal, it's because the overall geometry of the pressure plate fingers, the length of the pivot ball and the cable jacket position need to be fixed. I agree the stock cables are the best overall. You'll have to fix excessive free play with a firewall adjuster and if that's not enough, put in a longer pivot ball. I just put a few washers under mine to do the same thing, effectively.

Now about pedal travel and engagement point, pretty much every quadrant and fork have the same connection points to the cable and the same radius from the pivot hole to the cable channel, and so in combination they have the same pedal travel geometry. If all the free play is out of the cable, no matter what you do, starting from the pedal all the way up and moving it to the floor will move the TOB the same amount.

A new factory clutch with properly set free play (TOB just slightly preloaded against the pressure plate fingers) will engage close to the top of the pedal travel. As the clutch disk wears out, it takes more and more movement of the pressure plate fingers to release the clutch. Gradually the engagement point will move closer to the floor. Once you run out of cable adjustment and the clutch engages at the floor, it's time for a new clutch. There is no other fix.

Aftermarket clutches have different contact points between the fingers and the TOB, which will change the pedal movement to pressure plate movement (not TOB movement) relationship. They also have different heights, depending on the diaphragm or finger design. The height problem can be fixed like any free play problem with a combination of quadrant, cable and pivot ball adjustments.

Aftermarket clutches also have different pressure plate movement with respect to finger (and TOB) movement, depending on the fulcrum point in the pressure plate. The low effort Spec pressure plates have a longer finger travel for the same movement of the pressure plate, which is how they get the low pedal effort. They are going to run out of adjustment quicker than stock clutches because they need more TOB movement to get the same amount of pressure plate lift as with a high effort pressure plate.

So a properly adjusted cable and quadrant, with a good clutch should engage close to the top of pedal travel. You can always add in freeplay with your firewall adjuster (or adjustable cable) if you don't like the feel. Just remember there will come a time when all the free play is gone and the clutch starts engaging close to the floor. Then you know it's new clutch time.

Hope this helps.

 

[mmustangsrus]

subbing :beer:

 

[svtshadow]

We need to clear up a few things about pedal free play, pedal travel and clutch engagement point here.

First, the free play depends on the cable length, how the cable jacket is positioned relative to the firewall and bellhousing, the pivot ball length and the cable hookup point on the quadrant. The factory self-adjusting quadrant is designed to keep the free play close to zero and the TOB in constant light contact with the pressure plate fingers.

If you can't get all the free play out of your pedal, it's because the overall geometry of the pressure plate fingers, the length of the pivot ball and the cable jacket position need to be fixed. I agree the stock cables are the best overall. You'll have to fix excessive free play with a firewall adjuster and if that's not enough, put in a longer pivot ball. I just put a few washers under mine to do the same thing, effectively.

Now about pedal travel and engagement point, pretty much every quadrant and fork have the same connection points to the cable and the same radius from the pivot hole to the cable channel, and so in combination they have the same pedal travel geometry. If all the free play is out of the cable, no matter what you do, starting from the pedal all the way up and moving it to the floor will move the TOB the same amount.

A new factory clutch with properly set free play (TOB just slightly preloaded against the pressure plate fingers) will engage close to the top of the pedal travel. As the clutch disk wears out, it takes more and more movement of the pressure plate fingers to release the clutch. Gradually the engagement point will move closer to the floor. Once you run out of cable adjustment and the clutch engages at the floor, it's time for a new clutch. There is no other fix.

Aftermarket clutches have different contact points between the fingers and the TOB, which will change the pedal movement to pressure plate movement (not TOB movement) relationship. They also have different heights, depending on the diaphragm or finger design. The height problem can be fixed like any free play problem with a combination of quadrant, cable and pivot ball adjustments.

Aftermarket clutches also have different pressure plate movement with respect to finger (and TOB) movement, depending on the fulcrum point in the pressure plate. The low effort Spec pressure plates have a longer finger travel for the same movement of the pressure plate, which is how they get the low pedal effort. They are going to run out of adjustment quicker than stock clutches because they need more TOB movement to get the same amount of pressure plate lift as with a high effort pressure plate.

So a properly adjusted cable and quadrant, with a good clutch should engage close to the top of pedal travel. You can always add in freeplay with your firewall adjuster (or adjustable cable) if you don't like the feel. Just remember there will come a time when all the free play is gone and the clutch starts engaging close to the floor. Then you know it's new clutch time.

Hope this helps.

Amen, the clutch Prophet has spoken.


Going through my first clutch job, so every bit of information helps:beer::rockon:

 

[Avispa]

"The Clutch Prophet" also says, if you have an old input shaft from a T56, or a good steel alignment tool, use it to line up your clutch disk before cranking down that new pressure plate. The plastic tools that come with the clutch kit really don't do the job well enough.

The trans should slide all the way easily in without having to use the mounting bolts to pull it in. If you have to pull it in with the mounting bolts it's because the clutch disk is a little off center. Guaranteed to do at least a little damage to you new pilot bearing.

 

[svtshadow]

"The Clutch Prophet" also says, if you have an old input shaft from a T56, or a good steel alignment tool, use it to line up your clutch disk before cranking down that new pressure plate. The plastic tools that come with the clutch kit really don't do the job well enough.

The trans should slide all the way easily in without having to use the mounting bolts to pull it in. If you have to pull it in with the mounting bolts it's because the clutch disk is a little off center. Guaranteed to do at least a little damage to you new pilot bearing.

I found this out the hard way with the plastic tool.

 

[DSGNator]

We need to clear up a few things about pedal free play, pedal travel and clutch engagement point here.

First, the free play depends on the cable length, how the cable jacket is positioned relative to the firewall and bellhousing, the pivot ball length and the cable hookup point on the quadrant. The factory self-adjusting quadrant is designed to keep the free play close to zero and the TOB in constant light contact with the pressure plate fingers.

If you can't get all the free play out of your pedal, it's because the overall geometry of the pressure plate fingers, the length of the pivot ball and the cable jacket position need to be fixed. I agree the stock cables are the best overall. You'll have to fix excessive free play with a firewall adjuster and if that's not enough, put in a longer pivot ball. I just put a few washers under mine to do the same thing, effectively.

Now about pedal travel and engagement point, pretty much every quadrant and fork have the same connection points to the cable and the same radius from the pivot hole to the cable channel, and so in combination they have the same pedal travel geometry. If all the free play is out of the cable, no matter what you do, starting from the pedal all the way up and moving it to the floor will move the TOB the same amount.

A new factory clutch with properly set free play (TOB just slightly preloaded against the pressure plate fingers) will engage close to the top of the pedal travel. As the clutch disk wears out, it takes more and more movement of the pressure plate fingers to release the clutch. Gradually the engagement point will move closer to the floor. Once you run out of cable adjustment and the clutch engages at the floor, it's time for a new clutch. There is no other fix.

Aftermarket clutches have different contact points between the fingers and the TOB, which will change the pedal movement to pressure plate movement (not TOB movement) relationship. They also have different heights, depending on the diaphragm or finger design. The height problem can be fixed like any free play problem with a combination of quadrant, cable and pivot ball adjustments.

Aftermarket clutches also have different pressure plate movement with respect to finger (and TOB) movement, depending on the fulcrum point in the pressure plate. The low effort Spec pressure plates have a longer finger travel for the same movement of the pressure plate, which is how they get the low pedal effort. They are going to run out of adjustment quicker than stock clutches because they need more TOB movement to get the same amount of pressure plate lift as with a high effort pressure plate.

So a properly adjusted cable and quadrant, with a good clutch should engage close to the top of pedal travel. You can always add in freeplay with your firewall adjuster (or adjustable cable) if you don't like the feel. Just remember there will come a time when all the free play is gone and the clutch starts engaging close to the floor. Then you know it's new clutch time.

Hope this helps.

Wow, thank you so much for this post. That's quite a bit of information that I've never even thought of. To be honest before this project I didn't know much about clutches at all. But after this install, the T56 seems like it has a pretty simple clutch system. It may not be very easy to access, but over all it's not too complicated. I guess I'm saying this because I was so intimidated by this project before I tried it.

I installed my home made LDC freeplay kit today. I bought a 4" spring and a 3/4" to 1/2" copper pipe reducer. It only took me about 20 minutes. (That's record time for any project on my car.) It seems to have helped in 2 ways. The first being that my TOB no longer rides on my clutch fingers. I crawled under the car with the clutch fork cover off to verify it's position. The second way it helps is that it ads some preload to the clutch pedal to make up for the free play caused by the new clutch. It's still loose, but no where near as loose as it was. This allows me to use my firewall adjuster to achieve a slightly better clutch engagement point. The preload caused by the spring is noticeably different from the pressure needed to engage the clutch, but it beats the clutch pedal not even being able to support it's own weight for the first few inches. Overall I'm very happy with this set up. However my clutch feels different from what it used to (to be expected) so it's just taking a little getting used to.

Thank ya'll for your help!