Combat Firearms "Report Card" from Iraq

[GTSpartan]

Was planning on posting this in the Chow Hall, but that doens't seem to get much traffic.


Anyway, got this interesting email grading our various military weapons currently being used. It is supposedly written by an actual Marine, but you know how reliable emails can be. At the very least, it's an intersting read.

US Weapons:

1) The M-16 rifle:

Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and weapons lights on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.

Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents show a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon):

.223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of sh*t. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm:

Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun:

Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun:

7.62 NATO (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!) Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down.

Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7..62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 50 cal heavy machine gun:

Thumbs way, way up. "Ma Deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper - puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol:

Thumbs up. Still the best pistol around out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14:

Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle:

Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers (we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. It is definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle:

Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor:

Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs.and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as sh*t to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bullsh*t about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment:

Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

13) Lights:

Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it. I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

 

[GTSpartan]

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47'sup close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

. The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like sh*t. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. ( Iran , again)

2) The RPG:

Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dogsh*t. The enemy responded to our up-armored Humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED:

The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan 's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155 mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran , who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges, in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets:

Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan 's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

Fun fact:

Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

Bad guy technology:

Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google Earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys? Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe ). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.), and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months.

Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in various "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.). These are the guys running around murdering civilians an masse and cutting heads off.

The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian) are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. They have been fighting the Russians for years. In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. They have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured, or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics: When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time! Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing AK's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time (see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan 's base was hit like this often.

When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre Gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all.

 

[Finaltheorem47]

Cool read but the guy really hates our weapons a lot.

These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room).

lol

 

[Hissssss]

Shoot 77grn through you M4 and Strike Hold sparingly and that bitch will run and "put em down"...

 

[R1der]

1) M16/M4= agree it does jam but not as much as some people like to make it seem as long as you clean it at the end of your duty day you will be good.

2) It is a ''249 SAW'' same with M16 as long as u keep up with it you will be good most of the time.

3) M9= I fn hate this weapon its like a lottery if u get a good one or not.

4) Never used one but I hear good things bout them

5) I have only used the 240 Hotel it is actually my primary weapon but I do not like it at all, it always has problems and the old M60's were even worse.

and the nod's I have only used the AN/AVS-6 they are ok but they get edgeglow fairly easy beside that they are fine.

as for everything else have not used them .

 

[pho_phizzat]

very cool

 

[harry gilbert]

Your reflections are very much in accord with my own observations and conclusions.

 

[XtraTQ]

Interesting read. Thanks for posting.

 

[oilwell1415]

Most of those weapons are now a few generations removed since the report card is now several years old, but it does seem to accurately reflect what the troops are/were saying from the sand. Lots of improvements have been made since that first went around.

 

[lobra97]

told ya...i'd take an m-14 anyday against m-16 variations.....
btw that report is old.

 

[CobraRed01]

Interesting read...thanks for posting. Seems like the same old story about the 45 automatic. Bit surprising about the 5.56 which I thought did beaucoup damage because it tumbles on impact. Anything different about the mode of fighting in Irag/Afghan versus 'Nam?? Wasn't the U.S. military moving to a new gen, tightly sealed, assault rifle like the HK417 with a 7.62 round?? Any news about improving the M16/4 and SAW??

Regarding tactics...I've always wondered if IR/heat seeking technology is used in harsh mountainous enviroments like Afghanistan. Wouldn't warm-bodied Taliban be really visible during their sneaky night passages or actual engagements using this technology?? I've never seen it shown in combat footage when seeing the enemy is a problem.

 

[Evenflow]

Sounds like those guys like the 45 more than the 9

 

[SLVRBLT]

interesting read. Thanks for posting.

+1

 

[t0ad]

I am no expert and it has been over thirty years, but I agree on the 7.62 being vastly superior to 5.56. That being said you can carry a heck of a lot more ammo in 5.56 due weapon/ammo weight and size. I have never liked 9mm. ,45 FTMFW MOFO !:beer:

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

Eh, I have mixed feelings about this. I haven't been over to Afghanistan yet but I did just spend 2 months at ITB playing with a lot of these weapons. Most of my intructors who had done multiple combat tours had similar things to say about these weapons but they also had no doubts that the 5.56 was a better performing round than the 7.62 because simply the 7.62 was so powerful that it entered and exited the body while the 5.56 created the wave effect that just tears at the flesh.

The one thing I really hope though is that the NVGs they get over there are a hell of a lot better than the ones we had to train with. And I would carry the 240 over the SAW anyday of the week. We had problems with the SAW the first time we fired it but after we learned good maintainance we had far less jams. The 240 though will give you a hard on when you fire it, especially when you have a line of 15-20 of them going all at once at the range.

 

[Silver2003Cobra]

Sounds like those guys like the 45 more than the 9

I sure as hell do.. give me a 1911 over a M9 ANY day of the year, and twice on Sunday..

(that's why my personal carry weapon is a Springfield Armory 1911-A1)..

 

[harry gilbert]

Interesting read...thanks for posting. Seems like the same old story about the 45 automatic. Bit surprising about the 5.56 which I thought did beaucoup damage because it tumbles on impact.

IIRC, the original Stoner rifle had a barrel twist of 1:12 or so, which was really not sufficient to stabilize the 55 gr. bullet; hence the tumble. Of course, that also adversely affected accuracy, and there was a propensity for foliage to deflect the bullet. The current crop of military 5.56 rifles uses a 1:7 twist, which is optimal for up to about 69gr. pill. The military FMJ projectile punches a neat hole through the target, admittedly doing a lot of tissue damage.

 

[CobraRed01]

IIRC, the original Stoner rifle had a barrel twist of 1:12 or so, which was really not sufficient to stabilize the 55 gr. bullet; hence the tumble. Of course, that also adversely affected accuracy, and there was a propensity for foliage to deflect the bullet. The current crop of military 5.56 rifles uses a 1:7 twist, which is optimal for up to about 69gr. pill. The military FMJ projectile punches a neat hole through the target, admittedly doing a lot of tissue damage.

Interesting tech. I didn't realize the difference. Thanks.

Does anyone have any info regarding my IR sensor question above? I thought it relevant considering the tech and tactical discussion above.

 

[FordSVTFan]

Was planning on posting this in the Chow Hall, but that doens't seem to get much traffic.

Sorry, the traffic in the appropriate forums does not suit your needs. However, the Chow Hall was created specifically for these types of threads and that is where this thread belongs.

 

[Redneckbmxer24]

Was planning on posting this in the Chow Hall, but that doens't seem to get much traffic.


Anyway, got this interesting email grading our various military weapons currently being used. It is supposedly written by an actual Marine, but you know how reliable emails can be. At the very least, it's an intersting read.

US Weapons:

1) The M-16 rifle:

Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They lack the ability to mount the various optical gun sights and weapons lights on the picatinny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits can't be reliably counted on to put the enemy down.

10) The M24 sniper rifle:

Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Reminghttp://www.svtperformance.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=9533020ton 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

This is a pretty old "report" and I would hardly call it that.

If you exercise common sense and keep the M16/M4's dust cover closed it will keep the sand out for the most part.

And no marine sniper has exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record with a M24 because 1. Chuck Mawhinney holds the record for most confirmed kills, and 2. because marine snipers use M40's not M24's. Shows what the idiot that wrote that report knows.