C & Ds Winner 2016 Lightning Lap

[silver srt 8]

http://www.allpar.com/news/2016/09/viper-dominates-lightning-lap-hellcat-shines-33513

 

[betiwin]

Suprised viper wasn't faster with all the aero.

 

[GTSpartan]

Suprised viper wasn't faster with all the aero.

You can tell that the drivers were not able to utilize the full capabilities of all the cars in the test.

Generally speaking, the faster the car, the bigger the balls it takes to get maximum performance.

 

[Serpent]

You can tell that the drivers were not able to utilize the full capabilities of all the cars in the test.

Generally speaking, the faster the car, the bigger the balls it takes to get maximum performance.

No kidding, Lightning Lap is a shill, using different drivers with different skill levels, repaving of the track and widening of the corners. :nonono:

I would use Laguna Seca as more of a reference. Same pro driver (Randy for the most part) and no repaving or widening!!!

A Viper ACR returned to Laguna Seca (after setting the 1:28 time > using a truck full of kumho tires to do it) and set 1:30
The C7Z was able to do 1:33

@ VIR the Camaro Z28 is supposedly 1 sec behind a Viper TA
@ Laguna Seca the Z28 is almost 4 seconds BEHIND a Viper TA

 

[2KBlackGT]

Hellcat!

 

[96 cobra]

Why not using each brand's choice of driver, or a VIR instructor?
Yes, they'd have much higher skill levels than the average owner, but I want to see the true capability of each car. Let the C&D testers explain how tricky each car may be to the avg owner in a side note...

That said, damn chevy, those 1LE times are just unreal! :beer:

 

[GTSpartan]

Let's try to keep this article in perspective, and not turn this into a shit show like the folks over on camaro and mustang 6g have.

 

[GT Premi]

No kidding, Lightning Lap is a shill, using different drivers with different skill levels, repaving of the track and widening of the corners. :nonono:

I would use Laguna Seca as more of a reference. Same pro driver (Randy for the most part) and no repaving or widening!!!

A Viper ACR returned to Laguna Seca (after setting the 1:28 time > using a truck full of kumho tires to do it) and set 1:30
The C7Z was able to do 1:33

@ VIR the Camaro Z28 is supposedly 1 sec behind a Viper TA
@ Laguna Seca the Z28 is almost 4 seconds BEHIND a Viper TA

VIR is a much longer track with much longer straights. Laguna Seca only has 1 straight that's only like a half mile, if that. LS favors cornering grip. VIR favors cornering grip AND power.

 

[IamRacerX]

The ACR is a beast. I was kinda disappointed in the GT350R time.... Was nearly a full second behind last years Z28 time.

 

[KWClutch]

Track has been repaved among some other differences. If you want to compare magazine times you need same driver, same day. If you watch the video the car had a significant more time in it. I don't want to sound like homer but I'd take all these with a grain of salt. Pobst has a faster time on this track and was over 1 second faster than the Z/28 on a couple of tracks. The thing I'm taking out of it is that everyone was saying the Cup2s were supposed to grip better but it seems clear the TrefoR are more sticky. Also the GS Vette is retarded fast and I was very surprised by the RS and the V6 1LE Camaro. Good toilet entertainment but I wouldn't call it the end all be all.

 

[AustinSN]

The ACR is a beast. I was kinda disappointed in the GT350R time.... Was nearly a full second behind last years Z28 time.

Different days-different drivers.

Even the cars compared in this test aren't great comparisons, because it's like 4 different drivers across several days. We already know that the 350R with same driver, same day, walks away from the Z28 without much fuss.

 

[scn]

Different days-different drivers.

Even the cars compared in this test aren't great comparisons, because it's like 4 different drivers across several days. We already know that the 350R with same driver, same day, walks away from the Z28 without much fuss.

Same day, same driver is definitely the way to go but the test does have some merit. It's also important to acknowledge that different cars have different strengths and might not perform as well against the same competition on every track. Your 350R vs Z28 comment is a good example of an over generalization. The R does not "walk away" from the Z28 on every track. Walking away would be what the Grand Sport did to the R in this test. Put the two cars on a tighter track, the margin would be significantly less. Most people on here understand this. Not saying you don't know this but your statement implies otherwise. Bottom line, the R is amazing and can stand on its own merit. Let the results speak for themselves.

 

[AustinSN]

Same day, same driver is definitely the way to go but the test does have some merit. It's also important to acknowledge that different cars have different strengths and might not perform as well against the same competition on every track. Your 350R vs Z28 comment is a good example of an over generalization. The R does not "walk away" from the Z28 on every track. Walking away would be what the Grand Sport did to the R in this test. Put the two cars on a tighter track, the margin would be significantly less. Most people on here understand this. Not saying you don't know this but your statement implies otherwise. Bottom line, the R is amazing and can stand on its own merit. Let the results speak for themselves.

I disagree.

I know you're a GM/Vette guy but lets think about this. I'll attempt to be as objective as possible and give some real world scenarios that I have seen, and encountered on track.

First, lets get this out of the way. With a one on one, same day, same driver, the GT350R definitely walks the Z28. (I say walking, because 1.3 seconds per lap actually feels like someone is walking away from you). This test is as variable free as we can get.

Second, weather. We don't know the weather of either days. I had a track day a while back, when I got to the track, it was 88 degrees and the sun had been beating on the track all day (126 degrees from my temperature gun). By the last runs, the temperature had dropped to 71 and there was cloud cover (I didn't measure the track surface but I bet it was around 100 degrees), both myself and my buddy picked up 3 seconds on a 2 minute track. You could argue that the faster tires (Trofeo R and SC2) can stand up to the heat a bit better before they start to lose grip, but there will still be a difference.

Third, and most importantly, drivers. We know who drove the GT350R, because it's filmed but I can't find anything that shows who drove the Z28. If this was at least the same driver, I would be less aggressive about this even though it's a different day.

This article is great to hear about driving characteristics (in the videos), but when it comes down to the numbers, too many variables for me. Even if the outcome is in my favor.

I have a Focus RS and I know it's not 10 seconds faster per lap than the Golf R. Or 7 seconds faster than the STI.

 

[jsd512]

Too many variables to discuss why one car did what it did and another couldn't do what you expected it to do.

 

[ZYBORG]

Loving the excuses on how the data showing the z28 being faster at this track than the 350R, get discredited... Lol.

Had it been the other way around, the fanboys would talk nonstop on how comprehensive and informative the Lighning Lap data was.

Lets not mention how the track is improved, since the z28 ran it, to the 350Rs advantage.

 

[ZYBORG]

Historical Lap Times

RANK CLASS CAR TIME
1
LL5
2015 Porsche 918 Spyder
2:43.1
2
CONCEPT CAR
2016 Lexus RC F GT Concept
2:43.2
3
LL4
2016 Dodge Viper ACR
2:44.2
4
LL3
2015 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2:44.6
5
LL5
2016 Ferrari 488GTB
2:45.1
6
LL5
2015 McLaren 650S Spider
2:45.8
7
LL5
2009 Mosler MT900S
2:45.9
8
LL4
2016 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
2:47.0
9
LL3
2017 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
2:47.1
10
LL4
2016 McLaren 570S
2:47.4
11
LL5
2015 Lamborghini Huracán LP610-4
2:47.5
12
LL3
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR coupe
2:48.6
13
LL4
2015 Nissan GT-R NISMO
2:49.4
14
LL5
2012 Mosler Photon
2:49.8
15
LL4
2014 SRT Viper TA
2:49.9
16
LL4
2012 Ferrari 458 Italia
2:49.9
17
LL4
2017 Acura NSX
2:50.2
18
LL4
2015 Porsche 911 GT3
2:50.4
19
LL3
2012 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
2:50.7
20
LL5
2014 Ferrari F12berlinetta
2:50.8
21
LL3
2015 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28
2:50.9
22
LL4
2016 Mercedes-AMG GT S
2:51.0
23
LL4
2014 Porsche 911 Turbo S
2:51.2
24
LL2
2016 Ford Mustang Shelby GT350R
2:51.8
25
LL5
2010 Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera
2:51.8
26
LL3
2009 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
2:51.8
27
KIT CAR
2009 KTM X-Bow
2:52.3
28
LL4
2016 BMW M4 GTS
2:52.9
29
LL3
2012 Nissan GT-R
2:53.2
30
LL3
2011 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2:53.5
31
LL2
2014 Chevrolet Corvette Stingray
2:53.8
32
LL5
2010 Lamborghini Murciélago LP670-4 SV
2:53.9
33
LL3
2016 Porsche Cayman GT4
2:54.0
34
LL5
2008 Ferrari 430 Scuderia
2:54.6
35
LL2
2017 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
2:54.8
36
LL5
2012 Lexus LFA
2:55.1
37
LL3
2009 Nissan GT-R
2:55.6
38
LL4
2011 Porsche 911 GT3 RS
2:55.9
39
LL4
2017 Audi R8 V-10 Plus
2:56.1
40
LL3
2016 Cadillac CTS-V
2:56.8
41
LL3
2008 Dodge Viper SRT10
2:57.4
42
LL4
2014 Audi R8 V-10 Plus
2:57.5
43
LL2
2013 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
2:57.5
44
LL4
2011 Porsche 911 Turbo S
2:57.5
45
KIT CAR
2009 Ariel Atom 3
2:57.6
46
LL3
2012 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Black Series
2:58.0
47
LL4
2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG
2:58.0
48
LL3
2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
2:58.2
49
LL2
2010 Chevrolet Corvette Grand Sport
2:58.8
50
LL3
2013 Porsche 911 Carrera S
2:58.9
51
LL3
2009 Nissan GT-R (all-season tires)
2:59.0
52
LL4
2014 Mercedes-Benz SL63 AMG
2:59.1
53
LL4
2014 Jaguar XKR-S GT
2:59.1
54
LL3
2015 Mercedes-AMG C63 S
2:59.2
55
LL3
2016 Cadillac ATS-V coupe
2:59.2
56
LL4
2010 Audi R8 5.2 FSI Quattro
2:59.5
57
LL2
2016 Cadillac ATS-V sedan
2:59.8
58
LL3
2014 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG S-model
3:00.1
59
LL3
2013 Ford Shelby GT500
3:00.6
60
LL3
2015 BMW M4
3:00.7
61
LL4
2012 Porsche Panamera Turbo S
3:00.7
62
LL4
2006 Ford GT
3:00.7
63
LL3
2015 Jaguar F-type R coupe
3:01.0
64
LL3
2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z06
3:01.1
65
LL2
2008 Chevrolet Corvette Z51
3:01.2
66
LL2
2013 Chevrolet Camaro SS 1LE
3:01.5
67
LL3
2006 Dodge Viper SRT10 coupe
3:01.6
68
LL3
2007 Porsche 911 GT3
3:01.8
69
LL2
2016 BMW M2
3:01.9
70
LL4
2013 Jaguar XKR-S
3:02.1
71
LL4
2016 Jaguar F-type Project 7
3:02.2
72
LL3
2014 Porsche Cayman S
3:02.6
73
LL2
2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca
3:02.8
74
LL3
2014 Audi RS7
3:03.0
75
LL3
2016 Dodge Charger SRT Hellcat
3:03.5
76
LL2
2007 Chevrolet Corvette Z51
3:03.6
77
LL3
2011 Porsche Boxster Spyder
3:03.8
78
LL2
2016 Ford Focus RS
3:03.9
79
LL3
2012 Porsche Cayman R
3:03.9
80
LL1
2017 Chevrolet Camaro 1LE
3:04.0
81
LL2
2011 Ford Shelby GT500
3:04.0
82
LL2
2009 Cadillac CTS-V
3:04.0
83
LL3
2013 Porsche Boxster S
3:04.2
84
LL3
2011 Cadillac CTS-V coupe
3:04.2
85
LL3
2013 Audi RS5
3:04.3
86
LL3
2007 Lotus Exige S
3:04.5
87
LL3
2007 Audi R8
3:04.6
88
LL3
2013 BMW M6
3:04.7
89
LL2
2012 Audi TT RS
3:04.8
90
LL3
2012 Mercedes-Benz CLS63 AMG
3:04.9
91
LL3
2009 Lotus Exige S 260 Sport
3:05.0
92
LL2
2015 Ford Mustang GT
3:05.2
93
LL3
2013 BMW M5
3:05.2
94
LL3
2012 Lotus Evora S
3:05.3
95
LL2
2011 Lexus IS F
3:05.4
96
LL2
2009 BMW M3
3:05.4
97
LL2
2008 BMW M3
3:05.6
98
LL3
2015 Lexus RC F
3:05.8
99
LL3
2009 Porsche 911 Carrera S
3:05.8
100
LL3
2009 Porsche Cayman S
3:05.8
101
LL4
2007 Porsche 911 Turbo
3:05.8
102
LL3
2016 Lexus GS F
3:05.9
103
LL2
2014 Mercedes-Benz CLA45 AMG
3:05.9
104
LL2
2007 Ford Shelby GT500
3:05.9
105
LL3
2012 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG coupe
3:06.3
106
RACE CAR
Copeland Motorsports Mazda MX-5 Miata Cup Car
3:06.4
107
LL3
2010 Jaguar XKR
3:06.4
108
LL2
2008 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG
3:06.5
109
LL2
2011 BMW 1-series M
3:06.6
110
LL3
2014 Jaguar XFR-S
3:06.7
111
LL2
2014 Cadillac CTS Vsport
3:06.8
112
LL3
2011 Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG
3:06.9
113
LL2
2014 BMW M235i
3:07.2
114
LL2
2010 Ford Shelby GT500
3:07.4
115
LL2
2016 Audi TTS
3:07.7
116
LL3
2011 Lotus Evora
3:08.3
117
LL2
2009 Audi TTS
3:08.4
118
LL2
2011 Ford Mustang GT
3:08.6
119
LL2
2015 Alfa Romeo 4C
3:08.8
120
LL3
2011 Jaguar XFR
3:08.9
121
LL2
2006 Lotus Elise
3:09.2
122
LL2
2006 Chevrolet Corvette Z51
3:09.3
123
LL2
2012 Dodge Challenger SRT8 392
3:09.4
124
LL2
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS
3:09.5
125
LL2
2006 Porsche Cayman S
3:09.5
126
LL3
2013 Audi S6
3:09.8
127
LL3
2006 BMW M6
3:10.0
128
LL2
2012 Dodge Charger SRT8
3:10.1
129
LL3
2012 BMW Z4 sDrive35is
3:10.4
130
LL2
2015 Subaru WRX STI
3:10.5
131
LL2
2007 BMW 335i coupe
3:10.5
132
LL2
2010 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution SE
3:10.6
133
LL2
2010 Audi S4
3:10.8
134
LL2
2007 Ford Shelby GT500
3:11.0
135
SUV
2012 BMW X5 M
3:11.1
136
LL3
2007 Audi RS4
3:11.2
137
LL2
2015 Audi S3
3:11.2
138
LL2
2007 BMW Z4 M coupe
3:11.7
139
LL2
2009 Nissan 370Z NISMO
3:12.0
140
LL2
2015 Volkswagen Golf R
3:12.3
141
LL1
2011 Ford Mustang V-6
3:12.5
142
LL1
2006 Nissan 350Z Track
3:12.5
143
LL1
2008 Chevrolet Cobalt SS
3:13.0
144
LL2
2012 BMW 335i Sport Line
3:13.2
145
LL1
2010 Ford Mustang GT
3:13.3
146
LL2
2008 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:13.3
147
LL2
2014 Lexus IS350 F Sport
3:13.4
148
LL1
2006 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution MR
3:13.5
149
LL2
2008 BMW 135i
3:13.7
150
LL2
2012 BMW 335is
3:13.8
151
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2011 Subaru Impreza WRX STI sedan
3:13.8
152
LL1
2011 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-spec
3:13.8
153
LL1
2013 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 R-spec
3:13.9
154
LL2
2012 Volkswagen Golf R
3:14.0
155
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2008 Lexus IS F
3:14.0
156
LL1
2015 Volkswagen GTI
3:14.6
157
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2008 Audi S5
3:14.6
158
LL1
2010 Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8
3:14.8
159
LL2
2008 Honda S2000 CR
3:15.0
160
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2015 Mini John Cooper Works Hardtop
3:15.4
161
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2015 Subaru WRX
3:15.5
162
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2015 Ford Mustang EcoBoost
3:15.6
163
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2007 Pontiac Solstice GXP
3:15.7
164
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2007 Mazdaspeed 3
3:16.0
165
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2010 Mazdaspeed 3
3:16.2
166
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2008 Dodge Challenger SRT8
3:16.3
167
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2011 Subaru Impreza WRX Sedan
3:16.5
168
LL1
2009 Subaru Impreza WRX
3:16.6
169
LL2
2008 Lotus Elise SC
3:16.6
170
LL2
2010 Mazda RX-8 R3
3:16.7
171
LL1
2009 Mini Cooper JCW
3:17.1
172
ELECTRIC CAR
2015 Tesla Model S P85D
3:17.4
173
SUV
2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT8
3:17.4
174
LL2
2008 Infiniti G37S
3:17.5
175
LL1
2014 Ford Focus ST
3:17.6
176
COP CAR
2013 Dodge Charger Pursuit
3:17.8
177
LL2
2006 Dodge Charger SRT8
3:18.2
178
LL2
2012 Mini Cooper Coupe JCW
3:18.4
179
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2013 Subaru BRZ
3:18.6
180
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2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STI
3:19.0
181
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2006 Mazda RX-8
3:19.0
182
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2015 Volkswagen GTI
3:19.3
183
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2010 Volkswagen GTI
3:19.3
184
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2014 Ford Fiesta ST
3:20.4
185
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2006 Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged
3:20.6
186
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2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata Club
3:20.8
187
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2008 Dodge Caliber SRT4
3:20.8
188
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2006 Ford Mustang GT
3:20.9
189
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2013 Ford Focus ST
3:21.4
190
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2008 Volkswagen R32
3:21.8
191
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2007 Mini Cooper S
3:22.9
192
COP CAR
2013 Chevrolet Caprice PPV
3:23.0
193
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2012 Honda Civic Si
3:24.1
194
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2008 Honda Civic Si Mugen
3:24.8
195
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2007 Volkswagen GTI
3:25.1
196
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2006 Honda Civic Si
3:26.5
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2008 Volvo C30 Version 2.0
3:26.6
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2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
3:27.3
199
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2012 Volkswagen Jetta GLI
3:27.3
200
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2006 Mazda MX-5
3:29.3
201
ECONOBOX
2015 Honda Fit EX

 

[AustinSN]

Loving the excuses on how the data showing the z28 being faster at this track than the 350R, get discredited... Lol.

Had it been the other way around, the fanboys would talk nonstop on how comprehensive and informative the Lighning Lap data was.

Lets not mention how the track is improved, since the z28 ran it, to the 350Rs advantage.

At least do some research on the track.

The Z28 ran on VIR like 8 months after it was repaved.

The track opened up a $2m lawsuit in February of this year due to how poorly the track had deteriorated and they started work last month.

The C&D lightning lap was held in June.

The Z28 had a far superior track to run on, if you want to go there. The track was bad enough that they had to repave it during peak season.



Also, you can't be so hypocritical. Remember when the S550 nosed out the 1LE at Motown?

Yeah.. Me neither..

So what is that now, 1LE : 10, GT : 1 ? Lol...

In all the tests where both get compared side by side the 1LE has taken the victory by a pretty confy margin. You are talking about 2 different tests done on totally different days by different people, and to make it even more laughable the "win margin" that you are talking about was "0.02". :lol1:

Not sure if you realize this but that test where the gt squeaked out the win was done on a different day / different drivers. Not really a good gauge as opposed to the other tests where they have been head to head.

 

[scn]

I disagree.

I know you're a GM/Vette guy but lets think about this. I'll attempt to be as objective as possible and give some real world scenarios that I have seen, and encountered on track.

First, lets get this out of the way. With a one on one, same day, same driver, the GT350R definitely walks the Z28. (I say walking, because 1.3 seconds per lap actually feels like someone is walking away from you). This test is as variable free as we can get.

Second, weather. We don't know the weather of either days. I had a track day a while back, when I got to the track, it was 88 degrees and the sun had been beating on the track all day (126 degrees from my temperature gun). By the last runs, the temperature had dropped to 71 and there was cloud cover (I didn't measure the track surface but I bet it was around 100 degrees), both myself and my buddy picked up 3 seconds on a 2 minute track. You could argue that the faster tires (Trofeo R and SC2) can stand up to the heat a bit better before they start to lose grip, but there will still be a difference.

Third, and most importantly, drivers. We know who drove the GT350R, because it's filmed but I can't find anything that shows who drove the Z28. If this was at least the same driver, I would be less aggressive about this even though it's a different day.

This article is great to hear about driving characteristics (in the videos), but when it comes down to the numbers, too many variables for me. Even if the outcome is in my favor.

I have a Focus RS and I know it's not 10 seconds faster per lap than the Golf R. Or 7 seconds faster than the STI.

Ok, here we go.
1- I agree that same day, same driver is preferable to the format that Car & Driver uses. I said as much.
2- I'm a car enthusiast, not a brand loyal guy. I happen to know quite a few people in the Vette program and have for some time. Heck, I grew up around many and am not shy about my affection for the Vette. That said, I do not own a GM product and am not interested in anything other than the Corvette, Camaro, and maybe the ATS-V ( which has the worst dash cluster this side of a 90's Hyundai.) I am actually in the process of ordering an RS lol!
3- Tracks are different and yield different results. The 350R has not and will not walk away from the Z28 on every track. In this test, the ACR is marginally faster than the Z06. Yes, the drivers here are a major factor but Jim has run competitive laps to Chris in the ACR. Not faster to my knowledge, but competitive. The same is not true when you shift to Leguna Seca. That aero on the ACR allows it to play to the courses demand on corner speed, balance, and most importantly, BRAKES.
One thing that is annoying with LL the last couple years is the repaving of the track. From what I've heard, the new sections of the track are actually quite "green" and have produced slower times. Either way, the 350R produced a hell of a time. I'm impressed and almost everyone else is as well.

 

[AustinSN]

Ok, here we go.
1- I agree that same day, same driver is preferable to the format that Car & Driver uses. I said as much.
2- I'm a car enthusiast, not a brand loyal guy. I happen to know quite a few people in the Vette program and have for some time. Heck, I grew up around many and am not shy about my affection for the Vette. That said, I do not own a GM product and am not interested in anything other than the Corvette, Camaro, and maybe the ATS-V ( which has the worst dash cluster this side of a 90's Hyundai.) I am actually in the process of ordering an RS lol!
3- Tracks are different and yield different results. The 350R has not and will not walk away from the Z28 on every track. In this test, the ACR is marginally faster than the Z06. Yes, the drivers here are a major factor but Jim has run competitive laps to Chris in the ACR. Not faster to my knowledge, but competitive. The same is not true when you shift to Leguna Seca. That aero on the ACR allows it to play to the courses demand on corner speed, balance, and most importantly, BRAKES.
One thing that is annoying with LL the last couple years is the repaving of the track. From what I've heard, the new sections of the track are actually quite "green" and have produced slower times. Either way, the 350R produced a hell of a time. I'm impressed and almost everyone else is as well.

I would really like to see both cars run at LS (with the same fast driver), it would be very close.

I do agree that the R won't be faster than the Z28 at every track. If you put both cars on an autocross course, I would probably expect the Z28 to get the win but at VIR it doesn't make a lot of sense because it's more of a power track.

The C7Z definitely has that advantage at VIR, I think that's why Jim can somewhat keep tail with Chris in the ACR but at LS, it's all over.

 

[blk02edge]

Loving the excuses on how the data showing the z28 being faster at this track than the 350R, get discredited... Lol.

Had it been the other way around, the fanboys would talk nonstop on how comprehensive and informative the Lighning Lap data was.

Lets not mention how the track is improved, since the z28 ran it, to the 350Rs advantage.

Honestly, you are really one of the worst on this site for nit picking these stupid little details. You simply cannot argue that when pobst ran both z/28 and 350R on the same day that the 350r is faster. There is no opinion here, simple fact