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Fuel Filter E85?

Discussion in 'The Distillery' started by 2k4Terminator, Apr 15, 2011.

  1. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    This is exactly my point. I like how people think E85 is so bad for a fuel systems. Only draw back is more water content.
     
  2. venumb

    venumb Local chump Established Member

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    I have been running E-85 for a few months now with no issues. Stock pumps, stock filter, lines etc.. Only thing added was a KB BAP.
    Reading this thread makes me want to check my fuel filter though, that will be next on my agenda. It should be ok don't you think?
    I will check anyways and maybe replace it with ....??
     
  3. Chris _Scott

    Chris _Scott NA FTW Established Member

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    I just don't chance anything. It is half assed because you don't have the correct components that are rated to flow your fuel. You don't need something 'bigger' ...just the 'right' pieces.

    Just because the hoses and lines look fine, doesn't mean it isn't doing damage and that it is 'fine'.

    The alcohol also likes to break up a lot of the sediment in the gas tank and lines and will clog and destroy fuel filters, and if it gets passed your filter and clogs your injector while you are WOT w/ full boost. Good luck!

    If one day you come to a dead fuel pump in a parking lot because the fuel filter was clogged and strained and killed the pump, you will know exactly why.

    I'm not saying something will DEFINITELY happen..but why chance it? Do it right.

    Your vehicles..not mine. WTF do I know anyways??? :smmon:
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2011
  4. DTUB

    DTUB BFTD Established Member

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    Bawazir is that you :lol1::lol1::lol1:
     
  5. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    I have done more research then you could imagine. I am not worried one bit of anything failing. When I did switch to E85 I changed the filter a few times right off the bat to get all the crap out of the tank. I figure if i were to have a problem it would have shown up by now. When I switched no one else had. I was one of the first domestic guys around here to try it. I do check the componets for any signs of problems.

    So in your opinion what is the "Right" fuel system? How are my components not rated for my flow? with duty cycles in the 80's i dont need anymore flow.

    I do pull injectors to clean them regularly as they do build up some deposits on the outlet. It is almost like tar. It has been known to happen with burning E85. It has to do with the grounding of the fuel system. Some cars get it more than others. Bet that is something a lot of guys didn't know about it. Just a by-product of running E85. These are not my pics. But I do get a very little buildup after running 5-10k miles.

    DSC02928.jpg
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    Alright, I finished my analysis of this stuff, and my finding is very unexpected. I think it will probably surprise everyone else as well. This doesn't appear to be forming because ethanol is "such a good solvent" but because ethanol is a poor solvent. I suppose it should have been obvious when others said that it "washes right off with gasoline". Why would something that ethanol is selectively dissolving wash off with gasoline? If this were something in rubber or from our fuel tanks, wouldn't that imply that gasoline would dissolve it even more readily than E85?

    "Alright, so what is this stuff? It is a appears to be a very large petroleum based hydrocarbon, similar to Vaseline. There isn't a single hetero-atom in the molecule (ie, the entire molecule is comprised of hydrogens and carbons), but the molecule is very large. It is also completely aliphatic (ie, only single bonds in the structure - no double or triple bonds). Where did it come from? I can only think of two different sources it could be coming from. It is either something that is mixed in with the rubber hoses that is meant to dissolve away in the gasoline, or it is a trace impurity in the 15% gasoline that is in E85 that wasn't separated during the fractional distillation process. Because it is such a large molecule, it wouldn't be very soluble in ethanol and could easily crash out of solution at the injector."


    "I talked to a chemist friend of mine.

    He thinks it might be electrolysis pulling the free oxygen molecules off the HC chains in the ethanol and then doing some funky carbon double bonding. Octane molecules have a higher ionization energy and wouldn't be susceptible to this happening.

    He said that doing a better job grounding the fuel system may mitigate this by removing any voltage potential from the fuel system.

    Try grounding the lines, rail, tank and individual injector bodies with a dedicated ground wire to the battery. See what happens with that.

    This might explain why some cars have this worse than others. Varying levels of grounding in the fuel system."

    "
    Gasoline is called a "polymer" of oil, meaning it has the same basic chemical makeup but a different number of molecules. Those basic molecules that become stacked to become "poly"mers are called "mono"mers. Monomers are the basic building blocks of polymers. One of the little functions or switches of hydrocarbon monomers is static. That's how you can make different polymers is through utilizing static. It's a natural phenomenon that can be controlled and has been extensively studied. When it occurs in an uncontrolled fashion in your fuel system, you get gunk wherever the grounding occurs. In this case, it looks like it's the metal injector tip.

    That static phenomenon is not naturally controlled in E85 pump fuel. I'm very surprised someone posted this subject right out of the blue...

    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RdZEfpe6hA"]YouTube - Oil itself causing sparks (hydrocarbon static)[/nomedia]

    Here you can watch static in a crankcase. The positively charged oil is grounding out against the metal crankcase. They don't show it in the vid, but you get "pure hydrocarbon gunk" that way. It's basically like a hydrocarbon varnish, but wet in your case. I have never EVER seen it wet like this, especially in E85. That's probably one of the best technical finds ever on the internet about hydrocarbon gunk is these injectors. I can't thank you enough for putting this up. I'll get right on it .

    I honestly don't know if it caused THIS KIND of gunk on these injectors. But, the fact that those are metal bodied injectors makes me really really really think hard about this. Subaru injector bodies are plastic but with a metal cap. That Mitsu's steel bodied injector is sitting right in a steel fuel rail. Am I looking at that wrong? That's a steel-cased injector and not a steel capped injector like a Subaru. That's sitting in a metal fuel rail, too. Under high pressures there's something about this phenomenon being easier to trigger. I DON'T actually get it, but I do sort of understand it. The structure of that gunk being like a long chain hydrocarbon is because of static repeatedly being triggered at that point. The static discharge is "stacking" or "linking" hydrocarbon monomers where it is occurring, making a long chained polymer."



    Just a tad of info for you.



    E85 also has no ill affects on paper fuel filters. Yes over time they will break down but it's wise to change the filter on a regular basis with todays crap fuels.
     
  6. Chris _Scott

    Chris _Scott NA FTW Established Member

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    Again..I'm not talking about 'size'. Paper filters and rubber hoses aren't meant to flow Alcohol.

    I know my stuff about E85 as well. Physics/Engineer and I'm swapping to E85 myself once the F2 goes on.

    Best wishes.
     
  7. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    Explain to me how its bad for paper filters and rubber hoses. If you cant have rubber hoses how are you doing yours?

    All fuel is E10 now anyways. If it was a big problem then you'd think the Big 3 would have said something about it and not made flex fuel vehicles. Gasoline is more corrosive than ethanol.
     
  8. Chris _Scott

    Chris _Scott NA FTW Established Member

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    Because I'm carbureted and have SS braided lines. The only thing I have that isn't E85 friendly is my post-pump filter is a 10micron paper element. However I still have a 100 micron SS filter before my pump.

    But I'm changing filters...going with a Waterman mechanical fuel pump.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2011
  9. Grant Theft Auto

    Grant Theft Auto I hit deer. Established Member

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    guess i shall test out E85 in the truck as soon as shes fixed then :beer:
     
  10. SSeatr

    SSeatr Active Member Established Member

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    Interesting, I learned something today! haha

    So I guess the idea is to make sure the fuel system is properly grounded. Isn't that what's going on the grounding is what is causing the static, which is bonding the molecules and ruining the fuel or oil? So the Idea would be to ground it before it grounds itself out at the injector/rails and causes the build up there?

    I am still confused a little, say this is happening in the tank wouldn't this "sludge" make its way through the lines or would it buildup in the tank or where ever it is grounding and causing static?

    I may be more confused then I think I am. haha
     
  11. 2k4Terminator

    2k4Terminator Member Established Member

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    What if every 3k miles you just run a tank of 93 through?? If of course you had 2 separate tunes.
     
  12. Grant Theft Auto

    Grant Theft Auto I hit deer. Established Member

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    +1 i was talking about that today to a friend
     
  13. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    Yes grounding is a good idea. My car is "stock" and it is not bad at all. Most of that stuff has been found in DSM's. I dont have a single issue with this. After 10k miles I had only a few spots on them. It's not an issue that i've had. Just something to think about.
     
  14. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    Get it tuned and check duty cycles of the pumps and injectors. If you dont get a tune you will most likely get a CEL for a lean condition.
     
  15. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    That is an option but it's no fun.
     
  16. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    Ok, I can see the floats and needle and seats in a carb. But Still see no issue with lines. What braided stainless hoses do you have? all my experiance with them is a rubber hose wrapped in stainless braid. There are some that are "ethanol compatible".
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2011
  17. Chris _Scott

    Chris _Scott NA FTW Established Member

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    You are correct..it is a rubber hose wrapped in stainless steel braids, but the rubber hoses are made to handle and resist corrosion from alcohols.
     
  18. SSeatr

    SSeatr Active Member Established Member

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    oh okay i did not realize or missed that it wasn't out of our cars..

    but what would be the difference between the 2 cars fuel systems?
     
  19. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    The grounding on the fuel system. Most DSM's use a metal bodied injector that doesn't get a ground.
     
  20. ZOSO

    ZOSO colorados baddest eaton Established Member

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    So today I changed out my fuel filter. This one is a "stock" replacement from autozone. I installed this in nov 2009. It has about 2500miles on it of straight E85. Never once ran gasoline through this filter. I cut it apart to see if the paper has broken down and apart like has been said will happen. This is what i found.

    2011-04-24_16-43-47_50.jpg
    2011-04-24_16-44-09_163.jpg
    2011-04-24_16-44-35_123.jpg


    Nothing wrong with this filter. The paper is tough as hell to tear apart. So more research on my end. Looked at a replacement fuel filter for a flex fuel tahoe and guess what... It's PAPER! Next I will pull the injectors to look for the "black goo" and check the status of that too.
     

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