E85 or meth?

[Klaus]

My tuner is not the biggest fan of E85 due to availability and quality. He is pushing me toward a meth kit. I am in midwest so E85 is reasonably easy to find. Goal is an additional 100 whp. Currently gen IIr VMP, supporting mods, 1050s and BAP. Would add 10 or 15% lower (2.4 upper) and either E85 or meth. Which should I do? Thanks

 

[MG0h3]

I vote E85. The blend may change throughout the year but I wouldn’t call that a quality issue. Don’t have a link handy but you can find what the blend is for the region and season. Testing only takes a min.

Biased though because I’ve never gone the meth route.


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[me32]

Change tuners, I would not choose the meth over E85. Sounds like your tuner is not familiar with E85 and would not be your best option for tuning on E85.

 

[Klaus]

I see from your sig you are running ID 1ks. Do you know what your duty cycle is with these on e85? Thanks

 

[Klaus]

Change tuners, I would not choose the meth over E85. Sounds like your tuner is not familiar with E85 and would not be your best option for tuning on E85.

Thanks I have confidence in him. Even if I did not, I do not have many options as I live in siberia and there is only one alternative and he is a proven hack.

 

[MG0h3]

I see from your sig you are running ID 1ks. Do you know what your duty cycle is with these on e85? Thanks

I don’t recall honestly.

@04sleeper is our guru on E

I’ll see if I can dig up a log but I’m guessing you’re in a Shelby?

My car came with the 1000s but if I did it again probably would’ve gone 1300s




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[me32]

I see from your sig you are running ID 1ks. Do you know what your duty cycle is with these on e85? Thanks

It will be different depending on you fuel system

 

[Klaus]

I don’t recall honestly.

@04sleeper is our guru on E

I’ll see if I can dig up a log but I’m guessing you’re in a Shelby?

My car came with the 1000s but if I did it again probably would’ve gone 1300s




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yes to Shelby. 1050s with bap

 

[c6zhombre]

Thanks I have confidence in him. Even if I did not, I do not have many options as I live in siberia and there is only one alternative and he is a proven hack.

There are plenty of options......because you don't need to see a tuner face to face. You can remote tune just as easily in your own neighborhood. Many people on here and across the nation (even world) use 04sleeper as their remote tuner. He is unparalleled when it comes to tuning fords on ethanol.

 

[MG0h3]

yes to Shelby. 1050s with bap

Last log was around 76%. 50 base pressure. But that was second gear so it'll eat a little more in 3rd I think.

 

[me32]

Last log was around 76%. 50 base pressure. But that was second gear so it'll eat a little more in 3rd I think.

The real test is in 4th. 1:1 full load

 

[MG0h3]

The real test is in 4th. 1:1 full load

yep. Kevin was ok with me doing 3rd gear pulls for datalogging. Was trying to avoid going to jail. I was checking something else during that log and I guess that was my last log. One before it stopped at 5500.

 

[GNBRETT]

850 hp is all ur gonna see out of the ID1050's with E85. They are maxed out at that point don't matter what ur combo is.

It seems like ur tuner wants to use Methanol as FUEL and not as a buffer with maybe bumping the timing up slightly. I get what ur tuner is saying cause mine says the same about E85 cause we can't get it here at the pumps but using it as fuel is not a good idea infact its a dumb one. Believe me I have wanted to do the same to make more power but its a risky gamble.

The only two shops that know anything about Mustangs in my area and have tuned 1000's of Forced Induction Mustangs over the years have told me right to my face "U want to tune for fuel with Methanol? Get a new tuner cause I aint doing it" lol

Find a new Tuner bro before he blows ur shit up! Let me tell u about my Methanol system since I installed it. The pump failed once, the lines leaked twice and the actual controller failed once. This is all in less then a year! ANY one of those going bad at WOT while tuned under "Methanol" and u can say Bye-Bye to ur motor!

U want more power? Get a bigger blower and upgrade ur fuel system. E85 is not a reasonable option for u nor is Methanol. U can still make more power on Meth but not the power ur wanting to make.

I see from your sig you are running ID 1ks. Do you know what your duty cycle is with these on e85? Thanks

 

[MG0h3]

^^I'm confused. Are you recommending meth over E85 yet your system has failed three times for various reasons?

And you're saying using E85 is a dumb idea?

 

[gimmie11s]

Absolutely not meth over e85 if e85 is readily available... no chance in hell.

Find a competent tuner.

 

[Klaus]

850 hp is all ur gonna see out of the ID1050's with E85. They are maxed out at that point don't matter what ur combo is.

It seems like ur tuner wants to use Methanol as FUEL and not as a buffer with maybe bumping the timing up slightly. I get what ur tuner is saying cause mine says the same about E85 cause we can't get it here at the pumps but using it as fuel is not a good idea infact its a dumb one. Believe me I have wanted to do the same to make more power but its a risky gamble.

The only two shops that know anything about Mustangs in my area and have tuned 1000's of Forced Induction Mustangs over the years have told me right to my face "U want to tune for fuel with Methanol? Get a new tuner cause I aint doing it" lol

Find a new Tuner bro before he blows ur shit up! Let me tell u about my Methanol system since I installed it. The pump failed once, the lines leaked twice and the actual controller failed once. This is all in less then a year! ANY one of those going bad at WOT while tuned under "Methanol" and u can say Bye-Bye to ur motor!

U want more power? Get a bigger blower and upgrade ur fuel system. E85 is not a reasonable option for u nor is Methanol. U can still make more power on Meth but not the power ur wanting to make.

This is very helpful, thanks. I think 2650 may be way to go. After smoke clears the net price to me after selling gen2 will be less than fuel system conversion to e85. Not to mention, i have a whole lot more degrees of freedom with larger blower than fuel alone. If I am not satisfied with that (spoiler alert I won't be ) I can go e85.

On point of meth, there is a really good article on LSX that makes case for both. What' an additional $650 after going return style? Very cheap insurance and totally worth it IMO.

 

[c6zhombre]

^^I'm confused. Are you recommending meth over E85 yet your system has failed three times for various reasons?

And you're saying using E85 is a dumb idea?

It's a bit choppy....but I'm pretty sure he's making the case for E85. Relying on meth for fuel is a recipe for catastrophe. So many components to go wrong.

E85 is the greatest safety net of all for your motor.....have a voltage issue WOT and fuel delivery hiccup....chances are your motor will survive a lean condition. Have a hiccup with a balls to the wall pump gas/meth tune.....say goodbye to your motor. It's melting

 

[Famine]

Im on e85 on id1050s making 700whp on vmps dyno with return setup. I would go e85 hands down. Just say no to meth.
Some of the comments make me think i should check my logs to see what dc the injectors are.

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[GNBRETT]

The odd thing is over in the Turbo Buick world Methanol is the only way to go and its used as fuel and has been for decades but u won't see Coyote tuners using it as fuel.

Maybe cause u just don't need it and can make a shit ton of power on 93 octane these days so why chance it I guess. Its definitely great insurance for a cooling effect no doubt anytime u lower ur IAT's is a plus!

I do wonder if Ken Bjones tunes it for fuel tho. I think he's probably the top coyote tuner out there right now imo.

On point of meth, there is a really good article on LSX that makes case for both. What' an additional $650 after going return style? Very cheap insurance and totally worth it IMO.

 

[KEVINS]

Most of the people you'll hear from have never used both systems and can give experienced comparisons between both but I've used Meth Inj on my GN (stock motor 91oct @ 35psi) , used it on my 2V 2002 Mustang (91 oct 26psi 720hp single M15 nozzle at full pump pressure) and still have it on my 2V but after installing a standalone computer it's now converted to a flex fuel car. Since I don't have the 91/meth tune done it's only tuned with E85 and has made 900+ @ 32psi on E85 but also spraying Meth. The reason for the meth on the E85 is b/c there's no way to automatically limit the meth depending on how much 91oct is in the tank. So the meth sprays for all shes worth no matter what fuel is in the tank.

My thoughts on both:
In order to have a solid and successful gas/meth car you need to have extra electronics installed for tuning and for the "oops" moments. YES! they do happen!!!! I'll say it again: YES THEY DO HAPPEN so don't be ignorant and think they won't happen to you.

When using meth with low octane fuel and you want to make a lot of HP you ARE using the meth as a fuel not just octane so you'll be spraying a lot of it. There is nothing wrong with this but you should design/build the entire system with this in mind and mine was:

1) Most important is a knock detector. GN's have them from the factory and I learned how valuable they are for tuning so I installed a J&S Vampire system on my Mustang before I ever got into boost. I actually learned that with 91oct I get knock at 7psi of boost! That's not much boost at all but it lit the knock gauge up like a xmas tree at 7psi. The tuner LOVES the vampire system b/c when he's making a minor tuning change he watches the knock gauge. If one single LED lights up he lets out of the throttle and changes the tune then makes another pull. So every bit of the RPM he tunes it for no knock. The Vampire system listens to each cylinder and if it hears knock it pulls timing until the knock is gone then it tries to add the timing back after 4 revolutions. VERY HI TECH stuff here but critical IMO if running meth!

2) Lean Protection Module. If at WOT and a lean condition is experienced (I have it set to anything leaner than 12.2) the ignition is shut off until I lift up on the throttle then the ignition starts up again so I can drive it normally.

With 91/meth @ 26psi and 720hp combo I started getting fuel distribution issues and started melting plugs on two cylinders on the dyno. This is when I chose to stop it at this power level and chose to switch to a standalone computer and flex fuel system.

Running E85 is the simplest cheapest way to go. IMO, both of the systems above are great to have but not necessary to have a safe system but I would still get the Lean Protection Module b/c if a lean condition occurs you'll never know it until BOOOM. Spend some $$ on electronics to monitor that expensive motor.

The easiest fuel system to have is a return style. When my Mustang was making 720 with 91/meth it was not a return system but after converting it to a return system for the E85 I realized how stupid I had been trying to make the non-return system work.. dumb idea due to the complexity of it.. Go with a return fuel system b/c it's much simpler.

Currently I use three 340 pumps, 160# inj and the meth pump runs at full pressure with a M15 nozzle. Two of the fuel pumps and the meth is activated at 7psi.

Fuel line is 1/2" feed and 1/2" return and a regulator that has a large 3/8" diameter check ball for the return line. During research on regulators I found out that some only have a tiny 1/8" hole for the return fuel even tho they are advertised with a -10 return line fitting.. Stupid...


ks