Boss 302 was the motivation, not the ZL1

[Shaker1]

again, so you guys are saying that it is 100% absolute pure coincidence that the GT500 is getting the biggest performance improvement we've ever seen in one model year of the mustang in the same year as the camaro ZL1 is showing up on the scene? i'm just trying to wrap my head around this illogical thought here, i might be too intelligent to accept this theory...

Actually, It appears you are the only one who keeps pounding that drum. Most everyone else is saying there are multiple factors coming into play. This whole debate is based on conjecture and supposition anyhow. Still, correlation does not prove causation, no matter how intelligent one believes they are. There is nothing illogical about maintaining an open mind where there is no conclusive proof. In fact, I believe the opposite is true. I give the guy the benefit of the doubt when he says they made choices based on keeping the GT500 a big step ahead of the Boss. After all, I give you the benefit of the doubt that despite being stubborn and argumentative, you are probably still a nice guy.:beer:

 

[blueovalfan]

WTF are some of you guys thinking LOL.

Really? Manufacturers don't try to one up each other? The WHOLE reason the camaro even EXITS is because of chevy realizing there is a market for that type of car after seeing the huge sales from the mustang in '64 from then on they've been competing (minus the hiatus the camaro had). Ever hear of the muscle car wars? Thats all that was, manufacturers trying to one up each other. By you guys' way of thinking we were just going to the moon anyways and it had nothing to do with the cold war lol

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

Actually, It appears you are the only one who keeps pounding that drum. Most everyone else is saying there are multiple factors coming into play. This whole debate is based on conjecture and supposition anyhow. Still, correlation does not prove causation, no matter how intelligent one believes they are. There is nothing illogical about maintaining an open mind where there is no conclusive proof. In fact, I believe the opposite is true. I give the guy the benefit of the doubt when he says they made choices based on keeping the GT500 a big step ahead of the Boss. After all, I give you the benefit of the doubt that despite being stubborn and argumentative, you are probably still a nice guy.:beer:

do you give Al O the benefit of the doubt when he says that the ZL1 will set performance benchmarks for the segment? or is that different... just sayin;-)

i'm just as stubborn and argumentative in person, except you'll actually be able to see me having a good time with it instead of looking like a keyboard warrior:-D

WTF are some of you guys thinking LOL.

Really? Manufacturers don't try to one up each other? The WHOLE reason the camaro even EXITS is because of chevy realizing there is a market for that type of car after seeing the huge sales from the mustang in '64 from then on they've been competing (minus the hiatus the camaro had). Ever hear of the muscle car wars? Thats all that was, manufacturers trying to one up each other. By you guys' way of thinking we were just going to the moon anyways and it had nothing to do with the cold war lol

holy shit! i never thought i would ever see any more logic in this thread!!!

:beer:

 

[GarageLogic]

you mean even though it's coming out within 4 months of the ZL1. and 1 year after the boss 302. the fact that it's not coming out the same time of the year as every other GT500 proves that it's in answer to the boss 302 and not the ZL1, is that what your saying? is that seriously your argument???:dw:

Okay, let me repeat for effect, every model year GT500 has hit dealer showrooms the same time of the year +/- acouple of weeks since they were introduced. 2013 will be no different.

It's obvious to me that GM, knowing the general timeframe GT500's usually hit showrooms each year, were the ones who made a specific effort to get the ZL1 in customers hands prior to the next version of the GT500 being delivered. Why else would they elect to have a short run of 2012 ZL1's instead of delaying release and producing both coupe and convertibles as 2013 models?

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

Okay, let me repeat for effect, every model year GT500 has hit dealer showrooms the same time of the year +/- acouple of weeks since they were introduced. 2013 will be no different.

It's obvious to me that GM, knowing the general timeframe GT500's usually hit showrooms each year, were the ones who made a specific effort to get the ZL1 in customers hands prior to the next version of the GT500 being delivered. Why else would they elect to have a short run of 2012 ZL1's instead of delaying release and producing both coupe and convertibles as 2013 models?

why else would ford add 100 extra HP to the shelby GT500, in the same year that the camaro ZL1 is being released? the 2 cars will both be sold in 2012, will go on sale 4 months apart, and one will be labeled a 2012 and the other will be labeled a 2013.
again, the ZL1 is being released in the year of 2012 as a 2012 model. the GT500 - with 100 extra HP, carbon fiber driveshaft, 202MPH top speed, etc. - will be released in the year of 2012 as a 2013 model. jamal hameedi is quoted as saying that the GT500 is getting these improvements in response to the boss 302 - which will have been released 1 year earlier than both the 2013 GT500 and 2012 ZL1 will go on sale. anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that's bullshit. if that were the case, the GT500 would've gotten these improvements at the same time as the introduction of the boss 302. instead, the GT500 is getting these improvements in the same year as the camaro ZL1 is being introduced.

if that sounded repetitive, it was intentional.


edit: wait a second...

I would agree. And that would give credence to the assertion that the 2013 GT500 was being developed well before Al O.'s memo tothe Camaro faithful. I suppose the idea that the 2013 is some sort of response to the ZL1 does make certain folks feel good, but it's doubtful if that was the case.

are you seriously saying here that ford was absolutely 100% ****ing clueless about the existence of the camaro ZL1 before GM officially released it??? your out of your mind:dw:

 

[brianz426]

I'm beginning to see that Ry_Trapp0 is the friendliest most intelligent keyboard warrior on here.

 

[Tob]

I sorta half believed Ahmeed,Apu,or whatever his name is. Unless you're a dyed in the wool Shelby nut,the GT500 really didn't justify its price point since the introduction of the Boss.

C'mon Rusty.

Speaking of price point, Ford has really bumped things up in just a few, short years...

There's that word, inexpensive, which is really the charm of the GT500. Although pricing has not been set, word is that the coupe will start at around $40,000...

5 Questions with Carroll Shelby - First Drive - RoadandTrack.com

GM went for displacement and Ford stuck tenaciously with less displacement and more efficient designs. GM went with IRS on the Camaro, and Ford refined the SRA. GM adds weight and Ford eliminates it. GM goes all tech heavy and Ford sticks with the basics...

Very well articulated.

This whole debate is based on conjecture and supposition anyhow. Still, correlation does not prove causation, no matter how intelligent one believes they are. There is nothing illogical about maintaining an open mind where there is no conclusive proof.

See my comment above.

:thumbsup:

 

[Nathan'sTsi]

why else would ford add 100 extra HP to the shelby GT500, in the same year that the camaro ZL1 is being released? the 2 cars will both be sold in 2012, will go on sale 4 months apart, and one will be labeled a 2012 and the other will be labeled a 2013.
again, the ZL1 is being released in the year of 2012 as a 2012 model. the GT500 - with 100 extra HP, carbon fiber driveshaft, 202MPH top speed, etc. - will be released in the year of 2012 as a 2013 model. jamal hameedi is quoted as saying that the GT500 is getting these improvements in response to the boss 302 - which will have been released 1 year earlier than both the 2013 GT500 and 2012 ZL1 will go on sale. anyone with a modicum of intelligence knows that's bullshit. if that were the case, the GT500 would've gotten these improvements at the same time as the introduction of the boss 302. instead, the GT500 is getting these improvements in the same year as the camaro ZL1 is being introduced.

if that sounded repetitive, it was intentional.


edit: wait a second...

are you seriously saying here that ford was absolutely 100% ****ing clueless about the existence of the camaro ZL1 before GM officially released it??? your out of your mind:dw:

I don't think you are 100% right. It wouldn't make much sense marketing wise to realse two revamped Mustangs in the same year that would compete with each other for sales. Also, it was all over the forums when the boss was introduced that people felt it was the superior car, and thje GT500 was just too expesnsive and over rated. The 2013 was already under development at that time and the TVS was already accepted to be part of the deal. To me, it makes more sense to let the Boss enjoy the limelight and all of the posative press, and then hold the GT500 for when the General tries to steal the limlight form the Boss. It was made clear that they did not want GM to steal any thunder with the ZL1's announcement.

Now, I am sure the ZL1 was discussed through some of the development, but in the begining of the 2013's development, the "z28" was on again and off again for months at a time due the GM's financial woes. I believe it was more centered around WHEN they would offer and announce the GT500 as opposed to what it would include.

 

[GarageLogic]

why else would ford add 100 extra HP to the shelby GT500, in the same year that the camaro ZL1 is being released? the 2 cars will both be sold in 2012, will go on sale 4 months apart, and one will be labeled a 2012 and the other will be labeled a 2013.

Thank you Captain Obvious! I think we're all aware that both the cars will be out at the same time in 2012 regardless of what model year the car is labeled.

are you seriously saying here that ford was absolutely 100% ****ing clueless about the existence of the camaro ZL1 before GM officially released it??? your out of your mind:dw:

Who suggested that?

There is an old business adage that anyone with any intelligence would be aware of that says if you spend your time on what the competition is doing versus concentrating on improving your own product, it is almost guaranteed that you will fall behind in your marketplace.;-)

 

[Tob]

Brodie, as much as I agree with the adage you quoted, all the major auto manufacturers still reverse engineer each other's latest offerings.

When I was an undergraduate, one of my production scheduling classes spent some time at Harrison Radiator (which later became part of Delphi). The test cells in their engineering building had a number of vehicles from various other auto makers in various states of assembly as well as some complete cars being tested on a dyno in temperature controlled rooms.

When I asked why they felt it necessary to do this, the GM rep told us that they all do it and that if you didn't keep up - you'd fall behind. That was 1986 and I'm sure they've been doing business that way for almost a century now.

 

[evolve]

I love wurst. Bratwurst, rotwurst, and knockwurst yummy!

This.